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Topic: Current owner took care of it, previous owner neglected it. What to expect? (Read 581 times) previous topic - next topic
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Current owner took care of it, previous owner neglected it. What to expect?
I'm looking at this rig tomorrow: 23' Lazy Daze motor home

The current owner has had it for 8 years and takes it out approximately once a month. Says it's very driveable and mechanically solid. Seems to take good care of it, stores it under shelter with a humidity sensor inside and has fixed it up a lot from the previous owner. Selling it only because their family outgrew it and needs something larger.

Previous owner badly neglected it. There was a leak into the cabover area so bad the wood was completely rotted through. When the current owner acquired it he stripped out all rotted wood he could find and rebuilt it "better than factory standard", he claims.

What sort of issues would you expect/look for with this sort of situation? If it feels right then I do plan to get it inspected, but I want to know if others more knowledgeable than I would run away screaming before I start throwing money at it.
Re: Current owner took care of it, previous owner neglected it. What to expect?
Reply #1 –
In the photos the work done on the cab over looks questionable. If I am seeing it right, the caulking job is very rough. When I see that in person I am always skeptical of the underlying work quality. If that is silicone caulking, it is almost worthless. Silicone is a bad way to seal these areas.

If you look at it and decide you are seriously considering it, ask to pull out a few screws up inside the over cab bed and look for rusty threads and moisture. The environment in this part of Washington can be brutal on these wood framed LDs. FWIW I would never buy a coach or camper with windows in the front facing forward. My personal bias. I don't trust em.

Larry has rebuilt a badly rotted cab over, I'm sure he would be a great source to ask back ground questions of.  I have rebuilt the rear end of one LD, but would never attempt a cab over. Maybe the seller is a crafts person with great skills, there are a host of wood boat builders around the Puget Sound. As much as I love my old vintage RVs and the work that comes with, this one would frighten me. 

If the engine is a 460, not a 351 that is a plus. 

Just a few thoughts...
Paul
'92 Mid Bath
Re: Current owner took care of it, previous owner neglected it. What to expect?
Reply #2 –
In 1990, LD eliminated the old, leaky sheet metal nose and it's front window, replacing it with a one-piece plastic nose.
This change eliminated most of the over head cab leaks that are so prevalent in pre-1990 LDs.
I, the pre-1990s,  is almost impossible to keep the front window and side seams leak free
This 1988 LD has not been so lucky. Once the overhead nose has a lot of damage, it is very difficult to repair since the supporting, structural pieces are usually destroyed during the rot and cannot be replaced without opening up the side walls, a huge and expensive job.  Not saying it  has not been done correctly but, once covered up again, it is hard to tell what was done. Even redone, it is still difficult to keep the nose and window sealed

Twin/Kings are subject to leakage around the rear windows and the two rear supporting columns. Cap, window or a roof leak can leak to serious, next to unrepairable rot. Check this area too as well as checking under every windows (window sealants have improved too through the years since)

As usual, I suggest looking for a 1990-1991 or newer LD to get alway from a host of construction problems and to get a 4-speed transmission. Pre-1990 transmissions do not have overdrive, which will have a mileage loss of 2-4 MPG, compared to a newer, 4-speed overdrive transmission.

Larry
Larry
2003 23.5' Front Lounge, since new.  Previously 1983 22' Front Lounge.
Tow vehicles  2020 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2001 Jeep Cherokee
Photo Collection: Lazy Daze
Re: Current owner took care of it, previous owner neglected it. What to expect?
Reply #3 –
Thanks for the fantastic replies, Larry and Paul. I'll still check it out today to get a better feel for them (this will be the third LD I've walked through) but I'll keep in mind the likelihood that it has serious issues.
Re: Current owner took care of it, previous owner neglected it. What to expect?
Reply #4 –
It never hurts to look, and the more you see the more you know.  Good luck, as I recall you have a very tight budget, so a good challenge to find the right RV.
Paul
'92 Mid Bath
Re: Current owner took care of it, previous owner neglected it. What to expect?
Reply #5 –
Hmm. So, I decided to call the mothership to see if I could get more information on the changes pre-1990 and post 1990, and on the leaking concern. The receptionist forwarded my call to the service department manager.

I don't think I've ever encountered worse customer service. He got very defensive and had no useful information whatsoever. I inquired if pre-1990s tended to have worse issues leaking because of the nose not being a single piece, and he goes into a rant about how all old vehicles are going to have problems, of any brand. No matter how much I tried to diffuse him, explain I'm super excited for a LD and that I'm just trying to get more information, it made no difference. I ask, "Was there changes in the year 1990 that make it less prone to leaking?" He says, "We're always changing every year. Every single year...." (enter another long rant).

