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Topic: Epilogue: P030X (& P0351) codes resolved! (Read 623 times) previous topic - next topic
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Epilogue: P030X (& P0351) codes resolved!
Resolution
Took the Lazy Daze to a Ford Truck service dealer in Buffalo (Basil Ford)  They were booked solid for a month, but squeezed us in a couple days later on Friday May 3rd, to get us back on the road.

Turns out the P0351 wasn’t a coil failure, but coil wasn’t properly locked down, and it popped off.   The mechanic also uncovered the real cause of the many many P030X misfire codes since Alaska without any corresponding loss of performance.

The crank bolt was loose, torquing it down resolved all the P030X codes.  Just that simple.  Done in three hours

The folks at Basil Ford in Buffalo are INCREDIBLE, first class customer service, knowledgeable mechanics.

Tip top shape, ready for Newfoundland!

Background
Ongoing since 24k miles (in Anchorage July 2023)for about 7k miles.   Started out with just a few generic P0300 misfires (no cylinder mentioned), then P0302 (cylinder 2), followed by P0301, PO304, P0306, P0308, P0309 code.

Currently get  P0300 or a specific cylinder P030X codes every couple miles, both before and after the plug/coil replacement.  Engine does not run rough, plenty of power, fuel efficiency is where it’s always been, drives fine.  This issue has stumped several mechanics in Alaska and a Ford dealer in Calgary.

Things done in Alaska in an attempt to address:

     Dirty air filter replaced
     Copious amounts of Seafoam to make sure it’s not bad fuel
     Replaced MAF sensor
     Replaced all plugs and coils (at 27.5k miles)

Ford dealership in Calgary had it for a week, complained that the plugs and coils used in Alaska weren’t OEM, wanted to replace them again as a first step instead of actually figuring out what was wrong.  The worst Ford dealer experience ever.

Items checked by Statkus Service Center @32k Albuquerque early April 1st:

*CHECK CODES FOR MISFIRE ISSUE. P0300, P0302, P0306, Р0309
*CHECKED FOR COMPUTER FOR UPDATES, RESET MISFIRE PROFILE AND RESET KAM.
*CHECKED POWER BALANCE & MISFIRE TEST. DID NOT DETECT ANY MISFIRES AND POWER BALANCE LOOKED GOOD.
*CHECKED FUEL TRIMS.
*CHECKED FUEL PRESSURE AND VOLUME - ALL GOOD.
*REMOVED SPARK PLUGS AND DID COMPRESSION TEST. 150# ON ALL CYLINDERS.
*CHECKED FOR EXHAUST LEAKS.
*VEHICLE NEVER RUNS ROUGH AND MISFIRES ARE NOT SHOWING UP ON COMPUTER GRAPHS.
*REPLACED ALTERNATOR AS POSSIBLE ISSUE.
*VEHICLE STILL HAS SAME 3 CYLINDERS COMING UP AS FAULTS. RANDOM & DID NOT OCCUR UNDER LOAD.

April 27th:
Engine started running rough periodically, especially after running up and down steep hills.
AC periodically would stop working as well (connected?)
Read the codes, saw a P0351.

Proceeded to disconnect fuel injector to cylinder 1, figuring if the ignition coil for cylinder 1 isn’t working, better to have a constant misfire than to have unburnt fuel in that cylinder.
Dave

2017 TK
Re: Epilogue: P030X (& P0351) codes resolved!
Reply #1 –
Thanks Dave for closing out that difficult problem. You should send something to Statkus and any other Ford dealer you care to help out, so they will know to check that feature cause if they ever see that problem again.
    As a technician I was always appreciative of finding out what the 'Real' cause of a problem was. It is always a nagging thought in the mind of a real technician over unsolved mysteries. RonB
RonB (Bostick) living in San Diego
Original owner of "Bluebelle" a '99 TKB
Re: Epilogue: P030X (& P0351) codes resolved!
Reply #3 –
Quote from: RonB  - 
Thanks Dave for closing out that difficult problem. You should send something to Statkus and any other Ford dealer you care to help out, so they will know to check that feature cause if they ever see that problem again.
    As a technician I was always appreciative of finding out what the 'Real' cause of a problem was. It is always a nagging thought in the mind of a real technician over unsolved mysteries. RonB

Already updated Statkus, they specifically were flummoxed and asked to know, the Calgary Ford dealer will be getting a piece of my mind on having it for a week and failing to do what Basil accomplished in a couple hours.
Dave

2017 TK
Re: Epilogue: P030X (& P0351) codes resolved!
Reply #4 –
Quote from: rich  - 
It looks like your chassis was part of this recall?  

https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2017/MC-10117901-9999.pdf

