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Topic: 2000 MidBath -- engine *sometimes* takes 2-3 attempts to start -- advice? (Read 1854 times) previous topic - next topic
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2000 MidBath -- engine *sometimes* takes 2-3 attempts to start -- advice?
Hi folks,

Well we are on the road again, this time in Newfoundland.  Normally, I'd be posting to a blog for anyone interested in our travels, but alas, Verizon has draconian limits on international cell coverage (max 1/2 GB per day at unmetered rates, and once metered, forget loading pictures ;-)

But anyways, that's not why I'm posting.  Thistle Dew Too (our rig) has been running pretty well.  It has always started *immediately* after turning the key.  Even after sitting idle all winter.  But recently, it has *sometimes* not started until the 2nd or 3rd turn of the key.  And it sometimes flashes a Check Engine Light when that happens.

So my question to the experts -- is this indicative of a known failure pattern, and if so, can we take some action before we are stranded in the middle of Labrador ;-)  Again, so far, it has always started (never more than 3 attempts).  The engine battery is new (replaced this Spring).  It's just that when cranking, *sometimes* is doesn't "catch".  Please excuse my technical jargon ;-)

A few more pro-active inputs:  The rig has almost 100,000 miles on it.  It had complete service last year, after having sat for quite a few years.   Plugs were changed at about 76,000 miles by previous owner, who took very good care of it (but I can't really say the same about me).  Oil is fresh and full.  Transmission is new as of last year.

My quick internet research did not give me any leads, nor did a quick search of previous posts here.

OK, I welcome any follow-on questions, or ideally some suggestions for what you think might be the cause.   This is not currently a crisis, but I am trying to prevent one ;-)

As always, thanks in advance!

S-
Steven & Carol Crisp -- 2000 26.5' Blue Mid-Bath named Thistle Dew Too
Our RV Motto:  "No place to be ... and all day to get there"
2024 Adventure: The Great Eclipse Escapade!  HI(Air),NV,AZ,NM,Mason,TX(Totality!) ...
Re: 2000 MidBath -- engine *sometimes* takes 2-3 attempts to start -- advice?
Reply #1 –
There are some great experts in this group that know a lot more than i do about the  engines in these motor homes. Assuming its a ford engine that vintage had some issues with fuel delivery systems, pumps and such around that milestone. At least that was my experience with some of our work trucks in the fleet. Someone in here may have a suggestion on how to test the pressure in the system. I do know that you dont want to remove any gas lines without depressurizing them. (Please dont ask me how i know that :))The check engine light could be several things and maybe someone in here knows how to retrieve your engine codes to help you hone in on a sensor. Good luck and i may be working with a great ford mechanic tomorrow and i will run it by him if i see him.
Re: 2000 MidBath -- engine *sometimes* takes 2-3 attempts to start -- advice?
Reply #2 –
Has the fuel pump ever been replaced?  Can someone near the fuel tank hear the pump when the key is turned on?  If it turns over strongly but doesn't catch, I'd suspect fuel or ignition.  At 18 years and 100k miles, the fuel pump is something I'd keep an eye on.  At least a fuel pressure check might be worthwhile.

Art
Art and Barbara
Settled in Atterdag Village of Solvang
2015-2022 fulltime in a 2016 Tiffin Allegro Bus 37AP
2002-2015 2002 LD MB
Art's blog
Re: 2000 MidBath -- engine *sometimes* takes 2-3 attempts to start -- advice?
Reply #3 –
Quote from: Older_Fossil  - 

 At 18 years and 100k miles, the fuel pump is something I'd keep an eye on.  At least a fuel pressure check might be worthwhile.

Your rig is the right age and mileage to suspect a dying fuel pump.
A simple test is to turn the ignition on and off several times and then try to start it.
If it catches right away, it's a good indiction the fuel pump is ready for replacement.
Changing a fuel pump is a project that is best done on your own schedule. it can be hard to find a shop willing to drop the fuel tank, to access the pump. Even when near empty, the 55-gallon fuel tank is heavy and difficult to remove and replace.
Fuel pump replacement | Flickr

Larry
Larry
2003 23.5' Front Lounge, since new.  Previously 1983 22' Front Lounge.
Tow vehicles  2020 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2001 Jeep Cherokee
Photo Collection: Lazy Daze
Re: 2000 MidBath -- engine *sometimes* takes 2-3 attempts to start -- advice?
Reply #4 –
I don’t know about the LD engine but we just had similar symptoms on our CRV and it turned out to be the starter.
Every 3-4 starts, it would try to start but not start (every couple days).   When it struggles to start a second or third try and it started ok.  Other times it started right up with no problems. 
It sounded like a battery going bad and we always have jumper cables so after about a week we got a new battery.  Problem happened again a couple days later  and we double checked all connections but problem happened again.
Then one day (about two weeks after the first  symptom) it didn’t start at all, pushing  up our appointment at our mechanics a couple days.  New starter and all is well.