He kept making really snide comments like "I dunno, maybe the internet will know." I kept explaining that I was actually contacting them because I thought they would have the information I needed, but he just kept going off about how he can't defend against things said on the internet and doesn't know what else to tell me. And no matter how much I focused on the actual details of the info I was seeking, and praised the LD brand, he simply would not lose the attitude or give me the slightest piece of helpful info.

I'm pretty taken aback. I thought with such a good reputation for quality they would know their product and be able to tell me something useful. Is this a common experience when contacting the mothership?
Re: Current owner took care of it, previous owner neglected it. What to expect?
Reply #6 –
Good on you for calling LD. They are a good source for some things. In my experience though when it comes to talking about old rigs, they want to have you buy it, bring it to them to fix, so their help is limited. I take it you talked with Vince.  Don't be too put off, he is really OK, and he is, from what I saw, busier than a one armed paper hanger. If you get a chance to visit the. In CA, you will see it's not a Lexus dealership!  ;)

Where the LD Mothership shines is when you need a specific obscure part for your 25+ year old motor home, and they can lay hands on it. I like what the company has done for nearly 60 years, but they are lovably quirky.

You won't find anyone more knowledgeable and helpful than Larry, Joan, and some of the other veterans here. That includes any RV resource I have seen. The only comparison is the Airforums for Airstreams.
Paul
'92 Mid Bath
Re: Current owner took care of it, previous owner neglected it. What to expect?
Reply #7 –
Bitty, you may find Andy's resource very helpful in assessing the changes made to Lazy Daze motorhomes over many years; it may not answer all questions, but it's a great start :

Changes by year

It's regrettable that you did not receive the answers that you sought from the factory, and felt that "attitude" and rudeness took the place of information. I have found Vince to be an excellent source of quantifiable answers to specific questions on "newer" LD models, materials, parts and repair costs, construction methods, and sometimes for "local" sources for particular jobs, e.g., glass work, welding shops, Ford service, etc.. But, IMO, it's unrealistic to expect a single person, even the head tech, to be able to pull the answers out of his head to any one of the hundreds , if not thousands, of questions that have been asked about the various models produced over the past 60 years. For many LD owners (and those who want to be), our "ask, share, inform" forum is the go-to source for accurate, reliable information on any number of topics. In the past 13 years, I've called the factory on only half dozen or so occasions, always for the reasons listed above; for everything else, I rely on the expertise and experience of the many talented, savvy people on this board. 

You asked if "pre-1990s tended to have worse issues leaking because of the nose not being a single piece, and ... "Was there changes in the year 1990 that make it less prone to leaking?"  I can understand why you may have felt that factory corroboration of information was desirable, but, in this case, Larry had already provided the answers to both of these "leak" questions in his earlier reply to your post. His broad experience with pretty much every aspect of the many vintages and models of LDs over many years certainly establishes him as a highly credible source.  Additionally, what Vince reportedly said about all old vehicles having problems may have seemed like "deflection" and smoke blowing, but it was definitely accurate; high initial quality notwithstanding, the older the rig and the less diligently maintained the rig over its life, the more problems that it will suffer, and the more it will cost to repair those problems, if they're repairable at all. 

I realize that the search for "the right one" can be frustrating, tedious, and disappointing on many fronts; I hope you will be able to find something that works for you. 

As ever, YMMV.
2003 TK has a new home
Re: Current owner took care of it, previous owner neglected it. What to expect?
Reply #8 –
Quote from: JCT  - 
Bitty, you may find Andy's resource very helpful in assessing the changes made to Lazy Daze motorhomes over many years; it may not answer all questions, but it's a great start :

Changes by year

It's regrettable that you did not receive the answers that you sought from the factory, and felt that "attitude" and rudeness took the place of information. I have found Vince to be an excellent source of quantifiable answers to specific questions on "newer" LD models, materials, parts and repair costs, construction methods, and sometimes for "local" sources for particular jobs, e.g., glass work, welding shops, Ford service, etc.. But, IMO, it's unrealistic to expect a single person, even the head tech, to be able to pull the answers out of his head to any one of the hundreds , if not thousands, of questions that have been asked about the various models produced over the past 60 years. For many LD owners (and those who want to be), our "ask, share, inform" forum is the go-to source for accurate, reliable information on any number of topics. In the past 13 years, I've called the factory on only half dozen or so occasions, always for the reasons listed above; for everything else, I rely on the expertise and experience of the many talented, savvy people on this board. 

You asked if "pre-1990s tended to have worse issues leaking because of the nose not being a single piece, and ... "Was there changes in the year 1990 that make it less prone to leaking?"  I can understand why you may have felt that factory corroboration of information was desirable, but, in this case, Larry had already provided the answers to both of these "leak" questions in his earlier reply to your post. His broad experience with pretty much every aspect of the many vintages and models of LDs over many years certainly establishes him as a highly credible source.  Additionally, what Vince reportedly said about all old vehicles having problems may have seemed like "deflection" and smoke blowing, but it was definitely accurate; high initial quality notwithstanding, the older the rig and the less diligently maintained the rig over its life, the more problems that it will suffer, and the more it will cost to repair those problems, if they're repairable at all.
Thanks for the link.

