Solved - electrical line - monitor panel, water heater, tv outlet

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Solved - electrical line - monitor panel, water heater, tv outlet

January 06, 2023, 04:48:25 pm

We were testing our new multimeter out on the tv dc12 outlet (just cause it was close) and must have touched something wrong.
Voltage dropped to 0.
Now that dc12 outlet (TV one), the monitor panel (except for water pump) and the water heater are out (maybe the water heater is not working because the switch in panel is not working).

All other dc12 works fine.

The fuse in the fuse panel for that circuit (tv outlet, monitor panel, water heater) works fine (tested with multimeter and swapped with a working light fuse to double check).
The fuse on the water heater circuit board tested fine with the multimeter.

We pulled out the monitor board and didn’t find any fuses in there.

We disconnected the red (power) and white (ground) wires from the tv 12v adapter just in case that outlet went bad.

Are we missing a fuse somewhere?

Jane & Scott

P.S. We searched in the forum but didn’t find any info about other fuses, but we found good info in post Short circuit.

Re: Need help - monitor panel, water heater, tv outlet out - hidden fuse??

Reply #1 – January 06, 2023, 05:13:59 pm

Update:
Nothing solved yet but we took the monitor panel out off and determined the power came from inside the cabinet to the water heater switch first before the rest of the switches (not including pump switch which is on another line).

A continuity test on the wires coming into the water heater switch was good - but no voltage showing for those wires.

Off to check the water heater next.

Re: Need help - monitor panel, water heater, tv outlet out - hidden fuse??

Reply #2 – January 06, 2023, 07:20:31 pm

No electricity going into the water heater. Continuity test failed.

Found this diagram in the LD manual (original manual for this LD).

It shows there is one wire from the power center the water heater and a second wire that goes to the monitor panel (and from there onto the TV dc12 outlet). I don’t know if this is accurate… or if anyone has verified it in their LD.

Re: Need help - monitor panel, water heater, tv outlet out - hidden fuse??

Reply #3 – January 07, 2023, 05:30:27 am

Hi Jane and Scott. I'm not sure which power center you have. The 12 vdc circuits in section D, go out to wires 'P', 'Q', and 'R'. I'd check one of those fuses first. The fact that you do have 12v. in some circuits means that the large circuit breaker, if LD put in one going to the battery box, is ok. (or isn't there at all). RonB

Re: Need help - monitor panel, water heater, tv outlet out - hidden fuse??

Reply #4 – January 07, 2023, 12:55:29 pm

Quote from: RonB - January 07, 2023, 05:30:27 am

Hi Jane and Scott. I'm not sure which power center you have. The 12 vdc circuits in section D, go out to wires 'P', 'Q', and 'R'. I'd check one of those fuses first. The fact that you do have 12v. in some circuits means that the large circuit breaker, if LD put in one going to the battery box, is ok. (or isn't there at all). RonB

We have a new power center put in 2017 but wired basically the same.

All the fuses work in the power center (that was the first place we checked).
Tested by turning things on and the one where things didn’t work were the water heater and the dc12 tv outlet. After searching this forum and finding the linked discussion (link above) we realized none of the monitor switches were working (except the pump which uses different wires).

In addition to the testing on that one circuit (hot water heater, tv dc12 plug, and monitor panel) stated above, we also did a continuity test on the panel at the fuse for that circuit not working (eg space the fuse goes in) and that passed.

Re: Need help - monitor panel, water heater, tv outlet out - hidden fuse??

Reply #5 – January 08, 2023, 06:56:18 am

The wiring diagram says the "S" wire, which powers the monitor panel connects directly to the house battery's, could it have an additional fuse in it?

Jon

Re: Need help - monitor panel, water heater, tv outlet out - hidden fuse??

Reply #6 – January 08, 2023, 07:23:51 am

@JonS When we opened up the monitor panel we throughly looked behind it, we saw no additional fuses there. We can clearly see all
around up to the point the wire bundle disappears Inside the cabinet so I feel nothing is there.

