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Electrical Issue - Semi-Urgent
Greetings from Grand Teton National Park. A great place to be even though we woke up with an electrical problem this morning.

We had no 110V and the house batteries, which are new, were totally drained. The power from the pedestal is good, the external Progressive Industries EMS is showing 119V, 7A and no errors. The refrigerator was off and my reasoning is it couldn't switch to gas  because it needs 12V to create a spark to ignite the gas. The coach lights would give off a faint glow. The microwave clock was on, but my guess is it uses very little power. The See Level battery monitor is showing 10.8. Because of the chilly nights here, we run a small electric heater throughout the night.

As some of you may remember, I posted a few months ago about having a 2000W inverter improperly installed and spending over $2000 to have it corrected, so that is where my suspicions are. My theory is that even though the inverter is not on, somehow during the night, the power for the heater switched from the external 110V to the inverter 110V and drained the house batteries.  As mini-panic was trying to creep into my brain, I knew I had to do something. I checked all of the breakers and they were all on and I also turned them all off and back on. The only thing left I could think of was to start the engine which I know would charge the house batteries. As soon as I started the engine the 110V can back on and stayed on after I shut the engine off.
 
So my obvious concern is what went wrong with the power center/inverter/transfer switch stuff, of which I know very little about. Right now I can't tell if the house batteries are charging. It's been one hour since the 110V has come back on, and the See Level monitor is showing 10.7. We are in this campsite for another week, so things aren't critical yet. If today had been departure day, it would have been critical because we have Big Foot levelers and they won't retract without 12V from the house batteries. One last thing which I think doesn't matter is we have two solar panels on the roof, and our site is very shady.

I've always been very impressed with the level of electrical knowledge with this group, so I'm thanking you in advance for your replies.

Bill Moss
2019 MB and 2010 Honda Fit
Re: Electrical Issue - Semi-Urgent
Reply #1 –
I'm replying to my own post to add one more piece of information.

Ever since the inverter was installed, I've never heard the cooling fan come on in the power center.
2019 MB and 2010 Honda Fit
Re: Electrical Issue - Semi-Urgent
Reply #2 –
Bill, it sounds as if your power center's charger section is not charging your batteries. Do you have a battery monitor, such as a Victron BMV-712? If so, you should be able to see whether power is getting to the batteries. But judging by the fact that they have dropped from 10.8 V to 10.7 V in just two hours, it appears not.

Suggestions:

Run the engine as necessary to get some juice into the batteries and at least keep the fridge on. (I'm assuming that you don't have a generator, or you'd be using it. You might have to explain to rangers that it's an emergency.)

Check the 30 amp master battery breaker (see discussions elsewhere in this forum for its location; check the battery compartment and if your rig is a midbath, the compartment below the fridge. If that breaker is tripped, the batteries are cut off.

If you can stand being unlevel, retract your levelers now. If you have a towed car, drive to someplace where you can buy some leveling blocks (Walmart carries Lynx bocks), or just some pieces of 2" lumber, and use those to level the rig.

Good luck!
Andy Baird
2021 Ford Ranger towing 2019 Airstream 19CB
Previously: 1985 LD Twin/King "Gertie"; 2003 LD Midbath "Skylark"
Re: Electrical Issue - Semi-Urgent
Reply #3 –
Quote from: Andy Baird  - 
If you can stand being unlevel, retract your levelers now. If you have a towed car, drive to someplace where you can buy some leveling blocks (Walmart carries Lynx bocks), or just some pieces of 2" lumber, and use those to level the rig.
Bozeman is the closest Walmart to the greater Yellowstone region.   A couple of the auto parts in Jackson carry RV supplies.  The Target in Jackson is tiny, level blocks would be an order that takes few days.

There is a mobile RV tech in Jackson (never used them) that could come out to your site.

I’m in Yellowstone on Sunday the 10th, passing through the Tetons on my way to Alpine.   You can have my Lynx blocks if you still needs some, never used them.

Where are you off to after the Tetons?
Dave

2017 TK
Re: Electrical Issue - Semi-Urgent
Reply #4 –
Quote from: Andy Baird  - 
Bill, it sounds as if your power center's charger section is not charging your batteries. Do you have a battery monitor, such as a Victron BMV-712? If so, you should be able to see whether power is getting to the batteries. But judging by the fact that they have dropped from 10.8 V to 10.7 V in just two hours, it appears not.

I don't recall which model Victron Bill has, but I believe with our MultiPlus II, "off" is truly off - not even the charger is functioning.