The reason I called the factory was because I was hoping there was potentially some solution they offered for a known problem. Those specific questions were just my attempt to get him to stop defensively ranting to me and engage with the actual subject I was calling about.

My idea was that since they currently use a single piece plastic nose, perhaps that could be purchased and fitted on. I knew it was a long shot so I figured they'd have the best info on that or other potential solutions. But since there was never any admittance of a design issue, the conversation couldn't get that far. "It's all about maintenance" was the closest I got, but I know around here where maintenance is highly stressed, if someone says a design issue causes leaks DESPITE good maintenance then I'm paying attention.

I don't expect a single tech to have all the answers. I do expect them to engage with the details of my question, admit it when they don't know, and avoid making rude, snide comments throughout the interaction. That really shouldn't be too much to ask.
Re: Current owner took care of it, previous owner neglected it. What to expect?
Reply #9 –
I don't think it is realistic to have the expectation that any RV should last 25 years. So I can understand how a busy person on the front line would get defensive given your line of questioning. For all practical purposes the unit you are looking at ( or have purchased) is beyond it's expected life. I doubt it would be advisable to buy it and try to repair it. A better maintained unit, potentially stored inside, might last 25 years, but that should be the exception, not the rule.
Todd (and Steve)
'17 Winnebago Minnie Winnie and '13 Honda CRV
(Former '99 RB owners from 2012-2016)
Re: Current owner took care of it, previous owner neglected it. What to expect?
Reply #10 –
Quote from: tjfhrb_16034  - 
I don't think it is realistic to have the expectation that any RV should last 25 years. So I can understand how a busy person on the front line would get defensive given your line of questioning. For all practical purposes the unit you are looking at ( or have purchased) is beyond it's expected life.

You know, tjf, he could have just said that. It's totally news to me. He could have told me that and I would have thanked him for the info.

Instead, he decided to be rude. Throughout. And rant and rail at me as if I was the problem. (Someone who has spent the past several months excitedly promoting the brand to anyone who would listen).

I find it interesting that folks around here are totally cool with that. To me, that says a lot about what sort of support I could expect from the factory if I had a LD issue, and also what sort of behavior is acceptable around here. Neither sounds like my cup of tea.
Re: Current owner took care of it, previous owner neglected it. What to expect?
Reply #11 –
I'm with Bitty--it sounds as if whoever she talked with (probably Vince) was unnecessary rude and dismissive. As she said, if he was too busy to talk or didn't know the answers, he could have just said so politely. Prospective buyers (yes, even of used Lazy Dazes!) deserve better treatment.
Andy Baird
2021 Ford Ranger towing 2019 Airstream 19CB
Previously: 1985 LD Twin/King "Gertie"; 2003 LD Midbath "Skylark"
Re: Current owner took care of it, previous owner neglected it. What to expect?
Reply #12 –
Bitty, I can't speak for others here, but if you are referring to me as being cool with rudeness or with railing, then you have an incorrect perception. It is possible my writing skills have caused this, for I am not a perfect communicator. I re-read and re-read my posts, and can see how poorly they are written. I have always been more focused on problem solving than on manners or verbiage.

It is a shame you were treated poorly.

I try not to judge other people, though I often fail, having not walked the proverbial mile in anyone's shoes but my own. I sincerely wish you luck with your search.
Paul
'92 Mid Bath
Re: Current owner took care of it, previous owner neglected it. What to expect?
Reply #13 –
Bitty, my institutional memory on interactions only goes back five years or so.  In that time the mothership never has had much a reputation for helping people with questions about buying a used Lazy Daze.  But after one purchases the RV I have found the folks very good to work with.  I live in Virginia, the several times I called the factory they understood that I could not just pop over for them to have a look at a problem.  I would have to say factory support is actually fairly good.  Given that the factory warranty is only good for the original owner I have been surprised at how long they were willing to talk to me on the phone.  But when I was looking, they would not entertain questions over the phone or even do a inspection of the RV before I purchased (they said they were more than willing to look at the RV after I purchased from the owner or if he were to bring it in).  Lazy Daze is a small family owned business that sells every thing they build, and only builds what they can sell.  There is not room in the budget for extra staff, as in a customer service rep.  I doubt that if you called a company in Elkhart, IN they would have talked to you about a 25 year old RV.  The same is true for a home builder or a car builder, they would not talk to you about general problems in product that is 25 years old.   
Of course that does not excuse bad manners.  A simple polite statement would have worked wonders.  All of us when we are starting out need a little hand holding (I did anyway).  My search took about 5 years start to finnish and 2 years to find the right RV in a place that I could get to and get home (there were a some good ones that got away before I latched onto a keeper).
Good Hunting
John
Previously: 2007 Mid Bath
Re: Current owner took care of it, previous owner neglected it. What to expect?
Reply #14 –
Bitty

In defense of Vince (if in fact that's who you spoke to) please visualize the world (Lazy Daze) as he sees it!