I like to plan my repairs and our  old 2001 CRV has nicely accommoded this with only one problem ever (and not an urgent  - do it now - one) .  Our 2007 CRV has had 4 non routine repairs now (two more minor airconditioner issues - bad design this year).  Mileage on both are the same around 250000.  They just don’t make things like they used to.  
Jane & Scott
Currently have a 1989 TK  LD we did a lot of upgrades on.
Bigfoot 25RQ Twin on order with early summer 2024 ETA

Our smartphone autocorrects into very poor English.
 We disclaim the illusion of ignorance this creates as we have enough ignorance we rightly claim.
Re: 2000 MidBath -- engine *sometimes* takes 2-3 attempts to start -- advice?
Reply #5 –
There are many things it could be so my suggestion would be to take it to a Ford dealer and have them plug into the OBDII and see what codes have been set. Newer engines do a great job at hiding problems by automatically adjusting themselves until they are so far along and nothing else can be used to compensate.

A fuel pump sounds like a great candidate although I would take a pressure reading off the rail first with a calibrated gauge. There are other possible issues involving the MAG, IAC, etc. but you really need to have the codes pulled by the dealer first.
Chet in Yorktown, Virginia
Re: 2000 MidBath -- engine *sometimes* takes 2-3 attempts to start -- advice?
Reply #6 –
I also think that getting the codes is the first step in the diagnosis process. The issue could be as simple as a clogged fuel filter, but the problems may be more complicated and varied, e.g., a leaky vacuum hose, bad plugs and/or coils, bad oxygen sensor or mass air flow sensor, an issue with the catalytic converter, or something else entirely!

I would check the gas cap before doing anything else; the truck won't start at all if the cap is loose (or gone!), but it may start intermittently if there is a little nick in the gasket or something else that's preventing a completely tight seal. There could also be a very small crack in the filler neck; this usually results from "tapping" the gas nozzle against the neck to get the last drops of gas into the tank. The neck, at least on my 2003, is plastic, and doesn't take kindly to being whacked with a metal nozzle.

Please post when you get the codes and diagnose the problem(s). Thanks.

2003 TK has a new home
Re: 2000 MidBath -- engine *sometimes* takes 2-3 attempts to start -- advice?
Reply #7 –
Well thanks to all for the multiple, quick responses.  Looks like it could be many things  :o

I guess I need to check in with some local experts (to get codes and other advice), if I can find some. 

I'll report back as I learn more or experience additional symptoms. 

I will also try to follow the self-diagnostic suggestions by Larry and Art.

Thanks much; if anyone else wants to toss their hat (smarts) into the ring, be my guest.

S-
Steven & Carol Crisp -- 2000 26.5' Blue Mid-Bath named Thistle Dew Too
Our RV Motto:  "No place to be ... and all day to get there"
2024 Adventure: The Great Eclipse Escapade!  HI(Air),NV,AZ,NM,Mason,TX(Totality!) ...
Re: 2000 MidBath -- engine *sometimes* takes 2-3 attempts to start -- advice?
Reply #8 –
Quote from: Renegade242  - 
There are many things it could be so my suggestion would be to take it to a Ford dealer and have them plug into the OBDII and see what codes have been set. Newer engines do a great job at hiding problems by automatically adjusting themselves until they are so far along and nothing else can be used to compensate.

Later model OBDII systems are very sophisticated, controlling, monitoring and reporting all sorts of problems.
Unfortunately, their 2000 LD's OBDI (not OBDII) is a very simple engine control system and does not monitor the fuel pump or much of anything else, besides the basic engine sensors.
If the "Check engine" light is not on, no codes will be available. OBDI isn't good about recording "Pending  codes".

The  OBDI systems do not have a downstream O2 sensor and does not monitor the catalytic converter, as every OBDII system does.  Our 2003 V-10 had a inoperative spark plug and the OBDI failed to notice it.

For home mechanics who want to do their own fun pump testing, an inexpensive gauge kit can be used.
Fuel Injection Pump Tester
Read the instruction on how to safely de-pressurize the fuel system before hooking up the gauge.
The fuel system operates at under around 40-PSI of pressure and can spray raw fuel a good distance.

