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Topic: Is 3500 lbs too heavy for a LD to pull? (Read 1503 times) previous topic - next topic
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Is 3500 lbs too heavy for a LD to pull?
The whole gross vehicle weight thing is a little confusing for me.  If a v10 LD can pull 4000 lbs, that's probably only if empty.  How much does the average LD weigh when fully packed with stuff?  I have an Element I'd like to pull, but I think it weighs 3560 lbs, so doesn't that mean I could only add 400 lbs of stuff (including me) to the LD?  That doesn't sound like much stuff especially if I add solar panels.

I did search the forums, but I'm guessing I'm using the wrong keywords because I found information that didn't relate to my questions.  I'm sorry if this has been asked a gazillion times.  If so, I'd love a link to the info.

Thanks.

Mimi
Save a life.
Adopting a pet is the closest a human
will ever come to choosing a relative.
hsus.org  aspca.org
1992 Lazy Daze T/K  23.5' Ford 460 c.i.d./7.6 liter V8 engine, electronic fuel injection, E4OD 4-speed auto transmission
Full time 6/2017
Re: Is 3500 lbs too heavy for a LD to pull?
Reply #1 –
"The whole gross vehicle weight thing is a little confusing for me."
----
One source of RV weight-related terminology definitions:

RV Weight Terms
2003 TK has a new home
Re: Is 3500 lbs too heavy for a LD to pull?
Reply #2 –
Mimi,

Got our 2015 24ft Twin King weighed just this morning. 

GVWR on these is 14500 and the tag from the mothership says our OCCC is 3676, my guess was with everything (including us) in place we'd be 1000 under that.  Turns out we're at 12550, nearly a ton under capacity at this point.  Obviously, owners of the 27 and 31ft models will need to be somewhat more cautious.

The GCWR (LD plus toad max weight) is 20000, so a toad within the 4000 max specified weight would not affect the LD's own GVWR.

Steve
2015 TK
Re: Is 3500 lbs too heavy for a LD to pull?
Reply #3 –
Quote from: JCT  - 
"The whole gross vehicle weight thing is a little confusing for me."
----
One source of RV weight-related terminology definitions:

RV Weight Terms

Thank you.  I think I need to go to RV boot camp!  Who's on first....;-)
Save a life.
Adopting a pet is the closest a human
will ever come to choosing a relative.
hsus.org  aspca.org
1992 Lazy Daze T/K  23.5' Ford 460 c.i.d./7.6 liter V8 engine, electronic fuel injection, E4OD 4-speed auto transmission
Full time 6/2017
Re: Is 3500 lbs too heavy for a LD to pull?
Reply #4 –
Hi Mimi:  First, after you get your rig and load it up, you should get it weighed.  This is for everyones' safety, including yours.  This can be done at larger RV ralleys, or you can get it done at a truck scale.  Here goes a short tutorial on weights, and I apologize in advance if this is known information.  This applies to any manufacturer using the Ford E450 Chassis.
This info. does not apply to older E450s or the Ford E350.

All newer Ford E450 chassis are built to carry a maximum amount of weight, 14500 pounds, known as the Gross Vehicle Weight Rating.  The Ford E450 chassis is built to tow, and the maximum amount of weight of the RV and tow vehicle combined (Maximum Combined Weight Rating) is 20000 pounds at *sea level*.  These weight limits are for everything, you, your friends, your pets, your food, your water, your stuff.

The different models of RVs and LDs can carry different amounts of people and stuff, because of how much the "home" part of the motorhome weighs.  The higher the weight of the home, the less stuff.  Things that can effect the weight of the home are the length (generally the longer the RV the more it weighs), and options (slide outs and leveling jacks for example).  The difference between the maximum amount the chassis can carry (GVWR) and the weight of the home is the Occupant and Cargo Carrying Capacity (OCCC), i.e., the amount of stuff you can carry.  So, two identical LDs are not likely to weigh the same amount because of how much stuff may be on board.  Thus, I will provide you with some numbers from our mid-bath taken a couple of years ago, but you should not assume that a identical rig will weigh the same.

