Hi Everyone! I have been on the hunt to purchase my first Lazy Daze (first RV too!) and after lots of research, I am still finding myself torn between vintage features I love or sacrificing those for more practical updates.
Specifically, I have been looking at a used 1989 23.5’ Multi-Plan layout (with the rear bathroom and corner couch/bed). This year specifically appeals to me because it was after they got rid of the carburetor and switched over to throttle body injection and 4-speed auto transmission (compared to 3-speed in 1988). The 23.5’ model is also on the Ford E350 chassis instead of the Chevy chassis. 1989 was also the last year they had the overcab front window. I know they were removed because they were prone to leaks, but I REALLY love the light and view the front window allows and I hate the look of the “fake” window in the subsequent years. The multi-plan layout appeals to me when I would be traveling alone, but I could see it feeling crammed when traveling with my partner. I also really love that the captains chairs swivel around in this model adding extra seating to lounge in.
The other model I have been considering is the 26.5’ Mid Bath 1997 or later. Theirs layout seems to be a popular choice that I keep coming back to. I like the large lounge area in the back with the view and I like that the sleeping areas are separated for privacy. The kitchen area does seem a bit crammed up with the cab, but I appreciate the extra counter space and the expanding booth seat. The Rear Kitchen layout also appeals to me, but I’ve read that having the weight of all the major appliances past the rear axle does not distribute the weigh as evenly as the MB layout. I’ve also read about dislike for & issues with the raised toilets over the wheel frame and how the mid-area between “rooms” can feel “pinched”. The 1997+ years are built on the Ford E450 chassis and V10 engine, as well as electronic fuel injection. I like that in 2000 they added the extra space for the driver seat (my partner is over 6’) so I have been looking at that year too.
My big questions are:
1. I am not very handy when it comes to mechanics, but I am a fast learner, determined, and stubborn. How much more work is required with older vehicles vs newer ones? Is the simplicity of the older systems better than more complications with the electronic systems? Which will last longer AND be more reliable?
2. How much more do you value the extra 3ft of space in a 26.5’ vs a 23.5’? I like the convenience of a smaller vehicle for easier parking, and driving/handling, but would think the weight and gas mileages would also be factors, no? I don’t plan to be towing a vehicle so as far as the engines and chassis go, I just want to know that they can handle the RV and what’s loaded inside. Obviously, a big concern is going uphill in mountainous areas. I plan to do a lot of driving/road tripping and camping at national parks.
As you can see, I have been doing a lot of READING on everything but this will only get me so far. I live in New Orleans so LDs are hard to come by down here and I am not near any Lazy Daze GTGs (that I know of) to go and walk thru others’ layouts and get a feel for what is right for me. Any and all feedback about your experiences with these models and/or features is very much appreciated. Thanks for taking the time to read this.
I understand the cozy nostalgic feel of the old MP. However, the sad facts is the cabover window in not prone to leak, the leaks are inevitable, usually not noticed until structural damage is extensive. Generally, once damage has occurred over years, it is easy to poke around up there and check for soft walls, etc.
Steve
p.s. edited after I had mis-read the original post - sorry!
My quick two cents:
1) If you can, get something on the Ford E-450 Chassis
2) Regarding length, you'll get use to driving/parking so use the layout as your determining factor
3) Good luck!
Bill
Gabi, congratulations on doing your homework. With older rigs, that's essential. About your questions:
1: "Is the simplicity of the older systems better than more complications with the electronic systems?"
In my opinion, no. The electrical systems in the coach portions of the two rigs you're considering are pretty similar. The electrical systems of the Ford chassis are more sophisticated, but that's all to the good. And if there are any problems with the engine and drivetrain, you'll want to take the vehicle to a mechanic (in either case).
"I’ve also read... how the mid-area between 'rooms' can feel 'pinched'."
Some people feel that way; some don't. (I didn't.) I will say that the midbath layout can be advantageous if you and your partner are on different sleep schedules, or just occasionally need time to be apart. Having two semi-separate rooms is a big benefit there. On the other hand, if you like to do a lot of entertaining, the "one big room" layout of the rear kitchen or rear bath models can be more suitable. You won't really know until you and your partner get inside one of these RVs and wander around a bit. Most LD owners are happy to show off their rigs, so if you post your general area, maybe somebody will volunteer.
2. "How much more do you value the extra 3ft of space in a 26.5’ vs a 23.5’?"
I've owned a 1985 22' Twin/King and a 2003 26.5' Midbath, and the larger coach's extra space makes a BIG difference in livability, even with just one person. With two, that's even more true.