Larry
Larry
2003 23.5' Front Lounge, since new.  Previously 1983 22' Front Lounge.
Tow vehicles  2020 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2001 Jeep Cherokee
Photo Collection: Lazy Daze
Re: 2000 MidBath -- engine *sometimes* takes 2-3 attempts to start -- advice?
Reply #9 –
Unrelated to your problem, but related to Newfoundland - when we were there in 2014, Walmart had free wifi, which extended into their parking lot. After stores close, traffic on it was nil, and it was very high-speed.

Steve
2004 FL
2013 Honda Fit
Re: 2000 MidBath -- engine *sometimes* takes 2-3 attempts to start -- advice?
Reply #10 –
"The  OBDI systems do not have a downstream O2 sensor and does not monitor the catalytic converter, as every OBDII system does.  Our 2003 V-10 had a inoperative spark plug and the OBDI failed to notice it."
---
Larry, thanks for that reminder; I didn't think about the "primitive" OBDI system in earlier model Fords when posting. I think the "What could be wrong?" ideas are probably worthwhile checking out (definitely including a bad fuel pump or clogged strainer, which I forgot to mention), but whatever codes are available on a 1989 may not tell much.  :( 



2003 TK has a new home
Re: 2000 MidBath -- engine *sometimes* takes 2-3 attempts to start -- advice?
Reply #11 –
Hi Steve; Too bad you don't have a code reader with you. Mine is currently masquerading as a Scangauge on my dash next to the GPS. The check engine light would stay on if it had set a code. If it blinks and then goes off; I could see it being a temporary reduction of voltage, made good by the alternator starting up. You could have a leaking fuel injector that lets fuel pressure dribble down, and then takes a try or two to re-pressurize the fuel rail before normal starting is accomplished. If you stop the engine, and then try to restart it after just a minute, does it have the same delay? I might try a higher grade of fuel for a tank or so, maybe a dose of Fuel Injector cleaner, to see if that changes the symptoms.
  Your 2000 model year has OBDII, required in January 1, 1996. The minimum required dataset has been improved upon since then with more and better accuracy sensors, more capable computers, and better (I hope) software to handle both the engine and transmission. Newer On board diagnostics include safety systems: ABS brakes and Air bags (SRS).
    A bit off topic: Telematics  https://www.edmunds.com/car-technology/car-tech-101-telematics-system-basics.html  RonB.

p.s. "Ford's Sync Vehicle Health Report provides owners with online diagnostic information and maintenance reminders."
RonB (Bostick) living in San Diego
Original owner of "Bluebelle" a '99 TKB
Re: 2000 MidBath -- engine *sometimes* takes 2-3 attempts to start -- advice?
Reply #12 –
Oops, sorry; the OP has a 2000, not a 1989.  :-[
2003 TK has a new home
Re: 2000 MidBath -- engine *sometimes* takes 2-3 attempts to start -- advice?
Reply #13 –
Quote from: RonB  - 
  Your 2000 model year has OBDII, required in January 1, 1996. The minimum required dataset has been improved upon since then with more and better accuracy sensors, more capable computers, and better (I hope) software to handle both the engine and transmission. Newer On board diagnostics include safety systems: ABS brakes and Air bags (SRS).

That's true for passenger cars and some light trucks but not for the E450's weight class.
AFAIK, OBDI  was used until at least 2004. My scanners positively identifies our 2003 as OBDI.
The lacks of a down stream O2 (oxygen) sensor (located on the outlet side of the cat converter) confirms it.
OBDII requires monitoring of the catalytic converter's efficiency with a down stream O2 sensor.

Larry


Larry
2003 23.5' Front Lounge, since new.  Previously 1983 22' Front Lounge.
Tow vehicles  2020 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2001 Jeep Cherokee
Photo Collection: Lazy Daze
Re: 2000 MidBath -- engine *sometimes* takes 2-3 attempts to start -- advice?
Reply #14 –
"AFAIK, OBDI  was used until at least 2004. My scanners positively identifies our 2003 as OBDI."
----
I just went out and looked under the hood of my 2003 (engine manufactured May 27, 2003); there's a sticker on the front edge (in front of the battery) labeled, "Important Engine Information". Among other tidbits, including a diagram of the vacuum hose routing, are the words, "OBDI Compliant".

I would guess that a few people might be opening the hoods of their post-2003 LDs pretty soon! If anyone does find an "Important Engine Information" sticker that says "OBDII", do let us know the model year! Thank you.
2003 TK has a new home
Re: 2000 MidBath -- engine *sometimes* takes 2-3 attempts to start -- advice?
Reply #15 –
Quote from: JCT  - 
"AFAIK, OBDI  was used until at least 2004. My scanners positively identifies our 2003 as OBDI."
----
I just went out and looked under the hood of my 2003 (engine manufactured May 27, 2003); there's a sticker on the front edge (in front of the battery) labeled, "Important Engine Information". Among other tidbits, including a diagram of the vacuum hose routing, are the words, "OBDI Compliant".