Tomorrow we look behind the power center panel and see if there are any extra fuses there.
Our power center is inside the empty cabinet at the entry door (below the window), with lots of empty space inside the cabinet Annan access door. So while a bunch of stuff is in there it is pretty easy to poke around and see everything
And nicely the water heater is close by under the wardrobe right next to that cabinet so we can trace wires all the way to the water heater and confirm the wire from the fuse splits (one branch going to the water heater and a second one going to the monitor panel).

I don’t remember seeing any extra fuses when the impt in the power center but there is a lot going on in that area and the original power center was Immediately replaced with an upgrade when the LD was purchased, so there could be something unusual in that area.

I should take some pictures of the panel wiring (if I can get clear ones) and mark it up with tracing.. so you all can confirm my tracing and document it for others.

I am having Scott confirm my tracing but more eyes doesn’t hurt and could be useful to someone else.

Jane

Re: Need help - monitor panel, water heater, tv outlet out - hidden fuse??

Reply #7 – January 08, 2023, 02:28:07 pm

"The wiring diagram says the 'S' wire, which powers the monitor panel connects directly to the house battery's, could it have an additional fuse in it?"

It had better! Anything coming off the batteries' positive end should have a fuse or breaker within a few inches (ABYC standard is nine inches maximum, I believe) to protect the wire downstream of the batteries. Otherwise, a short anywhere in that wire could cause a fire, and a fire inside a wall or cabinet is not something you want.

Re: Need help - monitor panel, water heater, tv outlet out - hidden fuse??

Reply #8 – January 08, 2023, 03:08:58 pm

Quote from: Andy Baird - January 08, 2023, 02:28:07 pm

It had better! Anything coming off the batteries' positive end should have a fuse or breaker within a few inches (ABYC standard is nine inches maximum, I believe) to protect the wire downstream of the batteries.

Andy, all fhree of those items come off the one fuse in the electric panel. The question is if they just daisy chain one offer the other or if there is a branch in the circuit (splits one side going to water heater and other to the monitor panel) and if there is any extra inline fuses that were added.
Taking the power center apart to see the wiring off the one fuse for those 3 compnents and tracing as far as I can (visually and touch - all electricity off of course)! Is this afternoons task.

Re: Need help - monitor panel, water heater, tv outlet out - hidden fuse??

Reply #9 – January 09, 2023, 12:31:01 am

Opened things up today - no unexpected fuses. Nothing unexpected (no blacked spots or loose wires).

Wire bundles just disappear into the floor so from power panel into a wire bundle that goes along the lower front edge of the cabinet and then disappears in the floor.
We could see the wires from the water heater coming from the side closest to the outside of LD, going over the top of the water heater, and looked like they disappeared into the floor.

Wires from the monitor center come from a bundle that drops down from the ceiling - one wire with power goes to the water pump, another wire with power goes into the water heater switch then daisy chains to the other switches.
I took pictures and will mark them up and post here.

Reread the water heater manual and the wires show going from the battery to the switch and then to the water heater (the same 3 color wires seen at the water heater) - nothing to the water heater directly from the battery.

There was no visible branch off the wire providing power to the water heater switch (and other switches) going anywhere (like to the tv 12v outlet). That branch must happen in the ceiling, floor, or wall.

I am suspicious whatever happened caused the switch to go bad.
But tomorrow I plan to put a fuse in an unused spot in the power center and run that wire over to the water heater switch and connect it to the power blade and see things work. I can try it out on other switches in the monitor panel also and even swap out the water heater switch.

Re: Need help - monitor panel, water heater, tv outlet out - hidden fuse??

Reply #10 – January 09, 2023, 07:55:55 am

Jane and Scott,

You folks probably have far more knowledge about RV wiring than I do, so take this with a grain of salt.