Let me run out and check our coach so I can refresh my memory on the available operating modes.
Re: Electrical Issue - Semi-Urgent
Reply #5 –
OK, per our GX Touch panel, a MultiPlus II has

On - charges as needed, inverts as needed, passes shore power

Charger only - charges as needed, passes shore power

Inverter only - just inverts.  Does not pass shore power

Off - sits there like a lump doing nothing

So if it's a MultiPlus II, you would want On or Charger only in order to keep the house batteries charged.  You don't want to select "Off".
Re: Electrical Issue - Semi-Urgent
Reply #6 –
Bill, does your LD stock converter charge the batteries normally and your inverter is a stand-alone using a transfer switch? Or, do your have a pass-thru inverter/charger?

Steve
2004 FL
2013 Honda Fit
Re: Electrical Issue - Semi-Urgent
Reply #7 –
Ignore my posts about the Victron - I went back to Bill's posts and see there is a dedicated Renogy 2kW inverter plus the OEM Parallax converter/charger in his coach.

See this post of his with photos  2019 Mid-Bath Power Center Failure

Re: Electrical Issue - Semi-Urgent
Reply #8 –
Quote from: Michelle C  - 
there is a dedicated Renogy 2kW inverter plus the OEM Parallax converter/charger in his coach.
In that case, check the "converter" breaker on the converter breaker panel to see if it is tripped or failed, and check the 30A plug-in fuses on the 12V distribution board. If that is all good, then the converter 12V power supply may have failed.

Steve
2004 FL
2013 Honda Fit
Re: Electrical Issue - Semi-Urgent
Reply #9 –
Hi Bill; your situation reminded me about this thread from two years ago:  Where Hidden 12V Reset Switch 2018 Mid-Bath?
    Other people have had the 12vdc supply quit, and also not charge the batteries.   RonB
RonB (Bostick) living in San Diego
Original owner of "Bluebelle" a '99 TKB
Re: Electrical Issue - Semi-Urgent
Reply #11 –
First, I would like to thank everyone who has replied with suggestions. Since I'm not at a critical point in time yet, I'm treating this problem as a learning opportunity and not letting it frustrate me, yet.

Here's my latest status. I have 110v in the coach and everything (fridge, microwave, wall outlets) is working. The house batteries went from 10.3 to 11.3 (readings from See Level monitor) over a period of eight hours. My guess is that was the solar panels. Can someone confirm or deny that ?

My understanding is there are four ways to charge the house batteries.

1 - Being plugged into shore power, which we are. (Not working)
2 - Solar panels. (Might be working very slowly. There's lots of shade in our campsite)
3 - Generator. I haven't tried this yet due to our location in a campground. Also, I thought the generator starter motor got it's power from the house batteries, so I wouldn't be able to start it. Is that correct ?
4 - Engine alternator. I tried that briefly this morning and the problem is the Big Foot warning alarm goes on as soon as the engine starts and the alarm remains active. If that was my only alternative, I would have to go for a long walk. Can anyone confirm this would charge the house batteries ?

My idea is to go to an auto parts store tomorrow and buy a 12 volt charger and connect it to the house batteries. Does that sound feasible ? I know the batteries are two 6 volts wired in series to get 12 volts. I've seen videos that show how to connect the charger to the bare post on each battery. I also have the house battery isolation switch I could shut off while the charger is attached.

Ironically, up until this year I used to carry the plastic leveling ramps I bought at the LD mothership back in 2019 when we picked up our coach, but I left them home this year. I'll find something similar somewhere out here.

We depart from here on Sunday (8/10), so I have time to figure this out.

Bill
2019 MB and 2010 Honda Fit
Re: Electrical Issue - Semi-Urgent
Reply #12 –
The increase in charge that you saw today (from 10.3 V to 11. 3 V) was almost certainly thanks to your solar panels. There isn't anything else that would have been putting in power, aside from your brief experiment running the Ford engine. And solar panels will often generate some power even when shaded. But your solar controller should be able to tell you how many amps are coming in from the roof. What did it say?

Your engine will charge the batteries directly, so that's a possibility.

You're right about the generator starting from house battery power, so at your present state of charge that probably won't be possible. However, it's been members' experience that if the Ford engine is running and providing 12 V power, you can probably get the generator started.

A 12V charger from an auto parts store would certainly work, and although it might not charge as fast as your converter, would be better than nothing. Be very certain that you're connecting it correctly for a series pair of 6 V batteries.

