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Steering / Getting pushed around by the wind
Hi LD Fam!!

This topic has been covered numerous times and I have combed the forum but want to make sure Ive got my ducks in a row.....

My 2011 TK (new to me in the fall 2023) with 54K miles - feels loose in the steering wheel - like I am movie driving - play about 10-2 on the wheel - when traveling highway speeds and its windy or tractor trailer passes. This is quite disconcerting and causes the white knuckles. No fun!!

I took it to a recommended heavy truck shop here in Lexington KY - Cliff's Truck Service

They did an all over inspection and addressed the front suspension steering issue.

Said all checked out well except the front wheel bearings and the steering stabilizer / dampener.

I had them replace the front wheel bearings, new Bilstein dampener, and an alignment.


They said it was good to go.....  I took it for a test drive at highway speeds and didn't notice much improvement. I insisted they test drive it under the conditions I was having the problem. Sure enough they were able to see what I was talking about with the play in the wheel and getting pushed around. (they did test drive it initially but only up to about 50mph - the interstate test drive takes at least an hour due to the road configuration here).

The next steps they suggest --- Replace axle bushings, replace shocks, another alignment with increased caster.

Upon reviewing the forum I cant decide if I should go with the Bilsteins or Koni so looking for recommendations. The Koni will cost me $300 for all 4 - but I want the best outcome.

I did put front and rear sway bars Roadmaster swaybars on my 2000 a few years ago when we were having similar issues but hoping to forgo the expense on this much newer rig... Wondering if it would be any benefit to do the bushings on the existing sway bars ( I am assuming these come with stock sway bars).

Please let me know if there is anything else we should be focusing on. The owner at the shop is happy for input and says the RV's all ride a little different than the other trucks they work on and he is open to suggestions.

Thanks LD Fam!!
Jodi, Kevin, and Lincoln (the crazy doodle dog)
2011 TK - also the "DogHaus"- adopted October 2023
2000 30IB - the "DogHaus" - adopted April 2020 - rehomed October 2023
Re: Steering / Getting pushed around by the wind
Reply #1 –
How many miles?

Was the shop willing to inspect the front sway bar bushings and make a recommendation?    It should take less than 5 minutes.  

Diagnosing worn out suspension parts shouldn't be hard for a reputable shop.  You might consider a second opinion?  Suspension parts on the RV wear out much faster than what you might be used to on a lighter car.

At 100k miles, my 2003 was VERY ready for front sway bar bushings, a steering damper, and shocks (4).   I replaced the rear sway bar bushings (needed) and end links (probably could have left them) too.

The shock bushings in particular had lots of play in them.   I went with 4 Koni FSD's.   I find them to be floaty at times, but would 100% buy them again. 

Larry Wade pictures (note link to a forum thread): Sway bar bushings- E450 2003 LD | Flickr

A couple of threads you should read:
KONA Shock Absorbers
Advice on Shocks

Rich


  

2003 MB
Re: Steering / Getting pushed around by the wind
Reply #2 –
Thanks Rich - edited original post to reflect 54K miles. Thought I had included that.
Jodi, Kevin, and Lincoln (the crazy doodle dog)
2011 TK - also the "DogHaus"- adopted October 2023
2000 30IB - the "DogHaus" - adopted April 2020 - rehomed October 2023
Re: Steering / Getting pushed around by the wind
Reply #3 –
Hi Jodi; Part of that handling issue could just be the Ford 'double wishbone' front end design.  Pretty much they all handle that way. Pretty 'floaty'.  Bigger and longer Ford chassis, the class 'A' F-53, have it even worse than our lower profile mini's. RonB
RonB (Bostick) living in San Diego
Original owner of "Bluebelle" a '99 TKB
Re: Steering / Getting pushed around by the wind
Reply #4 –
I’ve found that too much air pressure in the front tires causes stability issues when next to semis, or if windy.  What pressures are you running in your tires?  I’m thinking that steering components shouldn’t have to be replaced at only 54,000 miles.
Greg & Victoria
2017 Mid-Bath  “Nocona” towing a manual 2015 Forester
Previously a 1985 TK
SKP #61264
Re: Steering / Getting pushed around by the wind
Reply #5 –
Hi JodiH,

Sorry to read about the handling issues you are experiencing with your 2011 TK. I looked at your profile and while it seems you are based in Wisconsin, you are having services done in Kentucky. The reason I bring this up is because I was wondering about how familiar you are with the service facility.. A couple observations;

First off, your previous experience was with a longer and heavier Lazy Daze, a 31 foot rig. Your new rig is a considerably lighter and a shorter wheelbase 24 foot Twin King. I would expect a smaller rig to handle a bit differently than the longer and heavier rig. And to be more susceptible to being pushed by wind and truck bow waves.

