Need advice propane July 11, 2018, 01:03:59 pm When I take my LD to get the propane tank filled the attendants don’t want to mess with it for some reason. Of the 4 times I have refilled the tank, I was turned down one time, and the attendants balked and/or were very reluctant to fill it the other 3 times.I have included a photo of the tank area and a photo of the page from the manual that came with the bus in the hopes that someone might see why the attendants are balking.Re the tank area picture, I am assuming that;1) Is the LP tank contents gauge2) Is the fill neck with yellow dust cap on3) Is the “20% white vapor valve” (per manual page)4) Is the pop-off valve5) Is the main on/off valve.6) Why is that label not over by #3?
Re: Need advice propane Reply #1 – July 11, 2018, 04:11:26 pm What have been their excuses for not wanting to fill it? I have never ran into any problems myself. 1 Likes
Re: Need advice propane Reply #2 – July 11, 2018, 04:18:41 pm Alice, you might want to take your rig to a propane supplier and have a system pressure test done and the "integrity" of the tank and all connections thoroughly checked. The reluctance to fill the tank is understandable, IMO; the visible areas of the tank show significant rust, and without a professional inspection, there is no way to tell if the tank is still sound. 3 Likes
Re: Need advice propane Reply #3 – July 11, 2018, 05:19:29 pm "... there is no way to tell if the tank is still sound."And once your bulk propane dealer determines that your tank is sound the next step should be liberal use of a wire brush and a fresh coat of paint. That should satisfy the worry-warts you've encountered. 6 Likes
Re: Need advice propane Reply #4 – July 11, 2018, 06:11:39 pm We have only the removable tank so have had no problems. Do others that have a non-removable tank like the OPs have any issues? Does that throw some places?We typically go to Costco as they are cheapest by far. Note some places charge by lbs others by gallons and the two can not be compared so we compare filling pretty empty tank instead. 1 Likes
Re: Need advice propane Reply #5 – July 11, 2018, 06:52:16 pm Interesting - I just read and learned that the permanently installed horizontal propane tanks such as those in the LD are designed and manufactured to ASME standards and do not require any sort of re-certification. Of course, conventional portable propane tanks are designed and manufactured to DOT standards with require a re-certification after twelve years and every five years after. 1 Likes
Re: Need advice propane Reply #6 – July 11, 2018, 08:37:06 pm Quote from: JandS2 - July 11, 2018, 06:11:39 pmWe have only the removable tank so have had no problems. Do others that have a non-removable tank like the OPs have any issues? Does that throw some places?LD stopped using the removable 40-lb vertical tanks back in the late 80s or early 90s..The rest of us have the permanently mounted horizontal tanks.Removable tanks require certification every 12 years.The horizontal tanks do not require periodic testing but it is up the operator of the propane station to determine if the tank is in safe, usable condition.A tank covered in rust is considered unserviceable by existing safety standards. Sanding, painting first with Naval Jelly and then with a enamel, may satisfy an inexperienced operator but not a well trained one. Replacing a rusted tank would be the safest and possibly the only option, other than having the tank removed, tested and reconditioned by a certified propane dealer.Larry 1 Likes
Re: Need advice propane Reply #7 – July 12, 2018, 12:32:52 am "some places charge by lbs others by gallons and the two can not be compared"They can, if you're willing to do a little math. A gallon of propane weighs 4.24 pounds. 1 Likes
Re: Need advice propane Reply #8 – July 12, 2018, 12:47:07 am We bought a used TT in 1985 where the previous owner had installed an ASME tank mamufactured in 1947 and still going fine. So many gas station attendants didn't know about ASME tanks that I finally had it pressure tested and stamped and avoid the problem.joel 2 Likes
Re: Need advice propane Reply #9 – July 12, 2018, 01:48:16 am Quote from: Larry W - July 11, 2018, 08:37:06 pmA tank covered in rust is considered unserviceable by existing safety standards. Larry - where does this information originate from? Are you able to cite a source? 1 Likes