I would guess that a few people might be opening the hoods of their post-2003 LDs pretty soon! If anyone does find an "Important Engine Information" sticker that says "OBDII", do let us know the model year! Thank you.

In our 06, MFG Oct 2006, it reads OBD I.

Jim
Re: 2000 MidBath -- engine *sometimes* takes 2-3 attempts to start -- advice?
Reply #16 –
Quote from: Larry W  - 
Unfortunately, their 2000 LD's OBDI (not OBDII) is a very simple engine control system and does not monitor the fuel pump or much of anything else, besides the basic engine sensors.

Hey Larry, I am not sure what the answer is but I took a look at 2000 Ford E-450 Owner Manuals & Warranties and it stated the 2000 model year E450 used the OBDII system.

You can find the original PDF attached below.


Chet in Yorktown, Virginia
Re: 2000 MidBath -- engine *sometimes* takes 2-3 attempts to start -- advice?
Reply #17 –
Quote from: Renegade242  - 
I am not sure what the answer is but I took a look at 2000 Ford E-450 Owner Manuals & Warranties and it stated the 2000 model year E450 used the OBDII system.

All vehicles are required by Federal rules to have a manufacturer installed sticker stating its smog specs.
Besides OBDI or OBDII, the smog spec can be either to Federal standards or the stricter California standards, with are also used by several other states.
Our 2003's sticker show it to be OBDI.  That's enough proof for me.


When emissions tested, the VIN also identifies which system is used.
The online owners manual probably cover the whole E-series, including the light duty models that are OBDII.

Larry



Larry
2003 23.5' Front Lounge, since new.  Previously 1983 22' Front Lounge.
Tow vehicles  2020 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2001 Jeep Cherokee
Photo Collection: Lazy Daze
Re: 2000 MidBath -- engine *sometimes* takes 2-3 attempts to start -- advice?
Reply #18 –
I did some more digging and found an EPA file from 2003 which stated there were no OBD requirements for vehicles over 14k pounds GVWR. The new LDs state their GVWR is 14.5k although I was unable to find any updated requirements on the EPA site.


Also, the same document listed the differences between OBD and OBD II. The entire PDF is attached below.

Chet in Yorktown, Virginia
Re: 2000 MidBath -- engine *sometimes* takes 2-3 attempts to start -- advice?
Reply #19 –
"The online owners manual probably cover the whole E-series, including the light duty models that are OBDII."
-----
I believe the sticker, too. I went through my 2003 Ford manual last night, and the manual does indeed cover the whole E-series, from "Econoline" vans in the 8-9000 gvwr to the cutaway/cab chassis, at the time, 14050 gvwr.

2003 TK has a new home
Re: 2000 MidBath -- engine *sometimes* takes 2-3 attempts to start -- advice?
Reply #20 –
Hi folks, OP here.  Sorry for my delay in responding, but there are lots of cellular deserts up in Newfoundland ;-)

I really appreciate all the info in this thread.  Amazing the responses so far, so thanks for that.

Larry, regarding your suggestion:

Quote from: Larry W  - 
Your rig is the right age and mileage to suspect a dying fuel pump.
A simple test is to turn the ignition on and off several times and then try to start it.
If it catches right away, it's a good indiction the fuel pump is ready for replacement.
Changing a fuel pump is a project that is best done on your own schedule. it can be hard to find a shop willing to drop the fuel tank, to access the pump. Even when near empty, the 55-gallon fuel tank is heavy and difficult to remove and replace.
Fuel pump replacement | Flickr

Larry

I have tried that "test" a couple of times when it did not start up on the first try, and sure enough, each time is started up right after that.  (I would have thought you provided me with the needed "trick" but it doesn't sound like I should conclude that ;-)

So what exactly is going on when I turn the key three times as it relates to the fuel pump?  And does the fact that your tip "works" provide any prediction of life left in this fuel pump?  Is this "hurry into the next shop right away" timeline?  As you know I'm currently on the road in Newfoundland, so this could be interesting.

Thanks again for all the suggestions and the thread discussions.  I'm learning a lot.  Appreciate it.
Steven & Carol Crisp -- 2000 26.5' Blue Mid-Bath named Thistle Dew Too
Our RV Motto:  "No place to be ... and all day to get there"
2024 Adventure: The Great Eclipse Escapade!  HI(Air),NV,AZ,NM,Mason,TX(Totality!) ...
Re: 2000 MidBath -- engine *sometimes* takes 2-3 attempts to start -- advice?
Reply #21 –
"And does the fact that your tip "works" provide any prediction of life left in this fuel pump?"