Secondly, your concerns seem to be *not* about low speed driving. You are emphasizing highway speeds, windy conditions, and being pushed around by passing trucks. My experience is that windy conditions can always be a challenge and all you can do is be cautious. Getting passed by semis and buses is another one of those situations where physics are in play and you are going to feel the bow wave effect. If you are caught by surprise when they pass, it can be unsettling. My side mirrors are my early warning system.

My next question would be the condition of your tires. Are the tires old? Are your tires all the same brand and size? Any possible tire defects? I will add that having the tire pressure set correctly can make a huge difference in handling. Have you weighed your rig and adjusted tire pressure to the suggested pressures for your rig? Inflating to the maximum pressure on the front end can create some weird handling and ride conditions (I have experienced this when a tire shop over inflated my tires!)

I think worn out suspension pieces would be problematic at any speed. Putting new parts on have not addressed the issues you are concerned with so far. I have been satisfied with a Bilstein steering damper and Bilstein shocks. I replaced the original Bilsteins with new Bilsteins at 133,000 miles. Very satisfied with these on our 26.5 midbath but I recall some folks with shorter and lighter models being unhappy with the firmness/harshness of the ride.

What would I do if I was concerned about the handling of my rig? I think it may be worth finding a fellow Lazy Dazer to drive your rig to see if there is a verifiable issue or if what you are experiencing is normal Ford E450 suspension behavior. I have found that the condition of the roads (some of the interstates are in poor condition) can contribute to steering wander. Proper front end alignment is also critical.

I will add that the service people you are working with seem to have gone to great lengths by I taking your rig for an hour drive to replicate your complaint. I wish I could drive your rig to give you my assessment. Good luck!

Steve K

Steve K

2003 Mid-bath
Re: Steering / Getting pushed around by the wind
Reply #6 –
Quote from: JodiH  - 
Please let me know if there is anything else we should be focusing on. The owner at the shop is happy for input and says the RV's all ride a little different than the other trucks they work on and he is open to suggestions.

When I bought my 1998 Lazy Daze ten years ago, the mechanic who did many modifications suggested I purchase a Steer Safe Steering Stabilizer.  I have to say it's served me well, and I don't feel the "push" driving on the highway when I encounter a semi alongside my RV. 

You can watch this video Making Our New Motorhome Safer!  SteerSafe RV Stabilizer Install to learn more.

Hope this helps!
Cheryl (a.k.a. Desert Diva)
1998 Lazy Daze (26.5 mid-bath)
2002 Honda CR-V
Re: Steering / Getting pushed around by the wind
Reply #7 –
Play in the steering wheel while driving does not sound normal in this chassis. It does not sound as though they have addressed the steering box. A test: with engine OFF, Rotate the steering wheel until resistance JUST starts. Note the angle. Then with an outside observer, rotate the steering wheel in either direction until they see the first tiny motion in a front wheel. Note the angle.

The first measure is free-play in the steering box, and the second one adds freeplay of the steering linkage, etc.

Let us know what you find.

Steve
2004 FL
2013 Honda Fit
Re: Steering / Getting pushed around by the wind
Reply #8 –
Not sure what order this is all going to happen in but this is my plan...

Hi Lola - "What pressures are you running in your tires?" - Currently they are at 75 front and 80 in the rears. This was based on the installed plate at the driver's door. I found a table for the Michelin cross climates that indicates it should be less. I have not weighed this rig since I was not worried about overloading it like I was the 31IB. I am going to put that on my to do list, consult the Michelin tire inflation guide, adjust those tire pressures, and re-evaluate.