Re: Need advice propane Reply #10 – July 12, 2018, 02:40:41 am Quote from: Renegade242 - July 12, 2018, 01:48:16 amLarry - where does this information originate from? Are you able to cite a source?OK, the propane tanks are covered under ASME Section VIII, Division 1: Design and Fabrication of Pressure Vessels. In Appendix E (Suggested Good Practice Regarding Corrosion Allowance) paragraph E-2 states "When the rate of corrosion is closely predictable, additional metal thickness over and above that required for the initial operating conditions should be provided, which should be at least equal to the expected corrosion loss during the desired life of the vessel."This is good information since the design engineer must account for corrosion and provide an allowance in his design. Since a low pressure vessel mounted externally to an RV is a mature design and the amount of corrosion is predictable over the life of the vessel the design will include the necessary allowance.In Appendix M (Installation and Operation) paragraph M-2 (a) states "Vessels subject to external corrosion shall be so installed that there is sufficient access to all parts of the exterior to permit proper inspection of the exterior, unless adequate protection against corrosion is provided or unless the vessel is of such size and is so connected that it may readily be removed from its permanent location for inspection."Regarding the installation of a low pressure propane tank in an RV the above paragraph basically says provide adequate protection against corrosion which rolls right back up into Appendix E stating that the amount of predicted corrosion must be accounted for in the design. In summary - we have no thing to worry about since the design has already taken into account reduction in strength due to corrosion.Now, I was unable to locate and additional ASME literature specifically addressing in service corrosion inspection so if you have something to share please do. I would be interested in reading that also. 1 Likes
Re: Need advice propane Reply #11 – July 12, 2018, 03:29:00 am Quote from: Renegade242 - July 12, 2018, 01:48:16 amLarry - where does this information originate from? Are you able to cite a source?The rules are spell out in the Nation Fire Protection Association's Liquefied Petroleum Gas Code Section 58https://catalog.nfpa.org/NFPA-58-Liquefied-Petroleum-Gas-Code-P1187.aspx?icid=B575The DOT and OSHA also have rules pertaining to the fueling of cylinders.Before retirement, I ran a government propane fueling facility and trained personnel to fill both portable and permanently mounted propane tanks. For very good reasons, every aspect of propane storage and fueling is covered by specified safety regulations.I don't have access to the code books anymore for the exact wording, you asked a few years too late.The rules basically state that rusty, corroded, dented or otherwise damaged tanks are illegible for refilling without rehabilitation and recertification. Sort of makes sense, doesn't it.Larry 1 Likes
Re: Need advice propane Reply #12 – July 12, 2018, 03:32:42 am Hi Alice. Concerning your question about placement of the vapor label #6; The 20% fill level is propane vapor until the fill level hits the dip tube and liquid propane starts to come out. That should be about the time that the Overfill Protection Device (OPD) shuts off the fill inlet internally. The Vapor label is pointing out that that port is where vapor comes out, going to the pressure regulator, under that gray plastic cover, and then on to the motorhome plumbing. The visible rust should alarm the filling people. They would be liable if they filled an unsafe container, and then something bad happened. Rust under neath could be even worse, and small pits could be deep enough to rupture at any time. It should be possible to have the tank removed, cleaned, inspected and pressure tested. If then recertified, and stamped into the tank to be visible near the fill valve), you shouldn't have further problems when seeking a fill. You might want to keep a copy of that recertification handy at that time. Art Burgreen's painting of his tank years ago (reported here) prompted me to derust and re-paint years ago. No salted roads where I've traveled, so just small gravel hits from the rear driver side tires. I thought about applying a coating of 'rubber' bed lining to protect the tank, but I didn't want to insulate it, so just more gray paint. Hope this helped RonB 1 Likes
Re: Need advice propane Reply #13 – July 12, 2018, 10:02:05 am Fortunately or unfortunately, we raised many children in the digital age of black and white without room for gray areas. Our environmental society has nearly banned solvent containing paints requiring use of powder coat paints. I have one propane station that will not fill a container that has cracked powercoat paint, "the tank is cracked." nor will it fill my class B rig because the Econoline floor flexes when the lever arm formed by the attached hose wiggles too much, because "the connection is loose." They will not crawl under to look, "it's just bad!" Just no ability to look and decide? Another does ot know the difference between the service valve, and the 20% full bleed valve. They open my service valve, on an ASME tank, because the no vapor release float system would not open, instead of the 20% full bleed valve. !@#^%^&&*()_ "Fuel up the pilot lights while refilling he tries!"