IF I had this problem, before digging deeper into rewiring, I think I would replace the outlet where you shorted out the system. I think you mentioned the TV 12 volt outlet was where this began? Perhaps the way that wiring is run, the short is preventing power from continuing to the other items on that branch?

This seems a lot easier than taking more things apart. But this is from a guy who has created more problems with my "repairs"😄

Steve K

Re: Need help - monitor panel, water heater, tv outlet out - hidden fuse??

Reply #11 – January 09, 2023, 02:25:30 pm

"Andy, all three of those items come off the one fuse in the electric panel."

Thanks for clarifying. It was the phrase 'connects directly to the house batterys' that raised a red flag with me, but obviously I took it too literally.

Re: Need help - monitor panel, water heater, tv outlet out - hidden fuse??

Reply #12 – January 09, 2023, 03:11:59 pm

Quote from: Steve K. - January 09, 2023, 07:55:55 am

IF I had this problem, before digging deeper into rewiring, I think I would replace the outlet where you shorted out the system. I think you mentioned the TV 12 volt outlet was where this began? Perhaps the way that wiring is run, the short is preventing power from continuing to the other items on that branch?

This seems a lot easier than taking more things apart. But this is from a guy who has created more problems with my "repairs"😄

Steve K

Steve, I agree and the first thing we did was
take that off the line (still off) but it didn’t magically fix things. It seems whatever happened affected more then just that outlet.

Having nothing at the end of that circuit should not affect anything (if wires are capped off or not touching things (right now hanging free). We don’t use the cables but we have a 3 cigarette lighter 12v outlet very close by so don’t need another one there - we were considering putting in a blank plate and letting the next owner know about it if they wanted the cables (I am not sure how many buyers
But we are running errands and stopping by for another switch (not sure I have a working spare) so we will see if the rv supply has one there.

Re: Need help - monitor panel, water heater, tv outlet out - hidden fuse??

Reply #13 – January 09, 2023, 04:27:55 pm

Do you have 12 volts on the hot side of the fuse for the information panel? Could it be that one of the 2 fuses that protect the distribution board has blown. In the center on the top of the board.

Jon

Re: Need help - monitor panel, water heater, tv outlet out - hidden fuse??

Reply #14 – January 09, 2023, 09:12:52 pm

Jon, while it was not obvious that could be causing the problem (based on my understanding of what progressive told me about it when we bought and installed the power center in 2017), but we did test those ones (multimeter) yesterday - just in case. They were all good.
We didn’t do any further work today but will tomorrow.

Re: Need help - monitor panel, water heater, tv outlet out - hidden fuse??

Reply #15 – January 10, 2023, 01:33:15 pm

Hi Jane; Well I started reviewing your comments over again from the start, 4 days ago. When you pull fuses out of the fuse board at your power center, you should check both terminals where the fuse was. Inside the fuse you can see the fusible link. A momentary short will cause a blackened spot. One terminal on the fuse board will be +12 volts, and the other should not have any voltage. From that terminal do a continuity test. (Use an additional long wire for this trouble shooting to extend your test lead. It can be very thin, 20 gauge..) From that fuse terminal with fuse removed to the item(s) powered by that fuse. Lets take for example the water heater switch. Test where the power lead comes in, with the switch off. If it tests good (shorted as in connected) back to the power center fuse board, then if there were hidden fuses somewhere else along that line, it (or they) are ok. In a direct short like you experienced, a poor butt splice or bad connection, or even a wire that had been bent back and forth over the years could have burnt open even inside the wire insulation, and might not be visible on the outside. You need to check the integrity of every wire, fuse, switch and connection. I have seen switches where the inside contact has been vaporized from a momentary short. RV 12v switches aren't the most robust usually. Lowest bidder type of thing. In an older motorhome like we have, you need to suspect more failures of age, wear, and "that was the last straw" type of failures. Hope this helps. RonB

Re: Need help - monitor panel, water heater, tv outlet out - hidden fuse??