RonB - I was hoping my newer shorter LD would drive better than the big 31 foot. It really does drive nicely - feels like a big truck - except at these speeds. I think with some of these suggestions I will get it to where its comfortable. My plan is to set up my CRV to flat tow and I want to be comfortable with this single setup before adding in another factor.

SteveK - I am working in Kentucky and brought the RV down here for fun weekend trips instead of leaving it in storage in WI. So far its been great!! The shop I am going to was highly recommended by a tech I had come out to help me with a few house things. There's another LD owner in town that has had alignment work done at this shop with decent results. They've got a good rep around town with other people I work with too. 
I was hoping the shorter / smaller 24tk would have less surface area to push on so less buffet from the wind. But I suppose the lighter weight does play a factor. Watching my mirrors and anticipating the push is always a priority when I am driving. Its really a completely different experience than driving a car. Can get pretty tiring. Its just that with this amount of play I feel I could easily over-correct when the push happens. A bit disconcerting.
The tires are new-ish. Michelin Cross Climates. I don't know the specific date but I think 2022s. They seem to be in decent shape. I had Cross Climates put on my 2000 30IB too. I do have to weigh and adjust the tire pressures according to the chart.
Pretty sure I am going to have them put Koni shocks. Even if that's not the entire issue I think it will help.
Good idea about the fellow LD driver!! There is one in town I might ask to take it for a spin with me for comparison :)

DesertDiva - Thanks for the SafeTSteer suggestion. Just had them put a Bilstein stabilizer on. But another option to consider if we don't get resolution.

Steve - Thanks for suggesting the steering box evaluation. I will definitely have them check this too. And your description is very helpful!!

So here is my synopsis --

  • Weigh and adjust the tire pressures - going to try this first!!
    Inspect the steering box / Adjust if needed
    Assess the sway bar bushings - replace if needed
    4 new Koni FSD shocks (can someone confirm these are the correct item #s? - (Koni FSD 8805-1042
     and KONI 8805 1043 Rear)
    New alignment - increase caster and adjust toe in.

Thanks guys - I will report back. Keep any suggestions coming.
My next off day is next Thursday so that's when I will take it for a weight and adjust those pressures. :)





Jodi, Kevin, and Lincoln (the crazy doodle dog)
2011 TK - also the "DogHaus"- adopted October 2023
2000 30IB - the "DogHaus" - adopted April 2020 - rehomed October 2023
Re: Steering / Getting pushed around by the wind
Reply #9 –
Jodi, that sounds like a good plan.  Let us know!

I had my LD weighed at the Escapees home park in Livingston, TX and discovered the correct pressures for mine were 62-65 in the front and 75 in the rear. Setting the fronts, especially, at the lower pressures really made a difference at highway speeds.
Greg & Victoria
2017 Mid-Bath  “Nocona” towing a manual 2015 Forester
Previously a 1985 TK
SKP #61264
Re: Steering / Getting pushed around by the wind
Reply #10 –
Same tires, 68 front & 75 rear on my TK @ 13,200 lbs

Drives quite well for the past 32,000 miles on these tires (currently 41,000 miles on the rig)

Trucks will still jostle you, and crosswinds are still a pain, but manageable.
Dave

2017 TK
Re: Steering / Getting pushed around by the wind
Reply #11 –
JodiH,

This is just MY opinion; I think your tire pressures are contributing to your handling issues. 75psi in the front tires is quite a bit more than a 24 foot Lazy Daze should require. The rears at 80psi is also a bit high but not as out of line as the fronts. I realize your rig is newer than my 2003 but the Lazy Daze Owner's Manual that I received at time of delivery indicated that at time of delivery, a 23.5 foot Lazy Daze would have the front tires at 65# and the rear tires at 70#. They go on to remind owners to have their rig weighed with it loaded for travel to determine proper tire pressures.

After having our rig weighed, I run 66# in my front tires and 76# in the rears. This range has served us well. I did experience what happens when the front tires were over inflated by a service facility. They inflated all of my tires to 80# (apparently they thought the tire pressure listed as the maximum on the tire sidewall was what I should use). The ride was harsh and the steering had a strange feeling.

