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12 volt pump, how strong is it?
This is a bit off subject but then again not and someone in here may have experience with this so I'll give it a shot.
I plan on leaving for a desert vacation in early February which is earlier than I've ever left before so I'm concerned about plumbing in my house freezing. My idea is to use my spare 12 volt pump to pump anti freeze through the entire house just like winterizing an RV. The water inlet is at one end of the house which is fifty feet long and to get to the farthest bathroom the plumbing goes up through the attic. Any thoughts on if a standard 12 volt pump is strong enough to push anti freeze that far and with that elevation change?
Discuss anything with anyone and disagree agreeably. Always be polite and respectful.
Re: 12 volt pump, how strong is it?
Reply #1 –
We travel south for the winter and have our house winterized before we leave.  We turn off the water to the house, drain the water heater (after turning off the power to it, of course), the plumber blows out all the lines and then puts RV antifreeze down all the drains, toilets, and washing machine.  He does not pump antifreeze through the lines.

I don't know the answer to your question regarding the 12-volt pump, but if the temperatures in your area will be getting down where the lines will freeze, I'd suggest either having the lines blown out or leaving the heat on at a low temperature, and leaving cabinet doors open that contain plumbing along an outside wall.  I can't imagine pumping antifreeze through lines that contain water will do a lot of good (it may...I don't know how much antifreeze can be diluted before it loses its effectiveness).
Linda Hylton
Re: 12 volt pump, how strong is it?
Reply #2 –
Quote from: Linda Hylton  - 
We travel south for the winter and have our house winterized before we leave.  We turn off the water to the house, drain the water heater (after turning off the power to it, of course), the plumber blows out all the lines and then puts RV antifreeze down all the drains, toilets, and washing machine.  He does not pump antifreeze through the lines.

I don't know the answer to your question regarding the 12-volt pump, but if the temperatures in your area will be getting down where the lines will freeze, I'd suggest either having the lines blown out or leaving the heat on at a low temperature, and leaving cabinet doors open that contain plumbing along an outside wall.  I can't imagine pumping antifreeze through lines that contain water will do a lot of good (it may...I don't know how much antifreeze can be diluted before it loses its effectiveness).
We heat with wood so leaving heat on won't work. We do have a propane heater for overnight trips but it's hooked to a hundred pound tank that doesn't last long and it's just for occasional use. Blowing out the pipes is a good thought though. Not sure I trust it as much as antifreeze but worth looking into and maybe if I blew out the pipes first the 12 volt pump wouldn't have to push all that standing water out of the way and would increase chance of success.
Discuss anything with anyone and disagree agreeably. Always be polite and respectful.
Re: 12 volt pump, how strong is it?
Reply #3 –
Shurflo pumps usually pump to about 65 PSI.  A 10 foot rise, or head, is approximately 4.3 PSI.  The pump should be able to easily push water from floor level into an attic.  Distance is not an issue other than the volume of water or antifreeze needed.

Personally, I think I would choose blowing out the lines, then dump antifreeze into the traps.  I would choose this because I would not want antifreeze, which is toxic, in my potable water system.  Remember that you will have a water heater that is full of antifreeze, all your lines will be full, an expansion tank if  you have one will be full, and that is a LOT of antifreeze to get rid of.  I might start by hooking up the pump to PULL water out rather than push antifreeze in.  Start the pump, then open the farthest faucet, close it and open the next, and so on, until you have pulled most of the water out. Then, using a compressor and an air tank, put some pressure in the lines and open faucets beginning at the closest and progressing to the farthest.  If you get sputtering from the faucet, that is residual water in the line.  Keep the air going until the sputtering ends.

If you are committed to pushing in antifreeze, that line going up into the attic will act like a siphon, reducing the pumping pressure needed.  This happens because, as you drain water out the far bathroom faucets, you pull antifreeze into the line.

Ken F in NM
'08 MB
Re: 12 volt pump, how strong is it?
Reply #4 –
Quote from: Kenneth Fears  - 
Shurflo pumps usually pump to about 65 PSI.  A 10 foot rise, or head, is approximately 4.3 PSI.  The pump should be able to easily push water from floor level into an attic.  Distance is not an issue other than the volume of water or antifreeze needed.

