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Topic: Lazy Daze Installed Xantrex XS400 Inverter (Read 1290 times) previous topic - next topic
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Lazy Daze Installed Xantrex XS400 Inverter
Our 06 came with the above inverter. In the 30' IB it is installed under the frig on top of the battery compartment. Over the last few months I have noticed that when boondocking and with it turned on, if I turn on the generator it would apparently trip it. Turning the power switch on the inverter from on to standby and back on again fixed the problem. I should also add that this has a remote power switch installed in the entertainment center.

So, first question, why is this happening when it didn't in the previous 7 plus years?

Today, after several days boondocking we are now in a park with power. The inverter was actually turned on not in standby. However, after plugging into the power pole there was no power at the single outlet the inverter serves. Turning the switch on and off did nothing. Pressing the 7.5 amp circuit breaker on the inverter did nothing. There is also a duplex outlet on the front of the inverter, not that you can use it given the inverter location. I found that the GFCI on that switch had tripped. When I reset it I had power at the outlet in the entertainment center.

Second question, why did that trip? Does all of this suggest that the inverter is near dying?

I am attaching a photo of the front of the inverter.
Re: Lazy Daze Installed Xantrex XS400 Inverter
Reply #1 –
Jim--

     Thx for this topic & photo--something else for me to go look for (I'm assuming it's in the same place on my '05 31' TB).  I'm looking forward to the ensuing discussion. 

     Good luck.
Lynne
LDy Lulubelle, Green '05 31' TB
Lilly, the 4-Legged Alarm
Re: Lazy Daze Installed Xantrex XS400 Inverter
Reply #2 –
Lynne, if you have the remote switch in the entertainment center for an inverter then the inverter should be in the same location.

I called Xantrex yesterday to see what they thought and got this. The representative thought that the transfer circuit is getting weaker with age. This is what allows for a pass through of AC power coming from either the generator or AC power pole.

The specs for the transfer circuit on the XS400 says it is rated at 6 amps. He had two solutions. First, just be sure the inverter is in standby mode, not on, when we either plug in or turn on the generator. Second, replace the inverter.

Any thoughts?

Jim
Re: Lazy Daze Installed Xantrex XS400 Inverter
Reply #3 –
    Hi Jim. Your inverter should be off, or at least in standby, while starting the generator or plugging in to the power pole. The inverters built in relay should switch over the load (TV) to incoming power 110VAC, instead of using battery power to provide 110Vac. Certain transient currents can happen that could trip circuit breakers, or upset electronic circuits. That GFCI on the inverter also protects the outlet in the wall. Over the years dust and dirt can get into the outlets, especially under the refrigerator. With high humidity the dust can conduct enough to trip the GFCI. Vacuum both outlets out once in a while. That bit from the technician about the transfer circuit "getting weak" isn't believable. My experience with Xantrex is that they use good quality components, so I don't think it is ready to fail. More likely failure modes would be something wrong with the output. It's helpful to remember the TV and many other components (DvD players, satellite receivers, etc.) aren't actually off when you think they are. Low power mode listening for the remote's signal to turn on, for instance. I hope this was helpful, RonB
RonB (Bostick) living in San Diego
Original owner of "Bluebelle" a '99 TKB
Re: Lazy Daze Installed Xantrex XS400 Inverter
Reply #4 –
Thanks Ron, the answer is helpful. We are just going to focus having it turned off since the problem hasn't occurred when it was  not turned on. I do know that I have never seen the fault light on when this has happened which makes your thoughts on the issue seem correct.

Jim
Re: Lazy Daze Installed Xantrex XS400 Inverter
Reply #5 –
Hi,  Jim--

     Yes, I've got the remote switch in the entertainment center.  Thx for that info & for this thread...more things to learn from the experience of others.   ;D
Lynne
LDy Lulubelle, Green '05 31' TB
Lilly, the 4-Legged Alarm
Re: Lazy Daze Installed Xantrex XS400 Inverter
Reply #6 –
Quote from: Lynne Broyles-Greenwood  - 
Hi,  Jim--

    Yes, I've got the remote switch in the entertainment center.  Thx for that info & for this thread...more things to learn from the experience of others.  ;D
Jim and Lynne, by "remote switch", do you mean an actual switch of some sort (toggle or otherwise) or are you referring to the 110v duplex outlet in/by the entertainment center which is controlled by/wired to the inverter which is also under the refer? I only have the outlet and no other switch in my '02 30'. Just curious.
Formerly: 2002 30' IB
Re: Lazy Daze Installed Xantrex XS400 Inverter
Reply #7 –
Chris. In our LD the inverter has an on/off switch mounted just above the TV amplifier switch.  It is connected to the inverter by what looks like a modular phone cord. You're old enough to remember phone cords, right?