The following is our recorded weights, with these parameters:
27 foot mid-bath, no tow car
Gas full
Propane full
Water full
3 adults on board, 2 up front, 1 at dinette
Clothes on board for a two month trans continental trip
Black and Gray tanks empty 
Good supply of food (just left Walmart)

Driver's Front  2150#      Pass. Front  2075#    Total weight on front axle  4225#

Driver's Rear  4425#    Pass. Rear  4200    Total weight on rear axle  8625#

Total RV weight 12850#, a whopping 1650# under max. chassis weight

Finally, be careful where you tow.  Members on this forum have reminded all of us, that the tow capacity of any Ford E450 will drop if you start climbing in elevation.  And there could be a time when the tow car may need to be dis-connected and driven separately up the mountain.

Hope this helps.
2011 MB
Re: Is 3500 lbs too heavy for a LD to pull?
Reply #5 –
Quote from: Steve TK  - 
Mimi,

Got our 2015 24ft Twin King weighed just this morning. 

GVWR on these is 14500 and the tag from the mothership says our OCCC is 3676, my guess was with everything (including us) in place we'd be 1000 under that.  Turns out we're at 12550, nearly a ton under capacity at this point.  Obviously, owners of the 27 and 31ft models will need to be somewhat more cautious.

The GCWR (LD plus toad max weight) is 20000, so a toad within the 4000 max specified weight would not affect the LD's own GVWR.

Steve

Pardon my silly questions but, if the GVWR is 14500 and OCCC is 3676, do I subtract the OCCC from the GVWR to determine what the actual GVWR is?  The GCWR doesn't include contents so, what if... oh my gosh I'm lost. lol  The GCWR has nothing to do with contents?  The GVWR is just the LD alone and empty?  Add the OCCC for contents and people and the total is 18,176.  How do you get to 20k for the GCWR?

I'm sorry.  I'm so confused.
Save a life.
Adopting a pet is the closest a human
will ever come to choosing a relative.
hsus.org  aspca.org
1992 Lazy Daze T/K  23.5' Ford 460 c.i.d./7.6 liter V8 engine, electronic fuel injection, E4OD 4-speed auto transmission
Full time 6/2017
Re: Is 3500 lbs too heavy for a LD to pull?
Reply #6 –
While you could spend a lot of time "calculating" or go to an RV service shop like Camping World, I'm going to go out on a limb here.  One person traveling in a midbath newer than 2000 should have no problem towing  your vehicle at most elevations. Just limit those rocks!  They could add up fast!  Sounds to me that you are highly unlikely to exceed the CGWR.
2004 MB
Re: Is 3500 lbs too heavy for a LD to pull?
Reply #7 –
Quote from: rm2011ldmb  - 
Hi Mimi:  First, after you get your rig and load it up, you should get it weighed.
This info. does not apply to older E450s or the Ford E350.
I'm looking at 2000-2006 LD's.How do I go about finding out what the weight restrictions are for those E450's?  I thought an E450 was an E450.

Quote from: rm2011ldmb  - 
All newer Ford E450 chassis are built to carry a maximum amount of weight, 14500 pounds, known as the Gross Vehicle Weight Rating.  The Ford E450 chassis is built to tow, and the maximum amount of weight of the RV and tow vehicle combined (Maximum Combined Weight Rating) is 20000 pounds at *sea level*.  These weight limits are for everything, you, your friends, your pets, your food, your water, your stuff.
Thank you.  I get that! lol

Quote from: rm2011ldmb  - 
The difference between the maximum amount the chassis can carry (GVWR) and the weight of the home is the Occupant and Cargo Carrying Capacity (OCCC), i.e., the amount of stuff you can carry.  So, two identical LDs are not likely to weigh the same amount because of how much stuff may be on board.  Thus, I will provide you with some numbers from our mid-bath taken a couple of years ago, but you should not assume that a identical rig will weigh the same.
When you say "the amount of stuff you can carry" you're referring to everything but the toad, right?