IF I were you, before changing shock absorbers, I would see how your rig drives with appropriate tire pressures. Your Lazy Daze Owner's Manual (hopefully you have one) may offer you some guidance for a starting place if you can't get your rig weighed. The Michelin Tire Guide will be useful. I would try changing the tire pressures first before making any other "improvements". That will help you understand your rig better in the long run.

Good luck!
Steve K
Steve K

2003 Mid-bath
Re: Steering / Getting pushed around by the wind
Reply #12 –
The tire pressure on the vehicle is probably for the heaviest use the chassis might see as with the cut aways they don't know what you are using it for. Think U-haul.  Lazy Daze comes with a chart in their book.  We end up at 66 front, 70 rear.  We need to get it weighed.

I am amazed at how the wind and trucks have almost no affect on us when driving.  Standard steering wheel damper.

Last year I replaced the 21 year old Bilstein's with Koni FSD's.  I did notice the bumps in the road are felt less. I think the old Bilstein's where stiffer, I noticed a bit more tilt when turning. Really hard to say if I would go with the Koni's or Bilstein if I had to do it again.   It would be really nice if you could just hit a switch to swap back and forth for testing.  It is really hard to judge the difference or even tell if there is a difference.  IE, you drive around for years with one type, then weeks go by and you replace them and head back on the road. To subjective. I guess if the difference was extreme you would know it.  I replaced the shocks myself.

Hope my post makes sense.
 
Steve and Jill, Steve posting
1999 26.5 Mid-Bath
Re: Steering / Getting pushed around by the wind
Reply #13 –
The steering issue was not addressed by the shop, they didn't diagnose the original problem with the extremely loose steering, They threw some parts at it and did a poor alignment that didn't cure the problem because they didn't try hard enough or didn't know how to properly diagnose the problem. Typical with many of today's mechanics.

Find a reputable frame and alignment shop, preferably one with an alignment rack equipped with a pit.
Every moving part in the front steering and suspension needs to be checked, not an extremely difficult task, it should take less than an hour for a competent mechanic in well well-equipped shop.
I can go into more detail if interested, there is a lot of parts that can go bad and a way to check each of them..

Having 120 degrees of play in the steering means that something is seriously loose and dangerous to drive, as you know. The most likey single source of this type of looseness is a bad or out of adjustment steering box.
While the E450s have a robust steering box, they do loosen and/or break occasionally. Joan Taylor's LD steering box needed work at 85,000 miles, our 2003 LD's steering with 147,000 miles is still tight.

Making any adjustments to the steering box requires removing the front grill, radiator, transmission cooler, and A/C cooler for access to the the sector bearing adjustment, the most commonly needed adjustment. The main steering shaft bearing cannot be adjusted without removing the steering box for a bench adjustment, as shown in the Factory Service Manual..
Either way, it's a lot of money and one hopes the person doing the work understands what they are doing, it isn't a common procedure and it is easy to overtighten and damage the box.
If you go this direction, it's a good time to replace the serpentine belt, tensioner and idlers, along with the radiator hoses, heater hoses and coolant. Check the water pump and fan clutch at the same time.

As others have suggested, replacing the sway bar bushings, steering stabilizer or shocks will not cure loose steering, they address other handling issues. Find the cause of the looseness before spending money on things they claim will cure the looseness.

Our LD has run Bilstein shocks since new and a Bilstein steering stabilizer for a long time without issues.
The tire pressures used by the OP will not cause looseness, they are in the normal pressure range.

Larry


Larry
2003 23.5' Front Lounge, since new.  Previously 1983 22' Front Lounge.
Tow vehicles  2020 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2001 Jeep Cherokee
Photo Collection: Lazy Daze
 
Re: Steering / Getting pushed around by the wind
Reply #14 –
Thanks Larry for this very thorough response!

I want to be safe and secure driving my RV but the trouble shooting, decisions, and expense is at times overwhelming.

Looking around for alternatives for a second opinion shop here in Lexington. It's hard for a non- mechanic like myself to assess the competency of a shop - especially when they come highly recommended by individuals more knowledgeable of these things than myself.
Jodi, Kevin, and Lincoln (the crazy doodle dog)
2011 TK - also the "DogHaus"- adopted October 2023
2000 30IB - the "DogHaus" - adopted April 2020 - rehomed October 2023