He is virtually a one-man-show. I couldn't begin to list the items on his 'Job description' because it's too fluid. But if you have had the opportunity, as I've had, to watch his daily routine you might wonder why or how he manages to keep up. He may be involved in his normal work load when the receptionist calls him to the phone. The caller may be someone with an older L.D. or someone just seeking a few answers. I've been there, done that. It's best if you have previously though out what it is you want answered very specifically, it will return a direct answer to the best of his ability. Unfortunately that's not always the case.
Then he's no sooner back to doing what ever it was when he was interrupted and he is again called to the front desk to talk to a walk-in possible/probable/maybe customer. Again direct questions result in direct answers.

That customer satisfied he no sooner returns to his work place than Reception calls to set up an appointment for someone needing service next month. You can see where this is going... it takes a certain temperament to handle that many distractions and still get the work done that the Boss requires of you. It's been my experience that, although he has his hands full, he does a marvelous job of juggling  his many tasks and usually does it with a smile.

Steve S.
Lazy Bones & Cedar
Steve S.
Lazy Bones & Cedar
2004 30'IB (Island Bed)
Yesterday is History, Tomorrow is a Mystery
Live for the day!
Re: Current owner took care of it, previous owner neglected it. What to expect?
Reply #15 –
Quote from: Lazy Bones  - 
Bitty

In defense of Vince (if in fact that's who you spoke to) please visualize the world (Lazy Daze) as he sees it!

He is virtually a one-man-show. I couldn't begin to list the items on his 'Job description' because it's too fluid. But if you have had the opportunity, as I've had, to watch his daily routine you might wonder why or how he manages to keep up.

That's a bit concerning. Is this a temporary thing, or is it the company's long-term plan to routinely overwork their most essential personnel?

Quote from: paul banbury  - 
Bitty, I can't speak for others here, but if you are referring to me as being cool with rudeness or with railing, then you have an incorrect perception. It is possible my writing skills have caused this, for I am not a perfect communicator. I re-read and re-read my posts, and can see how poorly they are written. I have always been more focused on problem solving than on manners or verbiage.

It is a shame you were treated poorly.

I try not to judge other people, though I often fail, having not walked the proverbial mile in anyone's shoes but my own. I sincerely wish you luck with your search.


No worries, Paul, you're fine. :)

The LD I was going to see was sold while I was on my way to it. The search continues...
Re: Current owner took care of it, previous owner neglected it. What to expect?
Reply #16 –
"Is this a temporary thing, or is it the company's long-term plan to routinely overwork their most essential personnel?"

I regret that you are troubled by the situation at the Mothership but as long term L.D. owners will admit that's the way it is and although many have tried to change things, including myself, it doesn't work. But there comes a point when you resolve to work with the system because you darn well can't make it suit your desires. If you are of the opinion that because of one irritating contact the whole company is at fault you are sadly mistaken.

You should have been around a few years ago before Ed Newton relinquished control to his son Steve Newton, the current CEO.  Two things come to my mind concerning Ed, while my wife and I were sitting in a 30' display model he came in, sat down and opened a conversation. The crux of the dialog was that he thought that the 30' was too big for my wife and I and told us that right to our faces. The second part was when I made a comments that I was glad the new units (2004) came with a Tachometer. His response was "What do you need that for?"

The Newtons and their long time employees have a certain mind-set and you'd best adapt to it or go looking elsewhere for a 2nd best motor home.

Steve S.
Lazy Bones & Cedar
Steve S.
Lazy Bones & Cedar
2004 30'IB (Island Bed)
Yesterday is History, Tomorrow is a Mystery
Live for the day!
 
Re: Current owner took care of it, previous owner neglected it. What to expect?
Reply #17 –
Quote from: Lazy Bones  - 
"Is this a temporary thing, or is it the company's long-term plan to routinely overwork their most essential personnel?"

I regret that you are troubled by the situation at the Mothership but as long term L.D. owners will admit that's the way it is and although many have tried to change things, including myself, it doesn't work. But there comes a point when you resolve to work with the system because you darn well can't make it suit your desires.

The reason I ask is because unsustainable business practices typically mean the company is at risk of going under. Hopefully that's not the case, but if all service questions and repairs are down to one man who's constantly over-worked then that's a recipe for disaster.

Of course, my desire is that LD lives forever as a functional business providing awesome Class C's, which is why it troubles me to hear this. I've seen it happen way too often, to good companies that everyone loved. But you're right, there's nothing we can do about it. :/