Quote from: rm2011ldmb  - 
Driver's Front  2150#      Pass. Front  2075#    Total weight on front axle  4225#
Driver's Rear  4425#    Pass. Rear  4200    Total weight on rear axle  8625#
Total RV weight 12850#, a whopping 1650# under max. chassis weight

How do I know how much the driver's front vs passenger front weighs?  Is that how they weigh trucks at the scales?

If I had the same everything that you have. I wouldn't be able to tow my Element which weighs 3650 lbs.  I'd need a shorter LD, like a 24' I guess. 

Quote from: rm2011ldmb  - 
Finally, be careful where you tow.  Members on this forum have reminded all of us, that the tow capacity of any Ford E450 will drop if you start climbing in elevation.  And there could be a time when the tow car may need to be dis-connected and driven separately up the mountain.

Hope this helps.

Thank you so much!  What wonderful and clear information!  I really can't thank you enough for taking so much time to explain this to me.  I was truly lost.  Thank you!  Now, I guess I should be looking for a short LD with an E450 because I don't think I can get rid of my Element.

Mimi

Save a life.
Adopting a pet is the closest a human
will ever come to choosing a relative.
hsus.org  aspca.org
1992 Lazy Daze T/K  23.5' Ford 460 c.i.d./7.6 liter V8 engine, electronic fuel injection, E4OD 4-speed auto transmission
Full time 6/2017
Re: Is 3500 lbs too heavy for a LD to pull?
Reply #8 –
Quote from: Elizabeth West-Ownbey  - 
While you could spend a lot of time "calculating" or go to an RV service shop like Camping World, I'm going to go out on a limb here.  One person traveling in a midbath newer than 2000 should have no problem towing  your vehicle at most elevations. Just limit those rocks!  They could add up fast!  Sounds to me that you are highly unlikely to exceed the CGWR.

I don't know.  Based on the numbers rm2011ldmb stated, it seems I'd be well over the 1650lbs he had left over, with my 3600lb Element, even without rocks!:-)
Save a life.
Adopting a pet is the closest a human
will ever come to choosing a relative.
hsus.org  aspca.org
1992 Lazy Daze T/K  23.5' Ford 460 c.i.d./7.6 liter V8 engine, electronic fuel injection, E4OD 4-speed auto transmission
Full time 6/2017
Re: Is 3500 lbs too heavy for a LD to pull?
Reply #9 –
Quote from: Opuntia  - 
I don't know.  Based on the numbers rm2011ldmb stated, it seems I'd be well over the 1650lbs he had left over, with my 3600lb Element, even without rocks!:-)

Think of the two numbers as two different stopping points. 

1)  The weight capacity for the coach and its contents stops at 14,500 pounds. 

2)  The COMBINED weight of the coach and its contents AND YOUR TOAD stops at 20,000 pounds, so . . .

3)  Unless you fill the Element with rocks, you should be fine with towing it with any E-450 chassis/length Lazy Daze, assuming you don't fill the motorhome itself past the 14,500 pound stopping point.

   Virtual hugs,

   Judie

•~•~•~•~•~•~•~•~•~•~•~•~•
2015 Leisure Travel Unity (Sally Forth) - 2024 -
2009 Pleasure-Way Excel TS (Joyce) - 2019 - 2024
2018 Sportsmobile - (Hopper) 2023 - 2024
2005 RB (Dorrie Anne) - 2009-2022, 1985 TK (Gertie) - 1991-2001
1999 Mountain Aire (Francine) - 2001 - 2009
Re: Is 3500 lbs too heavy for a LD to pull?
Reply #10 –
Thank you Judie.  With RM211LDMB's information, yours and the others, I believe I do understand now.  Gosh I'm so dense about this.  I won't be carrying much with me outside of full fuel tank, etc. and my dog, so I should be well under the max.  I think I'll probably use a composting toilet instead of a black tank, so that should help with weight a little bit.  Maybe that will offset the solar panels I plan to add.  I'll have to figure in a flatbed trailer too because the Element has to be towed 4 down and I don't think I want to do that sooo, now to look at trailers! 