Fascinating, “Loose Crankshaft Pulley Bolt” certainly describes the problem.
This revelation makes the Calgary Ford’s inability to diagnose the issue even more troubling, even to the point of being negligent:

REASON FOR THIS PROGRAM
In the affected vehicles, the crankshaft pulley bolt may not have been torqued properly during engine assembly. Vehicles with a loose crankshaft pulley bolt may display a check engine light with engine misfire diagnostic codes without drivability symptoms present. If the vehicle is not serviced, engine damage may result.
SERVICE ACTION
Dealers are to loosen the crankshaft pulley bolt one full turn, then torque the bolt following the technical instructions. This service must be performed on all affected vehicles at no charge to the vehicle owner.

Others with 2017 Lazy Daze, like Greg, should have that looked into.
Dave

2017 TK
Re: Epilogue: P030X (& P0351) codes resolved!
Reply #5 –
I am really happy for you, Dave. What a pita this must have been. Now it's in the rear view mirror and nothing but blue skies ahead.
jor
09 27' MB
10  Suby Forester
Re: Epilogue: P030X (& P0351) codes resolved!
Reply #6 –
Quote from: Dave Katleman  - 
Fascinating, “Loose Crankshaft Pulley Bolt” certainly describes the problem.
This revelation makes the Calgary Ford’s inability to diagnose the issue even more troubling, even to the point of being negligent:

REASON FOR THIS PROGRAM
In the affected vehicles, the crankshaft pulley bolt may not have been torqued properly during engine assembly. Vehicles with a loose crankshaft pulley bolt may display a check engine light with engine misfire diagnostic codes without drivability symptoms present. If the vehicle is not serviced, engine damage may result.
SERVICE ACTION
Dealers are to loosen the crankshaft pulley bolt one full turn, then torque the bolt following the technical instructions. This service must be performed on all affected vehicles at no charge to the vehicle owner.

Well, a loose crank pulley, also known as a harmonic balancer, could allow the crankshaft to move too much sideways and cause the crankshaft position sensor (CPS)  to misread, leading to a CEL. It’s a strange issue, new to me that makes sense now we know the cause.
That no previous Ford dealer didn't bother to look up your LD’s VIN and any TSBs (Technical Service Bulletins) associated with it is total incompetence, even more so that Rich was able to find it with an internet search.. These jerks cost you a lot of money for their lack of ability to do the troubleshooting correctly. 

It is not surprising considering the general lack of knowledgable mechanics at every dealership I have had the misfortune of dealing with during the last decade or two. It’s a problem throughout the industry, an auto mechanic today requires deep electronic knowledge as well as advanced mechanical skills that few are willing to take the time to fully educate themselves.
Future issues might be better dealt with by utilizing independent mechanics, the dealer's costs are too high for their mechanic's lack of troubleshooting abilities.

Larry




Larry
2003 23.5' Front Lounge, since new.  Previously 1983 22' Front Lounge.
Tow vehicles  2020 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2001 Jeep Cherokee
Photo Collection: Lazy Daze
Re: Epilogue: P030X (& P0351) codes resolved!
Reply #7 –
Quote from: Larry W  - 
That no previous Ford dealer didn't bother to look up your LD’s VIN and any TSBs (Technical Service Bulletins) associated with it is total incompetence, even more so that Rich was able to find it with an internet search.. These jerks cost you a lot of money for their lack of ability to do the troubleshooting correctly. 

Future issues might be better dealt with by utilizing independent mechanics, the dealer's costs are too high for their mechanic's lack of troubleshooting abilities.
Indeed, I tend to trust independent mechanics more, though in this case, Statkus, a well respected shop, had never heard of or encountered this issue before.

Just grateful that Basil Ford in Buffalo was able to do the proper look up and resolve what should have been resolved by Ford seven years ago.
Dave

2017 TK
Re: Epilogue: P030X (& P0351) codes resolved!
Reply #8 –
Glad you finally got it resolved, Dave. Wishing you smooth sailing from here on out!

I noticed the build dates of the affected vehicles for the recall are Sept. 12, 2016 - Feb. 8, 2017.  I'm pretty sure my chassis is a late 2016.  How does one find out their build date?
Greg & Victoria
2017 Mid-Bath  “Nocona” towing a manual 2015 Forester
Previously a 1985 TK
SKP #61264
Re: Epilogue: P030X (& P0351) codes resolved!
Reply #9 –
Quote from: HiLola  - 
Glad you finally got it resolved, Dave. Wishing you smooth sailing from here on out!

I noticed the build dates of the affected vehicles for the recall are Sept. 12, 2016 - Feb. 8, 2017.  I'm pretty sure my chassis is a late 2016.  How does one find out their build date?