Personally, I think I would choose blowing out the lines, then dump antifreeze into the traps.  I would choose this because I would not want antifreeze, which is toxic, in my potable water system.  Remember that you will have a water heater that is full of antifreeze, all your lines will be full, an expansion tank if  you have one will be full, and that is a LOT of antifreeze to get rid of.  I might start by hooking up the pump to PULL water out rather than push antifreeze in.  Start the pump, then open the farthest faucet, close it and open the next, and so on, until you have pulled most of the water out. Then, using a compressor and an air tank, put some pressure in the lines and open faucets beginning at the closest and progressing to the farthest.  If you get sputtering from the faucet, that is residual water in the line.  Keep the air going until the sputtering ends.

If you are committed to pushing in antifreeze, that line going up into the attic will act like a siphon, reducing the pumping pressure needed.  This happens because, as you drain water out the far bathroom faucets, you pull antifreeze into the line.

Ken F in NM
I'd use the same RV antifreeze that I use in my LD so that's not an issue but yeah I figure ten gallons or so and that's a lot. Water heater is an on demand so that's not an issue  but I do like the idea of blowing out the lines. My fear is some water would remain and settle at low points and freeze there.
Good thoughts on power of the pump though. Years ago before I put in my gravity flow system I had a 12 volt pump and a pressure tank and the pump would come on when the pressure in the tank got low but we never lost pressure in shower at far end of house. I was unclear if the pump alone could do that without residual pressure in the tank but you make good points on that. I think it will work.
Discuss anything with anyone and disagree agreeably. Always be polite and respectful.
Re: 12 volt pump, how strong is it?
Reply #5 –
We winterized sprinkler pipes every winter.  They were fairly close to the surface and would freeze otherwise.  They were just blown out - nothing added.

I agree blownout the pipes and put Rv antifreeze down the places water stays (eg p-traps under fixture (sink, toilet, shower/tub - don't forget clothes washer and dishwasher as they have p-traps also though they might share one with a sink,

Jane

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Jane & Scott
Currently have a 1989 TK  LD we did a lot of upgrades on.
Bigfoot 25RQ Twin on order with early summer 2024 ETA

Our smartphone autocorrects into very poor English.
 We disclaim the illusion of ignorance this creates as we have enough ignorance we rightly claim.
Re: 12 volt pump, how strong is it?
Reply #6 –
Quote from: JandS2  - 
We winterized sprinkler pipes every winter.  They were fairly close to the surface and would freeze otherwise.  They were just blown out - nothing added.

I agree blownout the pipes and put Rv antifreeze down the places water stays (eg p-traps under fixture (sink, toilet, shower/tub - don't forget clothes washer and dishwasher as they have p-traps also though they might share one with a sink,

Jane

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God thought on washer. We have a front loader so I'm unsure how that would work or if blowing out pipes would blow out lines to washer itself. Thanks for pointing this out to me. I completely forgot about the washer. Have to look into this. Leaving home while it's still cold is new to me and a bit more complicated than I thought.
Discuss anything with anyone and disagree agreeably. Always be polite and respectful.
Re: 12 volt pump, how strong is it?
Reply #7 –
Quote from: Sawyer  - 
...but I do like the idea of blowing out the lines. My fear is some water would remain and settle at low points and freeze there.

You would put antifreeze in all the p-traps.  Any residual water that may remain in the water lines after blowing them out (and it would be a *very* small amount, if any), wouldn't hurt if it froze.

We've been doing this for a number of years and haven't had any problems when we return home in the spring, so I know it works.
Linda Hylton
Re: 12 volt pump, how strong is it?
Reply #8 –
Quote from: Linda Hylton  - 
You would put antifreeze in all the p-traps.  Any residual water that may remain in the water lines after blowing them out (and it would be a *very* small amount, if any), wouldn't hurt if it froze.

We've been doing this for a number of years and haven't had any problems when we return home in the spring, so I know it works.