Thanks to everyone for chiming in and clearing my confusion. :-) 
Save a life.
Adopting a pet is the closest a human
will ever come to choosing a relative.
hsus.org  aspca.org
1992 Lazy Daze T/K  23.5' Ford 460 c.i.d./7.6 liter V8 engine, electronic fuel injection, E4OD 4-speed auto transmission
Full time 6/2017
Re: Is 3500 lbs too heavy for a LD to pull?
Reply #11 –
"I'll have to figure in a flatbed trailer too because the Element has to be towed 4 down and I don't think I want to do that sooo, now to look at trailers!"
-----
??? Towing "four down" means towing the car behind the motorhome on its own four wheels; any toad can be loaded onto a "trailer" or a tow dolly, so your Element doesn't have to be towed "four down". But, did you check to make sure that your Element can be towed four down if you choose to do so?  Here's a resource to do that:

Downloadable Dinghy Guides | MotorHome Magazine

Also, the gvwr of the Ford E450 V-10 went up to 14500 pounds with the 2008 models; that model year still offered a V-8 for the 24' with the gvwr of 14050. If you're only considering LDs on the Ford E450 chassis from 2000-2006, the maximum gvwr that you have to work with is 14050 pounds, not 14500.

2003 TK has a new home
Re: Is 3500 lbs too heavy for a LD to pull?
Reply #12 –
I have never towed a vehicle, so cannot offer any direct advice, but from what I have read - and I'm sure there will be plenty of input on the subject - towing an appropriate vehicle four wheels down is MUCH preferable to using a trailer, almost without exception.  The only reason given to tow on a trailer is if a vehicle IS NOT capable of being towed four down. 

This is SO preferable a method that there are ways of fixing up a transmission to allow towing of an otherwise unsuitable vehicle four down in place of using a trailer or dolly.  We don't need to go into this because your vehicle is already "golden" as far as towing is concerned!

What do you see as the advantage of NOT towing four down?

Basically . . . what are you going to do with the trailer/dolly when you are camped after you have taken your car off it?  If you plan to never be in a regulation-sized campsite, this may pose no problem, but you will still have the extra work to keep it out of your way and secured when not directly in use.

Virtual hugs,

Judie

•~•~•~•~•~•~•~•~•~•~•~•~•

Quote from: Opuntia  - 
Thank you Judie.  With RM211LDMB's information, yours and the others, I believe I do understand now.  Gosh I'm so dense about this.  I won't be carrying much with me outside of full fuel tank, etc. and my dog, so I should be well under the max.  I think I'll probably use a composting toilet instead of a black tank, so that should help with weight a little bit.  Maybe that will offset the solar panels I plan to add.  I'll have to figure in a flatbed trailer too because the Element has to be towed 4 down and I don't think I want to do that sooo, now to look at trailers! 

Thanks to everyone for chiming in and clearing my confusion. :-)
2015 Leisure Travel Unity (Sally Forth) - 2024 -
2009 Pleasure-Way Excel TS (Joyce) - 2019 - 2024
2018 Sportsmobile - (Hopper) 2023 - 2024
2005 RB (Dorrie Anne) - 2009-2022, 1985 TK (Gertie) - 1991-2001
1999 Mountain Aire (Francine) - 2001 - 2009
Re: Is 3500 lbs too heavy for a LD to pull?
Reply #13 –
Quote from: JCT  - 
"I'll have to figure in a flatbed trailer too because the Element has to be towed 4 down and I don't think I want to do that sooo, now to look at trailers!"
-----
??? Towing "four down" means towing the car behind the motorhome on its own four wheels; any toad can be loaded onto a "trailer" or a tow dolly, so your Element doesn't have to be towed "four down". But, did you check to make sure that your Element can be towed four down if you choose to do so?  Here's a resource to do that:

Downloadable Dinghy Guides | MotorHome Magazine

Also, the gvwr of the Ford E450 V-10 went up to 14500 pounds with the 2008 models; that model year still offered a V-8 for the 24' with the gvwr of 14050. If you're only considering LDs on the Ford E450 chassis from 2000-2006, the maximum gvwr that you have to work with is 14050 pounds, not 14500.



Yeah sorry, I wasn't very clear there.  Because of its all wheel drive, it can't be towed 2 down, which was my preference.  Since that's not an option and I don't want to tow it 4 down, I would have to get a trailer.  I don't want to tow it 4 down because doesn't that put miles on the car?

"Also, the gvwr of the Ford E450 V-10 went up to 14500 pounds with the 2008"

Thank you for that information!  I had no idea.  I'm looking at LD's 2000-2006 so I'll definitely need a light trailer to tow my Element.

So much to learn....

Mimi
Save a life.
Adopting a pet is the closest a human
will ever come to choosing a relative.
hsus.org  aspca.org
1992 Lazy Daze T/K  23.5' Ford 460 c.i.d./7.6 liter V8 engine, electronic fuel injection, E4OD 4-speed auto transmission
Full time 6/2017
Re: Is 3500 lbs too heavy for a LD to pull?
Reply #14 –
Quote from: Judie Ashford  - 
towing an appropriate vehicle four wheels down is MUCH preferable to using a trailer, almost without exception.

What do you see as the advantage of NOT towing four down?

Basically . . . what are you going to do with the trailer/dolly when you are camped after you have taken your car off it? 

Virtual hugs,

Judie

•~•~•~•~•~•~•~•~•~•~•~•~•


Well Judie, you certainly clarify things for me:-)  Thank you!  I saw a Youtube video of a toad blowout.  It was terrible.  Not only did it destroy the car, but the RV was so severely damaged that I think it had to be towed.  I thought a trailer would mitigate that possibility.  I wouldn't mind a damaged trailer as much as I would mind a totaled car.  I also thought towing 4 down put miles on the car.  Is that wrong?  I also read that the insurance is cheaper if it's on a trailer. 

I think I may be misinformed :-) lol
Save a life.
Adopting a pet is the closest a human
will ever come to choosing a relative.
hsus.org  aspca.org
1992 Lazy Daze T/K  23.5' Ford 460 c.i.d./7.6 liter V8 engine, electronic fuel injection, E4OD 4-speed auto transmission
Full time 6/2017
Re: Is 3500 lbs too heavy for a LD to pull?
Reply #15 –
Quote from: Opuntia  - 
Well Judie, you certainly clarify things for me:-)  Thank you!  I saw a Youtube video of a toad blowout.  It was terrible.  Not only did it destroy the car, but the RV was so severely damaged that I think it had to be towed.  I thought a trailer would mitigate that possibility.  I wouldn't mind a damaged trailer as much as I would mind a totaled car.  I also thought towing 4 down put miles on the car.  Is that wrong?  I also read that the insurance is cheaper if it's on a trailer. 

I think I may be misinformed :-) lol

A tire pressure monitoring system will help with the blow out concern. Insurance companies don't care how you tow your car and it will have no impact on premium.