Re: Need advice propane Reply #14 – July 12, 2018, 12:21:00 pm Quote from: rodneyhelfrich - July 12, 2018, 10:02:05 amThey open my service valve, on an ASME tank, because the no vapor release float system would not open, instead of the 20% full bleed valve. !@#^%^&&*()_ "Fuel up the pilot lights while refilling he tries!"The only problem with them trying for a Darwin Award is that they are using your rig to do so. 2 Likes
Re: Need advice propane Reply #15 – July 12, 2018, 01:13:03 pm Quote from: rodneyhelfrich - July 12, 2018, 10:02:05 am I have one propane station that will not fill a container that has cracked powercoat paint, "the tank is cracked." nor will it fill my class B rig because the Econoline floor flexes when the lever arm formed by the attached hose wiggles too much, because "the connection is loose." They will not crawl under to look, "it's just bad!" Just no ability to look and decide? Another does ot know the difference between the service valve, and the 20% full bleed valve. They open my service valve, on an ASME tank, because the no vapor release float system would not open, instead of the 20% full bleed valve. !@#^%^&&*()_ "Fuel up the pilot lights while refilling he tries!"Unfortunately, most operators are poorly trained or not trained at all. The law requires training but there are few ways of getting caught until an accident happens.As for reducing the use of solvents, I have watched, over the last 50 years, and seen just about every solvent we once used removed from the market, along with their carcinogenic properties. During my working career, I watch several older employees die of some strange cancers, including two auto painters who both died of brain cancer. While we hated the solvent replacements, not being exposed to so many poorly tested chemicals had to be a positive thing.We once used gallons of Trichloroethylene for cleaning equipment, the EPA now rates the chemical as a human carcinogen .I should be dead.Larry 1 Likes
Re: Need advice propane Reply #16 – July 12, 2018, 03:50:41 pm Yes, even Roundup has been deemed unsafe (allegedly):Lawsuits alleging weed killer Roundup caused cancer get green light
Re: Need advice propane Reply #17 – July 12, 2018, 07:56:43 pm Quote from: HiLola - July 12, 2018, 03:50:41 pmYes, even Roundup has been deemed unsafe (allegedly):Lawsuits alleging weed killer Roundup caused cancer get green lightAnd then there is this from Office of Environmental Health Hazard Assessment (OEHHA)Glyphosate listed under Calif Prop 65They were arguing about this at Cal-EPA before I left in 1999.
Re: Need advice propane Reply #18 – July 12, 2018, 08:39:48 pm "We once used gallons of Trichloroethylene for cleaning equipment..."It was in common use in the electronics industry, mid '70s, to clean printed circuit boards after they went through the wave solder machine. I had the opportunity to clean up a spill of the stuff... probably lost a few brain cells during that incident. Talk about headache! 1 Likes
Re: Need advice propane Reply #19 – July 12, 2018, 11:40:52 pm Quote from: Larry W - July 12, 2018, 03:29:00 amThe rules are spell out in the Nation Fire Protection Association's Liquefied Petroleum Gas Code Section 58https://catalog.nfpa.org/NFPA-58-Liquefied-Petroleum-Gas-Code-P1187.aspx?icid=B575The DOT and OSHA also have rules pertaining to the fueling of cylinders.That's exactly what I was looking for Larry - thank you!Quote from: Larry W - July 12, 2018, 03:29:00 amI don't have access to the code books anymore for the exact wording, you asked a few years too late.The rules basically state that rusty, corroded, dented or otherwise damaged tanks are illegible for refilling without rehabilitation and recertification. Sort of makes sense, doesn't it.I found the code book and discovered the following:4-2.2.4 Containers shall be filled only after determination that they comply with the design, fabrication, inspection, marking, and requalification provisions of this code. (See 2-2.1.3 through 2-2.1.6.)Which of course, led to these:2-2.1.3* Containers shall be designed, fabricated, tested, and marked (or stamped) in accordance with the regulations of the U.S. Department of Transportation (DOT), the ASME Boiler and Pressure Vessel Code, "Rules for the Construction of Unfired Pressure Vessels," Section VIII, or the API-ASME Code for Unfired Pressure Vessels for Petroleum Liquids and Gases, whichever is applicable at the date of manufacture. (See Appendixes C and D.) The following shall also apply: (a) Adherence to applicable ASME Code Case Interpretations and Addenda shall be considered as compliance with the ASME Code. (b) Containers fabricated to earlier editions of regulations, rules, or codes listed in 2-2.1.3 and the ICC Rules for Construction of Unfired Pressure Vessels prior to April 1, 1967, shall be permitted to be continued to be used in accordance with 1-1.5.2-2.1.4 A container