Been doing some research on this and I don't think my compressor is big enough but maybe I could rent one. This opens another chain of problems though. Will it fit in the back of my Honda side by side with tracks which is the only way into my house in the winter and will my generator power it. Probably great for you but in my situation I think I'll have to go with antifreeze. Thanks for input though. :)
Discuss anything with anyone and disagree agreeably. Always be polite and respectful.
Re: 12 volt pump, how strong is it?
Reply #9 –
Homes built in cold winter areas usually are constructed with a valve(s) at the low spot(s), that allow the fresh water system to be fully drained.
Vacuum breakers are often locate at the high points of the system, allowing air into the pipes that replaces the water, manual valve can also be used.
Sure your home isn't plumbed this way?

Looking at Shurflow's 4008 pump specification sheet, it doesn't have a chart chowing the flow rates a various head  heights.
This type of chart is normally available for commercial pumps.
Guess the assumption is there will never a plumbing fixture in an RV that is over over 10' high.
Most RV pumps will lift fluid up two stories but the flow rate will be slow. As long as it makes the lift, it 's just a matter of time to fill the system. You might be surprised how much anti-freeze it will take to fill a home's plumbing system.

Larry

Larry
2003 23.5' Front Lounge, since new.  Previously 1983 22' Front Lounge.
Tow vehicles  2020 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2001 Jeep Cherokee
Photo Collection: Lazy Daze
Re: 12 volt pump, how strong is it?
Reply #10 –
I'm in north Missouri, & having read some of the horror stories, I now turn off at the main valve in the basement whenever I leave. 

With the recent bi-monthly sojourns to central Texas during freezing weather up here, I've opened the faucets in the basement (rec room bar/BR) to drain the lines (everything is run under the floor joists above the basement ceiling/beneath the main floor, so when faucets in the kitchen & a BR are opened upstairs to let air through, gravity seems to run the lines empty after about five gallons--I catch the H2O to water plants before I go & when I get back).  I turn off the toilet valves & flush to drain, then put RV antifreeze in the traps.  This is just precautionary, should the electricity go out & there be no power to the heat pump w/ natural gas backup that I set to 50; the H2O heaters are also natural gas turned to the "vacation" setting--I don't drain those, but both are in the unfinished parts of the basement, with floor drains nearby, which I hope would mitigate any potential disaster. 

Didn't think about the washer & dishwasher, though--I forgot about the residual water in the water pump in those (when I moved in Dec. 1989 I didn't know there was a water pump in the washer 'til I'd gotten things hooked up at the new place, started to run a load, & there was suddenly water spraying everywhere; the repairman said the residual water in the water pump had likely frozen & burst the pump during the 15 mile drive & several hours sitting in the open livestock trailer as we moved stuff into the house  :P ).

Good discussions & more things I should think about.  Thx--

Lynne
Lynne
LDy Lulubelle, Green '05 31' TB
Lilly, the 4-Legged Alarm
 
Re: 12 volt pump, how strong is it?
Reply #11 –
Quote from: Larry W  - 
Homes built in cold winter areas usually are constructed with a valve(s) at the low spot(s), that allow the fresh water system to be fully drained.
Vacuum breakers are often locate at the high points of the system, allowing air into the pipes that replaces the water, manual valve can also be used.
Sure your home isn't plumbed this way?

Looking at Shurflow's 4008 pump specification sheet, it doesn't have a chart chowing the flow rates a various head  heights.
This type of chart is normally available for commercial pumps.
Guess the assumption is there will never a plumbing fixture in an RV that is over over 10' high.
Most RV pumps will lift fluid up two stories but the flow rate will be slow. As long as it makes the lift, it 's just a matter of time to fill the system. You might be surprised how much anti-freeze it will take to fill a home's plumbing system.

Larry



I built my house which is really just a glorified cabin and it's built on
a post foundation so it gets real cold underneath. I didn't want to put drain valves under the low points due to freezing concerns.
Sounds like you think the 12 volt pumps plenty strong to do the job and that seems to be the general concensus in here so I'm somewhat reassured.
I'm figuring 10 gallons minimum for antifreeze which at four bucks a gallon isn't too bad really in the scheme of things.

Photo shows how house sits up pretty high. It's just cement board around the post to box it in.

Discuss anything with anyone and disagree agreeably. Always be polite and respectful.