Jim
Re: Is 3500 lbs too heavy for a LD to pull?
Reply #16 –
Thank you Jim.  There is so much information out there that it's difficult  separating the good from the bad.  I guess towing 4 down is the answer for me.
Save a life.
Adopting a pet is the closest a human
will ever come to choosing a relative.
hsus.org  aspca.org
1992 Lazy Daze T/K  23.5' Ford 460 c.i.d./7.6 liter V8 engine, electronic fuel injection, E4OD 4-speed auto transmission
Full time 6/2017
Re: Is 3500 lbs too heavy for a LD to pull?
Reply #17 –
Quote from: Opuntia  - 
Well Judie, you certainly clarify things for me:-)  Thank you!  I saw a Youtube video of a toad blowout.  It was terrible.  Not only did it destroy the car, but the RV was so severely damaged that I think it had to be towed.  I thought a trailer would mitigate that possibility.  I wouldn't mind a damaged trailer as much as I would mind a totaled car.  I also thought towing 4 down put miles on the car.  Is that wrong?  I also read that the insurance is cheaper if it's on a trailer. 

I think I may be misinformed :-) lol
  I also thought towing 4 down put miles on the car.  Is that wrong? 
Yes and no. Yes, the towed car  experiences all the miles you drive, putting a little wear on non-motorized parts, mainly tires. No, the odometer does not register towed miles. 
Chris
Formerly: 2002 30' IB
Re: Is 3500 lbs too heavy for a LD to pull?
Reply #18 –
Quote from: Chris Horst  - 
I also thought towing 4 down put miles on the car.  Is that wrong?
Yes and no. Yes, the towed car  experiences all the miles you drive, putting a little wear on non-motorized parts, mainly tires. No, the odometer does not register towed miles.
Chris

Wow...that's great!  Thank you!  I can deal with tires.  My Element is a 2007 and has 28k miles on it.  I didn't want to do anything that would increase the mileage.  The more you guys/gals chime in, the happier I get! :)
Save a life.
Adopting a pet is the closest a human
will ever come to choosing a relative.
hsus.org  aspca.org
1992 Lazy Daze T/K  23.5' Ford 460 c.i.d./7.6 liter V8 engine, electronic fuel injection, E4OD 4-speed auto transmission
Full time 6/2017
Re: Is 3500 lbs too heavy for a LD to pull?
Reply #19 –
Mimi, I had our LD weighed at a FMCA ralley, that offered 4 corner weighing, i.e., each tire(s) are weighed independently of each other.  I have not had the rig weighed at a truck stop weigh station, but I believe there you only get front axle, rear axle, not the four corners independently.

Most large RV Clubs, FMCA, or Escapees will offer 4 corner weighing at their larger events.  There is a small fee for this service.
2011 MB
Re: Is 3500 lbs too heavy for a LD to pull?
Reply #20 –
"I guess towing 4 down is the answer for me."
----
Mimi, concerns about weight, tire wear, etc., may be moot with this particular vehicle as a toad; according to the dinghy towing guide listed in my previous post, the only towable 2007 Honda SUV is a CRV; the Element is not listed as being towable.

If the dinghy towing guide is correct (and I have no reason to think that it's not), you will not be able to tow your Honda Element "four down", i.e., on its own wheels behind the motorhome. You may want to read what the Element owner's manual says about towing, and talk to a knowledgeable Honda person for corroboration.

2003 TK has a new home
Re: Is 3500 lbs too heavy for a LD to pull?
Reply #21 –
Honda CR-Vs and Elements were towable 4-down until the 2015 model when Honda changed the transmission in the CR-V.  I believe the last production year for the Element was 2011 so all Elements are towable.

Monti
Re: Is 3500 lbs too heavy for a LD to pull?
Reply #22 –
I believe the last production year for the Element was 2011 so all Elements are towable.
----
If this is accurate, do you know the reason why the Element would not be listed as being towable in the dinghy guide? 
2003 TK has a new home
Re: Is 3500 lbs too heavy for a LD to pull?
Reply #23 –
I suggest checking Remco Towing; plugging in the model specifics might offer a definitive answer of whether the Element it or is not towable and if so, what modifications would need to be made.

Store : Remco
2003 TK has a new home