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2019 Mid-Bath Power Center Failure
This past weekend we were at an RV park a few hours from home and we had the unnerving experience of smelling something electrical burning and it was the Parallax power center. This was our second trip since having an inverter installed a few months ago and the first time since then of extended use of the air conditioner. I'll be contacting the shop today that installed the inverter and I was wondering if there could be any relationship between the inverter installation and the power center failure.

A few questions:

If the cooling fan in the power center stops working, could that have caused the problem ?

If we hadn't been in the coach to smell the problem, could this have resulted in a fire ?

Is there a better power center replacement for the Parallax 8300 ?
2019 MB and 2010 Honda Fit
Re: 2019 Mid-Bath Power Center Failure
Reply #1 –
Quote from: Bill M  - 
This past weekend we were at an RV park a few hours from home and we had the unnerving experience of smelling something electrical burning and it was the Parallax power center. This was our second trip since having an inverter installed a few months ago and the first time since then of extended use of the air conditioner.
If the cooling fan in the power center stops working, could that have caused the problem ?
If we hadn't been in the coach to smell the problem, could this have resulted in a fire ?
Is there a better power center replacement for the Parallax 8300 ?

Odds are that one of the wires inside the Power Center’s 120-VAC side loosened and burned. This is a common problem, especially with long-term A/C use. The damage usually can be repaired without replacing the Power Center
We have advised for many years to periodically check all the wires inside the Power Center for tightness and loose connections. Make sure to disconnect all power, both 12-volt and 120-volt, before beginning this project.

Larry
Larry
2003 23.5' Front Lounge, since new.  Previously 1983 22' Front Lounge.
Tow vehicles  2020 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2001 Jeep Cherokee
Photo Collection: Lazy Daze
Re: 2019 Mid-Bath Power Center Failure
Reply #2 –
Quote from: Bill M  - 
This past weekend we were at an RV park a few hours from home and we had the unnerving experience of smelling something electrical burning and it was the Parallax power center. This was our second trip since having an inverter installed a few months ago and the first time since then of extended use of the air conditioner.
If the cooling fan in the power center stops working, could that have caused the problem ?
If we hadn't been in the coach to smell the problem, could this have resulted in a fire ?
Is there a better power center replacement for the Parallax 8300 ?

Odds are one or more of the wires inside the Power Center’s 120-VAC side loosened and burned; it is a common problem, especially with long-term A/C use. The damage usually can be repaired without replacing the Power Center.
I doubt if the new inverter had anything to do with this issue.

Larry
Larry
2003 23.5' Front Lounge, since new.  Previously 1983 22' Front Lounge.
Tow vehicles  2020 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2001 Jeep Cherokee
Photo Collection: Lazy Daze
Re: 2019 Mid-Bath Power Center Failure
Reply #3 –
Had this happen with our converter. Removing the two screws holding the plate securing the breakers will reveal the problem and damage...

Steve
2004 FL
2013 Honda Fit
Re: 2019 Mid-Bath Power Center Failure
Reply #4 –
Quote from: Bill M  - 
Is there a better power center replacement for the Parallax 8300 ?

If you do decide to replace the Parallax, this is a good replacement.  It is lithium battery compatible. 