You can get the month and year from the door jamb sticker in the driver side.  For this issue, the chassis build date is important, not the LD build or delivery date.   For example, my December 2003 Lazy Daze has a June (I think) 2003 chassis.  

You can also call a dealer and have them run your VIN number to see if your chassis is affected.  There may also be a place to do this yourself on the ford website.  

Rich
2003 MB
Re: Epilogue: P030X (& P0351) codes resolved!
Reply #10 –
Quote from: Dave Katleman  - 
Indeed, I tend to trust independent mechanics more, though in this case, Statkus, a well-respected shop, had never heard of or encountered this issue before.

Statkus has a very spotted reputation in my view. Several years ago a close friend called from Statkus. Her LD had 120,000 miles on it with three P030X codes showing.  Statkus said her engine was damaged and wanted to change her engine at a cost of over $10,000 and a wait time of several weeks.
She said the engine ran fine except for the Check Engine Light being illuminated. I suggested that they change the three coils and check the plugs to see if that cured the issue, which it did.. Statkus wasn’t thrilled but they changed the parts anyway.
The last time I checked with her a few months ago, her LD now has over 190,000 miles on the original engine, the highest mileage LD I know of with the stock engine.
I guess Statkus was quite wrong or worse, they wanted to take her for a  financial ride.
There is a reason why many dealers are known as ‘stealerships'.
My local Jeep dealer falls into the same category.

Larry

Larry
2003 23.5' Front Lounge, since new.  Previously 1983 22' Front Lounge.
Tow vehicles  2020 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2001 Jeep Cherokee
Photo Collection: Lazy Daze
Re: Epilogue: P030X (& P0351) codes resolved!
Reply #11 –
Quote from: rich  - 
You can get the month and year from the door jamb sticker in the driver side.  For this issue, the chassis build date is important, not the LD build or delivery date.   For example, my December 2003 Lazy Daze has a June (I think) 2003 chassis.  

You can also call a dealer and have them run your VIN number to see if your chassis is affected.  There may also be a place to do this yourself on the ford website.  

Thanks, Rich.  I checked my door jamb and the build date is 9/16.  I then checked the VIN through the Ford website and it states there are no recalls for my VIN, so good to go!  Here is the link in case other owners want to check for recalls:

https://www.ford.com/support/recalls/

Greg & Victoria
2017 Mid-Bath  “Nocona” towing a manual 2015 Forester
Previously a 1985 TK
SKP #61264
Re: Epilogue: P030X (& P0351) codes resolved!
Reply #12 –
"Statkus has a very spotted reputation in my view."

In defense of Statkus! I'll be the first to admit that my dealings with Statkus was a single shot, once and done. However, they correctly diagnosed my problem as a faulty alternator, changed it out for an updated model which is still in service to this day.   ;)
Steve S.
Lazy Bones & Cedar
2004 30'IB (Island Bed)
Yesterday is History, Tomorrow is a Mystery
Live for the day!
Re: Epilogue: P030X (& P0351) codes resolved!
Reply #13 –
A quick search found the bulletin that Rich probably found.
Multiple Misfire DTCs - 2017 Ford With 6.8L Engine

The bulletin did not disclose what effect a loose harmonic balancer would cause.
Continuing to search, I found there is a keyed slotted tone ring, mounted on the crankshaft,  behind the balancer that triggers the crankshaft position sensor, a Hall Effect sensor that ‘tells’ the computer when to fire a particular spark plug.
https://www.fordpartsgiant.com/parts/ford-ring_xc3z-12a227-aa.html?vin=&make=Ford&model=E-450%20Super%20Duty&year=2017&submodel=&extra1=&extra2=&filter=(11081)

With the slop caused by the loose balancer, the pulse ring can wobble, causing false indications that the computer interpreted as a cylinder misfire. This makes sense now but isn't a common issue, the first time for me. It is not something that a mechanic would normally look for. It’s a part that should have been installed correctly when the engine was manufactured.
Too bad so many Ford dealers failed to use the Factory resources that could have solved this problem many months ago.
I’m sorry  Dave had to suffer through this.

Larry
Larry
2003 23.5' Front Lounge, since new.  Previously 1983 22' Front Lounge.
Tow vehicles  2020 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2001 Jeep Cherokee
Photo Collection: Lazy Daze
 
Re: Epilogue: P030X (& P0351) codes resolved!
Reply #14 –
Just glad the TK is humming along just fine now, can go forward into Canada for the next ten weeks.

Last night in the states, at Kring Point State Park, on the banks of the St Lawerence River, in the Thousand Islands area of northern New York.
Dave

2017 TK