Reply #16 – January 11, 2023, 11:36:39 pm

Ok, we did some testing today. Confirmed everything 3 times 😄.

1) power center is fine
a. Tested pulling 12v through a new wire that went from a new location in the power center using a new fuse - worked.
b. Tested pulling 12v through that new wire that went from the old location in the power center with the old fuse - worked.
Note: touched / connected the new wire directly to the wire from the switch that sent power to the water heater.
2) Switch was bad, a new one worked.
3) wiring in the LD between the power
Center and monitor panel is bad - ugh those
two locations are across the LD from each other and my first choice is to run a new line.

We could use the existing raceways but that means making bigger holes to fish a wire across the ceiling and inside walls.

We could connect the monitor panel (switches and hot water heater) to our rear lights circuit (includes one fantastic fan and 9 12v outlets - no we don’t use them all at the same time). Even when charging/using a handful of our more energy hog items we have never gotten above 6 amps, the water heater uses about 1 amp, and it is a 20 amp line.

4) We did find the wires going between the monitor panel and tv dc12 outlet - in the bundle coming from the ceiling where they first butt spliced to wires (before the white wire harness connectors) there were 2 red wires butt spliced to a 3rd wire which continued down to the white wire harness connectors. We did continuity testing and found the one that went to the rv dc12 outlet.

We think there is only wire (though there could be some butt splices /wiring harnesses) between the two spots we tested. I could sort of see and definitely touch the hot (12v coming in) wire at the monitor panel until it disappeared where it came out of the ceiling (through a small hole).
On the power center we could see the bundle of wires head back towards the wardrobe and some went up towards the ceiling at that point (likely the front light circuit and the air
Conditioner circuit). Some went further to the rear I bet to go up the refrigerator wall to reach the monitor panel, back light circuit, pump, furnace, and refrigerator.

I don’t know why that wire doesn’t work.
We used the water heater and monitor panel the day before we shorted (or whatever) the 12v tv outlet. No signs of stress to any wires or connections (not black spots or frayed or …).
No reports / signs of wire eating critters where we are right now. As Ron said things can get old but it all looks very robust.

Now we know the issue we can do a temporary workaround and then a permanent fix.
And we might do a little exploring to see if there is anything other than just wire before the wire from the power center heads up a wall into the ceiling.

I will post some marked up pictures soon, normally I just too busy but since this is not usually something people dig into I will
make an effort to do so in the next week.

Jane

Re: Solved - electrical line - monitor panel, water heater, tv outlet

Reply #17 – January 12, 2023, 02:54:22 am

Hi Jane. Good that you are getting close. If your TK is arranged the same as mine, there is a under floor channel between the power center and under the kitchen counter where the cold going to the water heater, and hot coming back to the sink, bathroom sink, and shower. I ran quite a few more wire there. Pulling out the kitchen drawer stack of three will allow you to see the water pipes, and some wires there. Also there is a copper gas tube running under the (inside really) floor. LD put a clamp halfway across, but I still managed to put some wires across the aisle. RonB

Re: Solved - electrical line - monitor panel, water heater, tv outlet

Reply #18 – January 12, 2023, 08:40:37 am

Ron, thanks I will look there - I remember pipes running along that area and it is much more accessible (bigger holes transitioning into the floor).
I really, really dislike when I see water pipes and wires run in the same spaces and have heard horror stories from SOB owners like when I run my water all my electricity went out (repeatedly) but maybe with some weatherproof conduit…
Jane

Re: Solved - electrical line - monitor panel, water heater, tv outlet

Reply #19 – January 12, 2023, 02:01:20 pm

Hi Jane; Those under floor channels aren't big enough for conduit. Good wire with good insulation, no splices or joints. Many of mine are for signals and relay control, so 18 gauge. If you have water leaks inside the floor, you've got more problems than electrical !! RonB

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