Jim
Re: Lazy Daze Installed Xantrex XS400 Inverter
Reply #8 –
Chris, I'd be surprised if your rig has an always-on (unswitched) inverter, since that would be a constant drain on your house batteries. I'll bet if you look in the back of the cabinet near the TV, you'll find a switch lurking in the shadows. :-)
Andy Baird
2021 Ford Ranger towing 2019 Airstream 19CB
Previously: 1985 LD Twin/King "Gertie"; 2003 LD Midbath "Skylark"
Re: Lazy Daze Installed Xantrex XS400 Inverter
Reply #9 –
Chris--

     This is discussion is helping learn more about my systems.  In the Entertainment Center (in the center, behind a black lift up cabinet door with an itsy-bitsy bubble level) I've got two switches on the left that must be on for me to watch TV: a small rocker switch which illuminates a green light & a tinier push button switch which also illuminates a green light.  In addition (in the front vertical cabinet immediately to the left/over the driver) I have a surge protector/power cord like available @ Lowes's/etc.--I don't think it's a factory-installed item.  It's wrapped in heavy duty clear tape with very little play & plugged in through a hole in the panel that separates the push button/rocker switches from that open cabinet to the left; I've not traced the lines, but I suspect it must plug into a 110 outlet back inside where the innards are hidden, & the TV power cord (which is part of the spaghetti that disappears into the Entertainment Center) must plug into that surge protector, since the TV doesn't power up unless that's activated, along with the push button & rocker switch.
Lynne
LDy Lulubelle, Green '05 31' TB
Lilly, the 4-Legged Alarm
Re: Lazy Daze Installed Xantrex XS400 Inverter
Reply #10 –
Quote from: Jim & Gayle  - 
Chris. In our LD the inverter has an on/off switch mounted just above the TV amplifier switch.  It is connected to the inverter by what looks like a modular phone cord. You're old enough to remember phone cords, right?

Jim
Of course mine has the inverter switch - a rocker switch right by the TV amplifier. Just a senior brain phart.

Chris
Formerly: 2002 30' IB
Re: Lazy Daze Installed Xantrex XS400 Inverter
Reply #11 –
Yet again, I forgot to turn off the inverter when I turned on the generator this morning. Within about 10 seconds we heard the inverter trip. This raises another wrinkle that I failed to consider when I first posted about this issue.

We also have a hardwired Progressive EMS 30 which doesn't allow power from either a power pedestal or the generator into the electrical system for just over 2 minutes. So, why would the inverter be getting any power as a result of the generator when there is no indication of power in the rig? Could the problem be with the EMS?

Jim
Re: Lazy Daze Installed Xantrex XS400 Inverter
Reply #12 –
Hi Jim. When you say "you heard the inverter trip", I'm not sure what that means. The inverter has an internal relay that switches the outlet it provides power to, to the incoming 110v. The inverter stays on, but the 110v. outlet is now being provided power by your shore line, or generator. If the EMS is supposed to delay 2 minutes it doesn't seem like that is working. I use the clock on my microwave to tell me when the generator power is applied to the coach. Followed by the refrigerator switching to ac if it is turned on. No delay for plugging in, 30 seconds for the genset.
   I have the Xantrex 400w sine wave inverter, although I don't use it for much. I'm thinking of adding the PI EMS hard wired version with the remote panel soon.  They would both go in the vanity cabinet just above the battery box.  RonB
RonB (Bostick) living in San Diego
Original owner of "Bluebelle" a '99 TKB
Re: Lazy Daze Installed Xantrex XS400 Inverter
Reply #13 –
Ron, I think I was mistaken about the noise being the inverter tripping. This morning I again forgot to turn off the inverter before turning on the generator. I remembered before the gen turned over twice and had not caught and stopped. The inverter was no longer on and I had to turn the power switch off and on to get it back on.

After turning on the generator power does not show up at the microwave for at least 2 minutes. I have no idea how this could happen with the EMS apparently working.

Jim
Re: Lazy Daze Installed Xantrex XS400 Inverter
Reply #14 –
Jim. The generator uses your house batteries to start the engine, and at maybe a hundred amp draw, the voltage most probably would drop low enough to upset the inverter. The inverter is designed to alarm and/or shut down if the voltage on your house batteries gets below (usually) 10.5 volts even for a few seconds. This shutdown would happen just as the starter motor on the generator was run, maybe a few seconds later. Nothing to do with the EMS, it is only looking at the AC. I'm sure the generator still has it's 30 second delay before the EMS would even know about the generator output. Hope this helped.  RonB
RonB (Bostick) living in San Diego
Original owner of "Bluebelle" a '99 TKB
Re: Lazy Daze Installed Xantrex XS400 Inverter
Reply #15 –
Thanks again Ron. That makes sense. We both seem to recall that we were able to turn on the generator in the past with the inverter on and it didn't affect the inverter. That said, our memories aren't what they used to be and maybe we remembered to have it turned off.