Others can check me on this, but if you have the battery isolation switch that Lazy Daze installed, which is connected between the house batteries, then you definitely don't want to turn it off while charging with an external charger.
Andy Baird
2021 Ford Ranger towing 2019 Airstream 19CB
Previously: 1985 LD Twin/King "Gertie"; 2003 LD Midbath "Skylark"
Re: Electrical Issue - Semi-Urgent
Reply #13 –
No Steve, don't be mislead by the title of the thread. The reference Made there and where the next jump shows, talks about failure of the Parallax converter charge circuitry that provides 12v dc from shore power.  "situation about premature failure of the converter (charger section)  of similar aged rigs"....
     For Bill, you can disable that alarm from your levelers when the engine is started, so the noise shouldn't be a constant issue.  The engine alternator will quickly charge your house batteries, but not miraculously. Half an hour will help. During that time you can start the generator, but that won't help, it's just another form of shore power. The converter still isn't charging your batteries.  Yes, MikeH (referenced above by me)  years ago had your same problem, it was a faulty Parallax 8355.  Another person also with a newish Parallax 8355 had their converter fail, and a replacement only lasted a week. (reply#5) Parallax 8330 series battery charger/converter mystery   MikeH did buy a separate charger to keep his batteries charged and provide power to the coach 12dc.  RonB
   added: As Andy said, don't disconnect the batteries or turn off the LD switch. Attach the external charger to one post on one battery and one post on the other battery. Don't touch the posts that go to the disconnect switch. Charger Red to the + on one battery post with the most wires, Black to the - post on the other battery, ground.
RonB (Bostick) living in San Diego
Original owner of "Bluebelle" a '99 TKB
Re: Electrical Issue - Semi-Urgent
Reply #14 –
Ron,

Thank you for your reply and the solution to have the Parallax converter replaced.

Here's an odd symptom that happened this morning. When I went to bed last night at 11 PM the fridge was running on AC and the interior coach lights all worked. I got up this morning at 5 AM and the fridge was off and the coach lights were very very dim. I started the engine and the fridge came right back on and the lights were normal and everything stayed that way when I shut the engine off.

Before I buy a charger, I'm going to run the engine to see how long it takes to recharge the batteries.

Do you know how the disable the Big Foot alarm or should I call and ask the company ?

Bill
2019 MB and 2010 Honda Fit
Re: Electrical Issue - Semi-Urgent
Reply #15 –
A question that comes to mind, if the house batteries are too low to start the generator, could the generator be “jump started” similar to a car battery? If so, exactly how/where would the jump cables be attached?
Greg & Victoria
2017 Mid-Bath  “Nocona” towing a manual 2015 Forester
Previously a 1985 TK
SKP #61264
Re: Electrical Issue - Semi-Urgent
Reply #16 –
Hi Greg; The cables would be attached to the house battery terminals.  RonB
RonB (Bostick) living in San Diego
Original owner of "Bluebelle" a '99 TKB
Re: Electrical Issue - Semi-Urgent
Reply #17 –
Hi Bill, The refrigerator may be running on 110 VAC, but the logic board that controls everything it does, is dependent on 12VDC, your batteries (converter if it were working but isn't). So when the batteries die during the night, the refrigerator shuts off.
   In that earlier thread, MikeH, did buy, and successfully used a battery charger, to keep everything going until he could replace the converter.  Do your future self a favor and get a Progressive Dynamics converter instead of a Parallax replacement. I agree with Dave & Lee's RV tech that the PD is way better than Parallax: I have the 4655. Really easy to install, although I haven't done it for a 8355. 
   You may have the newer 8955 Parallax power distribution center.  Randy (I think a generic name for whoever the contact person is) at Bestconverters.com have been very helpful and can get you the right parts. Replacement Lower Converter Assembly for WFCO 8955  Until then a battery charger will keep your batteries good until you can get a repair, or a new 'other better PD' brand converter.
    I would get a Lithium battery compatible converter (I think they all are now) and I would eventually change to LiFePO4 batteries.
    Call BigFoot levelers for advice. I find blue painters tape applied over the offending noise maker can help a lot. I'll try and look online for a fix to that.   RonB
RonB (Bostick) living in San Diego
Original owner of "Bluebelle" a '99 TKB
 
Re: Electrical Issue - Semi-Urgent
Reply #18 –
Bill, Generally BigFoot powers their pump from the engine battery so running the Ford engine alternator will allow you to operate the jacks and charge the  coach batteries. I believe the Onan generator can only charge the coach batteries by powering the Parallax converter which may not be working. Yes, get a 40-amp battery charger and attach it as described by RonB above.  I agree with the others for you to replace your Parallax converter with the Progressive Dynamics 4655 model. I would turn off your inverter until the entire electrical system is back in order.
If you receive the PD4655 while on the road and are not sure how to install it you could stop by my place on your way home to Venice and I could help you with that. If there is another electrical problem we can't figure out there is a mobile RV repair service near me that could come by my shop to help. You would probably be returning home via I-75 and we are just off exit 301 (Brooksville). We have a full hookup RV pad for you to camp on. Just let me know if you can stop in.
You live next door to the Coach House RV factory where they are  currently building our next coach. We will be stopping by there on occasion to watch the build progress for the next 3 months. That will be informative and fun to see what's behind the walls of our new coach.
Mike C
You can message me for my contact #.  
2026 Coach House 27' "Casa Azul"
2010 RB "Monty"  &  2021 RB "Villa Verde"
2004 Born Free 26'
1998 Beaver Patriot 33'
1992 Barth Breakaway 28'
1982 Fleetwood Jamboree 23