4600 Series Upgrade or Replacement Power Converters
Greg & Victoria
2017 Mid-Bath  “Nocona” towing a manual 2015 Forester
Previously a 1985 TK
SKP #61264
Re: 2019 Mid-Bath Power Center Failure
Reply #5 –
Hi Greg; While that is a good converter, it really is just the 12 VDC supply for the coach and to charge the batteries.
   The problem here is the AC load center. Breakers and wiring for the 110V AC part of the coach.  Likely the connection to the Air conditioner circuit breaker. That breaker 'clips' on to the AC buss bar in the back, and should be ok. The black wire from the 110vAC romex lead going to the air con, is connected to a more accessible area at the bottom of the A/C breaker. Likely that part developed a poor connection. Heat from that may have melted some insulation on that romex wire.  Similarly because of the large amount of power used by the A/C unit, the connection of the corresponding white neutral wire may have also developed a poor connection at the neutral buss bar. So those screws, and at the base of the A/C circuit breaker need to be tightened.
   Like most objects that get hot, copper swells up when running current. It shrinks a little when it cools down. Repeated cycles of hot/cold causes the copper to 'creep' away from a good contact. Tightening the screws holding the copper wire in place in the connection point, will correct this creep. Every 4-5 years is a good interval to check those wires.  The grounds (bare wires) should never conduct electricity, so they should be ok.  The neutral (white wires) are all in one place and easy to check for tightness. (don't strip out the heads, and don't snap any off!).  RonB
RonB (Bostick) living in San Diego
Original owner of "Bluebelle" a '99 TKB
Re: 2019 Mid-Bath Power Center Failure
Reply #6 –
The converter should be fine, there is no need to replace.
As Steve and I have said, the issue is behind the plate in the Power Center that covers the  120-volt breakers.
The large current flow when the A/C cycles on will stress any poor, loose connection, eventually burning the spot where the wire(s) are secured. This is why I recommend checking all the connections in the Power Center every two years, even more so if the rig is used frequently or is full-time.
 
The air conditioner is the major cause of this problem, the A/C pulls several times more power for the split second when the compressor cycles on. This surge can overheat a poor connection.
The long-term cure is to install a Soft-Start on the A/C, which starts the compressor slowly without the damaging
surge of power.  Our LD’s A/C has been damaged twice by brown-outs, and installing a soft-start several years ago eliminated further problems.
SoftStartRV – The RV AC Soft Start For Any RV Air Conditioner

Larry
Larry
2003 23.5' Front Lounge, since new.  Previously 1983 22' Front Lounge.
Tow vehicles  2020 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2001 Jeep Cherokee
Photo Collection: Lazy Daze
Re: 2019 Mid-Bath Power Center Failure
Reply #7 –
I like Larry’s recommendation. Reducing inrush current spike thermal loosening of the wiring connector screws would be yet another benefit of adding the SoftStart A/C device.
2013 27’ Mid-Bath
2005 Honda CR-V
Re: 2019 Mid-Bath Power Center Failure
Reply #8 –
I'm a novice with electrical. Should I be seeing damaged/burned wires in the power center ?

Bill
2019 MB and 2010 Honda Fit
Re: 2019 Mid-Bath Power Center Failure
Reply #9 –
I see no issues there - if there is no sign of charred insulation or burn marks anywhere here, it was not the problem. Still, tighten all the setscrews securing wires - this section is retained if the 12V converter unit is replaced...

Steve
2004 FL
2013 Honda Fit
Re: 2019 Mid-Bath Power Center Failure
Reply #10 –
So after checking the power center connections for looseness (with all 120V and 12V power sources isolated), how should Bill proceed?
Greg & Victoria
2017 Mid-Bath  “Nocona” towing a manual 2015 Forester
Previously a 1985 TK
SKP #61264
Re: 2019 Mid-Bath Power Center Failure
Reply #11 –
Quote from: HiLola  - 
So after checking the power center connections for looseness (with all 120V and 12V power sources isolated), how should Bill proceed?

Look for - sign of charred insulation or burn marks anywhere else...