shall not be filled if the container assembly is not suitable for continued service.2-2.1.5 Cylinders subject to the jurisdiction of DOT regulations shall be filled, continued in service, and transported in accordance with those regulations.2-2.1.6 Containers that have been involved in a fire and show no distortion shall be requalified for continued service as follows before being used or reinstalled: (a) Cylinders shall be requalified by a manufacturer of the type of cylinder to be requalified or by a repair facility approved by DOT.Exception: DOT 4E specification (aluminum) cylinders shall be permanently removed from service. (b) ASME or API-ASME containers shall be retested using the hydrostatic test procedure applicable at the time of original fabrication. (c) All container appurtenances shall be replaced.Now, my logical question is what exactly is the meaning of 2-2.1.4? Is there any definition that you know of? 1 Likes
Re: Need advice propane Reply #20 – July 14, 2018, 11:17:11 pm Quote from: Renegade242 - July 11, 2018, 06:52:16 pmInteresting - I just read and learned that the permanently installed horizontal propane tanks such as those in the LD are designed and manufactured to ASME standards and do not require any sort of re-certification.That is what the man at the RV sales place told me regarding the propane tank, so during all of these rather tense propane filling experiences it never occurred to me that it was the "visual condition" of the tank causing the problem. Thank you for this specific info, I think it might help IMMENSELY!! in the future. 1 Likes
Re: Need advice propane Reply #21 – July 14, 2018, 11:22:42 pm Quote from: Larry W - July 11, 2018, 08:37:06 pmReplacing a rusted tank would be the safest and possibly the only option, other than having the tank removed, tested and reconditioned by a certified propane dealer.Can you give me an idea of what that would entail, how 'invasive' it would be in terms of what the mechanic/service person has to do the unit to accomplish it?? You know, is it like changing a fan belt on a car or more like replacing the pistons on a car.And a ball park price ...... RV service guys can me coming from 10 miles away.... Larry
Re: Need advice propane Reply #22 – July 14, 2018, 11:25:49 pm Quote from: Duro - July 11, 2018, 04:11:26 pmWhat have been their excuses for not wanting to fill it? I have never ran into any problems myself.The refusal came from the guy who has been filling our home propane tank and all our little BBQ and heater tanks, for 12 years. He said he wasn't allowed to and did not specify why.
Re: Need advice propane Reply #23 – July 14, 2018, 11:30:01 pm Quote from: joel wiley - July 12, 2018, 12:47:07 amWe bought a used TT in 1985 where the previous owner had installed an ASME tank mamufactured in 1947 and still going fine. So many gas station attendants didn't know about ASME tanks that I finally had it pressure tested and stamped and avoid the problem.joel I am leaning towards that option, because it can be done with out someone having to do anything the bus itself and would be 100% effective. Where do I look to get it done, propane dealer, RV dealer, local mechanic??
Re: Need advice propane Reply #24 – July 14, 2018, 11:38:06 pm AWESOME EXPLANATION!! THANK YOU!!!!! The unit did not come with an owner's manual, so I have a folder where I keep info like this. Who knows 10 years from now it might be as good as a manual!! Quote from: RonB - July 12, 2018, 03:32:42 amHi Alice. Concerning your question about placement of the vapor label #6; The 20% fill level is propane vapor until the fill level hits the dip tube and liquid propane starts to come out. That should be about the time that the Overfill Protection Device (OPD) shuts off the fill inlet internally. The Vapor label is pointing out that that port is where vapor comes out, going to the pressure regulator, under that gray plastic cover, and then on to the motorhome plumbing. The visible rust should alarm the filling people. They would be liable if they filled an unsafe container, and then something bad happened. Rust under neath could be even worse, and small pits could be deep enough to rupture at any time. It should be possible to have the tank removed, cleaned, inspected and pressure tested. If then recertified, and stamped into the tank to be visible near the fill valve), you shouldn't have further problems when seeking a fill. You might want to keep a copy of that recertification handy at that time. Art Burgreen's painting of his tank years ago (reported here) prompted me to derust and re-paint years ago. No salted roads where I've traveled, so just small gravel hits from the rear driver side tires. I thought about applying a coating of 'rubber' bed lining to protect the tank, but I didn't want to insulate it, so just more gray paint. Hope this helped RonB
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