Jim
Re: Lazy Daze Installed Xantrex XS400 Inverter
Reply #16 –
Hi Jim. If the inverter used to be ok with generator startup, it  could be a little corrosion, or just older house batteries. Less than perfect connections at the battery, or just older batteries could cause this symptom. Current from the battery is provided by a chemical reaction, and voltage can lag behind a large demand just by the batteries being cold. RonB
RonB (Bostick) living in San Diego
Original owner of "Bluebelle" a '99 TKB
Re: Lazy Daze Installed Xantrex XS400 Inverter
Reply #17 –
Quote from: RonB  - 
Hi Jim. If the inverter used to be ok with generator startup, it  could be a little corrosion, or just older house batteries. Less than perfect connections at the battery, or just older batteries could cause this symptom. Current from the battery is provided by a chemical reaction, and voltage can lag behind a large demand just by the batteries being cold. RonB

You bring up good points. The batteries were new in Jan 2014 Trojan T-145s. I checked the connections and all are tight and corrosion free. In the end I can't guarantee that this didn't always do it. We have been using the genny quite a bit more in recent months and perhaps that has increased the chances of our leaving it on.

Our rig has the factory installed battery disconnect switch. I don't know if that could impact this or how to check it for a problem. I do have a multi-meter and it is possible that I know how to turn it on. :D

The only way I know to test it would be for someone else with this same setup trying to turn on the generator while XS400 is on and see if it does or doesn't happen.

Jim

Re: Lazy Daze Installed Xantrex XS400 Inverter
Reply #18 –

Jim

I have found a several bad factory battery switches through the years.
When they go bad, it results in a intermittent connection or poor that cause all sorts of strange symptoms.
Check for voltage drop across the switch, while turning the switch on and off and few times. 

Here is the replacement that LD used for years, not sure if your LD has the same one.
Amazon.com: HELLA 002843011 2843 Series 100A Rating Battery Master Switch:...
While it looks like marine rated switch, it isn't water-proof or vapor-proof.
The switch's contacts can corrode and eventually fail.

Larry

As an Amazon Associate Lazy Daze Owners' Group earns from qualifying purchases.
Larry
2003 23.5' Front Lounge, since new.  Previously 1983 22' Front Lounge.
Tow vehicles  2020 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2001 Jeep Cherokee
Photo Collection: Lazy Daze
Re: Lazy Daze Installed Xantrex XS400 Inverter
Reply #19 –
Quote from: Jim & Gayle  - 
You bring up good points. The batteries were new in Jan 2014 Trojan T-145s. I checked the connections and all are tight and corrosion free. In the end I can't guarantee that this didn't always do it. We have been using the genny quite a bit more in recent months and perhaps that has increased the chances of our leaving it on.

Our rig has the factory installed battery disconnect switch. I don't know if that could impact this or how to check it for a problem. I do have a multi-meter and it is possible that I know how to turn it on. :D

The only way I know to test it would be for someone else with this same setup trying to turn on the generator while XS400 is on and see if it does or doesn't happen.

Jim
Jim, send me a PM with step by step instructions on what you want to do and I can test it on our LD for you.
Chris
Formerly: 2002 30' IB
Re: Lazy Daze Installed Xantrex XS400 Inverter
Reply #20 –
Quote from: Larry Wade  - 
Jim

I have found a several bad factory battery switches through the years.
When they go bad, it results in a intermittent connection or poor that cause all sorts of strange symptoms.
Check for voltage drop across the switch, while turning the switch on and off and few times. 

Here is the replacement that LD used for years, not sure if your LD has the same one.
Amazon.com: HELLA 002843011 2843 Series 100A Rating Battery Master Switch:...
While it looks like marine rated switch, it isn't water-proof or vapor-proof.
The switch's contacts can corrode and eventually fail.

Larry

It appears to be the same switch. I assume that I should turn off the solar controller while doing this test? How much of a drop should I be looking for to indicate a problem with the switch?

I know that you have talked about or recommended a marine grade switch but I'm not sure how or where the switch is mounted and I assume it would require new, longer cables to make the connection to the batteries is that correct?

Obviously, the simplest solution, if there is a problem with the switch, is to replace it with the same model.

Jim
As an Amazon Associate Lazy Daze Owners' Group earns from qualifying purchases.
Re: Lazy Daze Installed Xantrex XS400 Inverter
Reply #21 –
How much voltage drop?
A switch with clean contacts should have next to no voltage drop.
A .1-volt would be the limit. Voltage drop, in the primary circuits, is consequential, it effects both the charging and consumption of battery power in a negative way.
What has been seen is a inconsistency in the voltage drop as the switch is cycled and off several times.
in some cases, you can feel roughness or looseness in the switch.
if you have a device that shows the coach's battery voltage, have someone watch it, as the switch is cycled, and report the indicated voltage.
It should stay the same.
Now try the same test with as large a electrical load as possible, turn everything on.
A bad switch will have wide voltage changes, under a heavy load.
 
Larry
Larry
2003 23.5' Front Lounge, since new.  Previously 1983 22' Front Lounge.
Tow vehicles  2020 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2001 Jeep Cherokee
Photo Collection: Lazy Daze