Steve
2004 FL
2013 Honda Fit
Re: 2019 Mid-Bath Power Center Failure
Reply #12 –
Thanks for that photo. Still looks so clean!  That double handle circuit breaker should have two black wires coming out at the bottom. I could only clearly see one. That white wire at the left isn't connected to that circuit breaker and is just passing nearby. I would pull it slightly away from that breaker to have a better look at whatever black wire should be there. (microwave?)
       If you are really sure it was related to the Air Con, One other member had a wire nut connection between the Marinco plug socket and Romex cable going to the entire power distribution center fail.  Didn't, but could have started a fire since it was in close proximity to wood framing.  That was the back side of the incoming shore power wire socket.  This socket had pigtail wires coming out (about 6" #10 leads). I'm not sure where on a MidBath you could access this.
      Another possible location would be at the insides of the air conditioner, in the ceiling at the incoming connections. You might need to pull off the plastic ceiling cover to get to this. Inspecting these connections after 6 years isn't a waste of time. I have found plenty of marginal installations that way. Before they became problems.    RonB
RonB (Bostick) living in San Diego
Original owner of "Bluebelle" a '99 TKB
Re: 2019 Mid-Bath Power Center Failure
Reply #13 –
Since you feel the smell was coming from the Power Center, check the wiring behind the PC.
Remove the cabinet panel on the right side of the  Power Center to access the wiring behind it. The panel is secured with Velcro, and it pulls off.  Something is burning. Check the converter’s wiring too.
Another possibility is the A/C itself. I have had two incidents where wiring inside the A/C burned during brownouts.

If I had a burning smell and couldn’t find it, I would set my wife upon the problem, she has a more sensitive nose.

Larry
Larry
2003 23.5' Front Lounge, since new.  Previously 1983 22' Front Lounge.
Tow vehicles  2020 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2001 Jeep Cherokee
Photo Collection: Lazy Daze
Re: 2019 Mid-Bath Power Center Failure
Reply #14 –
Check the terminal blocks inside the transfer switch. This is a metal box attached to the rear of the power center. They are setscrew terminals similar to the one inside the power center, and can loosen.
Andy Baird
2021 Ford Ranger towing 2019 Airstream 19CB
Previously: 1985 LD Twin/King "Gertie"; 2003 LD Midbath "Skylark"
Re: 2019 Mid-Bath Power Center Failure
Reply #15 –
I recreated the problem last night in our driveway by plugging into shore power and turning on the AC. In a few minutes I smelled the electrical burning odor and figured out it was a circuit breaker the had been installed for the inverter. I have an appointment scheduled with the installer next week and my concern is why did this happen and why won't it happen again. I post the answer next week. I guess I shouldn't be surprised that the problem wasn't with anything original the Lazy Daze build.

Thank you to everyone who responded so quickly. It's a great to know so many people are available and willing to help.

Bill
2019 MB and 2010 Honda Fit
Re: 2019 Mid-Bath Power Center Failure
Reply #16 –
While they are at it, that should be mounted in an electrical box not just  wood cutout in the wall. A real fire potential there.

Jon
1994 MB
Re: 2019 Mid-Bath Power Center Failure
Reply #17 –
Does the inverter power the A/C?
I don’t understand why the A/C, which has its own circuit breaker, would have an influence on the inverter’s circuit breaker unless all the 120-VAC power is provided by the inverter when connected to shore power.
It’s a good thing you tracked this down.

Jon is correct, it is against every electrical code to mount such a device in a wood cutout. This could have easily burned your Lazy Daze to the ground.
What unprofessional work!

It’s time to go back to the installer and get this corrected.

Larry.
Larry
2003 23.5' Front Lounge, since new.  Previously 1983 22' Front Lounge.
Tow vehicles  2020 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2001 Jeep Cherokee
Photo Collection: Lazy Daze
Re: 2019 Mid-Bath Power Center Failure
Reply #18 –
I'm glad you found that Bill; I hope that it gets 'handled' by your installer. Jon and Larry are right about that wiring needing to be mounted in a steel box.
   Thanks Andy for pointing out the connections in the buss transfer box. I've never checked mine out. I'd say I don't use the box, but I use the A/C as a load for the generator exercise, routinely.  RonB
RonB (Bostick) living in San Diego
Original owner of "Bluebelle" a '99 TKB
Re: 2019 Mid-Bath Power Center Failure
Reply #19 –
In addition to that breaker panel not being mounted in a box (horrifying!), those terminals are Walmart-grade junk, and the crimps don't look any too good. If it were me, I'd redo all of those terminations with FTZ Crimp 'N' Seal ring terminals, applied with an FTZ or equivalent ratcheting crimping tool.