I'm on my 3rd fuel pump at 13 years and 90K + miles and my experience shows that failure is anything but predictable.

With the 1st failure I'd pulled into an RV Park on a Friday and when I tried to start the engine on Monday morning it was dead in the water. Had to be towed to where it was replaced.

On the second instance I had experienced hesitation or stumbling a number of times prior to the last failure. I was under way at speed when it finally quit and drifted to the shoulder. Once again I had to be towed to a repair facility. In both cases I was within realistic distance from my salvation.   ::)  
Steve S.
Lazy Bones & Cedar
2004 30'IB (Island Bed)
Yesterday is History, Tomorrow is a Mystery
Live for the day!
Re: 2000 MidBath -- engine *sometimes* takes 2-3 attempts to start -- advice?
Reply #22 –
Hi, well I didn't know about the over 14,000 lb. threshold not needing OBDII compliance. My 1999 E350 TK is certified for OBDII. If mine was compliant in 1999, I'm surprised that the E450 in 1999 wasn't also certified. I know the engine was switched around a lot for 2000. Different valves, cam, intake and exhaust manifolds. Different sized pistons too. Not major changes, just 'tweaks'.
I think the more extensive engine management system would be better in the long run.  I had a chance to apply my code reader on that 2001, but it was running well. Later on it ended up having a bad crankshaft angle sensor, but fortunately at it's home during idle time.  RonB
   Sorry the picture is so blurry...
RonB (Bostick) living in San Diego
Original owner of "Bluebelle" a '99 TKB
Re: 2000 MidBath -- engine *sometimes* takes 2-3 attempts to start -- advice?
Reply #23 –
Quote from: Steve and Carol Crisp  - 
I have tried that "test" a couple of times when it did not start up on the first try, and sure enough, each time is started up right after that.  (I would have thought you provided me with the needed "trick" but it doesn't sound like I should conclude that ;-)
So what exactly is going on when I turn the key three times as it relates to the fuel pump?  And does the fact that your tip "works" provide any prediction of life left in this fuel pump?  Is this "hurry into the next shop right away" timeline? 

When the engine is shut down, pressure remains in the fuel system between the pump and the engine.
There is a check valve that holds the pressure. It is normal to lose some or all of the fuel pressure over a 30 minute period but the fuel should not drain back into the fuel tank.
Turning the ignition on and off several times fills and primes the system, building up pressure to around 40 psi.

So what is going on? There are a few possible causes
A failing fuel pump check valve will allow fuel, that should remain in the system, to drain back into the tank. It takes a bit of time for the fuel pump to refill and pressurize the system, thus the hard starts .
A weak pump will take extra time to prime the system, before starting.
A leaking fuel injector, one that doesn't totally seal, will drain the system and require priming, delaying the start.
Newer OBDII system usually will show an individual cylinder running rich. The old OBDI system isn't that smart.

So what to do?
I would have the fuel pump pressure tested when it's running and after sitting for ten minutes see, if the pressure is low when running or leaking down, after shutdown.
Low fuel pressure means a new pump, it isn't good for the engine to run on low fuel pressure.
A leaking check valve may last for thousands of miles, with the special starting sequence. It's a crap shoot.
Fixing a leaking check valve requires replacing the pump.
A leaky injector is less common and is harder to diagnose and will require a mechanic to test.

Most likely, the pump is dying of old age. If you start noticing bucking under full load, that is also an indication the pump is may not providing enough fuel for the engine's needs.
If you do change the pump, install a complete unit, with a filter, pressure regulator, check valve and fuel gauge sender.
All this stuff wears out.
https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=383218&cc=1375848&jsn=458

Larry

Larry
2003 23.5' Front Lounge, since new.  Previously 1983 22' Front Lounge.
Tow vehicles  2020 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2001 Jeep Cherokee
Photo Collection: Lazy Daze
Re: 2000 MidBath -- engine *sometimes* takes 2-3 attempts to start -- advice?
Reply #24 –
"My 1999 E350 TK is certified for OBDII. If mine was compliant in 1999, I'm surprised that the E450 in 1999 wasn't also certified."
---
Ron, I believe that the OBDII compliance on your 1999 E350 is due to its 11,500 pound gvwr;  the E450 had a gvwr of 14050. According to Larry's information, the 1996 OBDII compliance rule applied to vehicles under 14,000 pounds, so the E450 was stuck with OBDI.  ;)
2003 TK has a new home