Also, if it were me, I would not go back to that installer! Judging by the slipshod and potentially lethal workmanship shown here, I wouldn't trust them to do a good job of remediating this disaster.
Andy Baird
2021 Ford Ranger towing 2019 Airstream 19CB
Previously: 1985 LD Twin/King "Gertie"; 2003 LD Midbath "Skylark"
Re: 2019 Mid-Bath Power Center Failure
Reply #20 –
RV shops regularly charge $150 an hour. At these rates, many RV owners shy away from high-end shops, preferring a lower price.  This shop appears to cut corners to keep the price down.
You get what you pay for.  As I have said for years, RV is not a cheap lifestyle..

When I worked on LDs, many times people would balk at the time I estimated a project would take, not having a clue about how complicated many jobs were. 
Almost every job is unique, and it takes time to plan the job, especially when electrical work is involved. Anyone who has done this type of work knows it can take several times longer than what originally seems to be a reasonable estimate.. BTDT

I  would like to know if the inverter's breaker burned while running the A/C on shore power. Is it a pass-through inverter?

Larry
Larry
2003 23.5' Front Lounge, since new.  Previously 1983 22' Front Lounge.
Tow vehicles  2020 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2001 Jeep Cherokee
Photo Collection: Lazy Daze
Re: 2019 Mid-Bath Power Center Failure
Reply #21 –
For what it's worth, the neutral appears to be the one that's burnt. Like Andy said bad connections. But what kind of a breaker has the neutral running through it or am I seeing it wrong?

Jon
1994 MB
Re: 2019 Mid-Bath Power Center Failure
Reply #22 –
Quote from: Larry W  - 
Does the inverter power the A/C?

That would require a substantial bank of battery storage and means to charge those batteries.  And obviously something along the lines of a 3 kW inverter.

Quote
I don’t understand why the A/C, which has its own circuit breaker, would have an influence on the inverter’s circuit breaker unless all the 120-VAC power is provided by the inverter when connected to shore power.
It’s a good thing you tracked this down.

Given that's a separate breaker (not a pass-through that's part of the inverter), one has to wonder at the schematic on this, including both DC and AC wire gauges.

Re: 2019 Mid-Bath Power Center Failure
Reply #23 –
"one has to wonder at the schematic on this, including both DC and AC wire gauges."

Agreed! I'll say it again: that installer was clueless. Find somebody who knows what they're doing to fix this (literally) hot mess.
Andy Baird
2021 Ford Ranger towing 2019 Airstream 19CB
Previously: 1985 LD Twin/King "Gertie"; 2003 LD Midbath "Skylark"
Re: 2019 Mid-Bath Power Center Failure
Reply #24 –
Thanks to everyone who has responded so far.

The inverter is a luxury item for us and not a necessity and we would only use it when "boondocking" at Walmart or staying in a campsite without hookups and it would be a convenient way to use the microwave, coffee maker, and Starlink without running the generator.

I have an appointment with the installer on June 12th and I have three options:

1 - Have the installer make the repairs. This really isn't an option based on the opinions I've gotten from all of you telling me his skills are woefully inadequate.

2- Have everything he installed removed. This is an irrational option I had while falling asleep last night. It's kind of a "turn back the clock" option to make believe it never happened.

3 - Have the inverter disabled until we can find a competent RV technician who can install it correctly. There would be no rush to do this. We leave Florida on June 2nd and will return in mid-October and it would be no problem for us to wait until the fall to get it fixed. This seems to be my best (and only) option.

If anyone has any other ideas, please let me know. If you know of a good RV place for this type of work anywhere in Florida, that would be great.

I've added some photos. The inverter is installed in the outside compartment under the coach batteries. The transfer switch is located in the cabinet under the sink. The red and white wires in that picture are not for the transfer switch.. I included another picture of the burned out breaker that shows the white wire with the melted insulation.

This is the place that did the installation. They are located in Sarasota and I'm south of them in Venice.

Van & Bus Conversions In Florida | Our Van Quest | Florida Adventure Vans

Bill


2019 MB and 2010 Honda Fit