In addition, I'll echo what Steve and Bill said: 1) The overcab window will leak (Larry Wade, who has worked on dozens of Lazy Dazes, can attest to that), and making structural repairs to rotted wood in the overcab is agonizingly hard work. 2. The E450 is a much better engine. If you're worried about climbing hills, it'll do a better job. Understand that you won't be sailing up hills at 70 mph in any motorhome. RVing is best lived in the slow lane. But the V10 will get you there, where the V8 is more likely to struggle.
Good luck!
I like the large lounge area in the back with the view
That is the reason we bought an LD. Can't beat it.
jor
I own a 2017 TK (23.5’) so my opinions are obviously biased.
Researched for 12+ years on this forum (had time since retirement was far off). I LOVE the layout and space of the mid bath, strongly considered one over the years. Both models, TK & MB, share those amazing rear windows, which I fell in love with while camped next to one in Yellowstone 19 years ago.
What always brought me back to the twin king was
Pros::
Length: I had rented 24’ RVs throughout those years, quickly learned that 24’ or less got you into far more national park campgrounds, including many of my favorite campgrounds. You can more or less fit in regular parking spaces, parallel parking in spots longer RVs would only dream of. Maneuverability.
Power: E450 on a 24’ RV gives you more power than you’ll ever need, mountains aren’t any issue.
Driver space: The E450 rentals I drove were cramped, did not enjoy driving them. Each had something directly behind the driver that inhibited reclining. So does the MB & TK, but Laze Daze added a panel cutout & spring on the TK that allows you to recline the driver’s seat slightly into the bathroom. Genius! Far more comfortable for my 6’1” body.
Cons::
Space: those three extra feet make a big difference, cannot lie, when I have a guest it would be nice. When it’s just my wife & I, I leave the back made up as a king bed. When it’s one of my kids, the overhead cab is used as sleeping.
Black/Gray valve location: The only flaw I have with a TK is how low the Black/Gray tank valves are compared to any other Lazy Daze, like stupidly low. If I see a large bump or pothole coming, I now instinctively steer to have my right side take it on. Hasn’t kept me from driving mountainous gravel roads that others here would avoid.
I’ve driven my 2017 TK 50,000 miles since purchasing it in 2022, and absolutely love it. I do not tow, and do not anticipate needing to. Gas mileage is surprisingly similar between the TK & MB. They are built on the same chassis, so have the same max weight. Both are basically boxes on wheels aerodynamically, so you’ll only get above 10mpg downhill with a tailwind.
Essential TK modifications in my opinion:
* Install a swivel pedestal on the passenger seat, you need that extra chair in a TK.
* Build yourself a pantry in the empty space between the bathroom and kitchen, nicknamed an Andy Baird pantry, you need the extra space for food storage.
New Orleans is a difficult place to go see a Lazy Daze, you will have to travel a bit, which I highly recommend if you are serious about buying a Lazy Daze. For two years before I bought, I drove four hours to the annual Morro Bay GTG, was invaluable to see the different models in person. Friendly folks.
Hi Gabicats: The Ford E350 a 99 with the V10 that I have, has plenty of power. The 6" narrower chassis (8' vs. 8 1/2') makes very little difference, but is different. The 11,500# GVWR keeps you honest about weight, but the storage compared to a MidBath (much more storage) helps keep the weight down.
As Jor stated, the windows in the back make the Lazy Daze unique. I turned down a 24' Born Free, at very low cost, from my parents because of the nearly non existent windows of their floor plan.
Dave has his T/K on the E450 platform. The hydraulic brake assist vs. vacuum assist on the E350 is one thing I wish that I had. The E350 Ford chassis can tow quite a bit of weight, but an auxiliary brake system is mandatory. If you plan on towing anything over about 2,000#, get the E450!
If you, or two of you, plan on sleeping in the cabover, you'll find that you can easily whack the window with an elbow or knee. That large an expanse of glass will be too cold in cool (not cold) weather, and too hot in even just warm weather. Unless you are really short, you still won't be able to see out of that window. On my prior (non LD) motorhome I cut a large piece of stiff foam 1-1/2" thick polyisocyanate foil backed and put aluminum struts (1" strap) at every screw interval along the window for support. I spray painted almond and white on the front facing side to look like drapes. I never missed the window. I didn't mention the noise level. The thin flat glass cabover window was essentially useless for noise isolation. The Lazy daze molded nose cone is about 8" thick in the center, and is much better at temperature extremes and noisy (nearby highways) sound mitigation.
A friend with an Itasca class 'C' encountered a rock fall, pebble sized at 65 mph (Yosemite area) and had the cabover window explode into the entire 27' living area. He was picking glass out of the back wall, and inside walls for years!
His opinion was that anyone riding in the back, not in the front seats would have been severely injured, possibly killed! That's when I put in my foam buffer piece. I also remember kids and parents who couldn't understand why I wouldn't let kids (or anyone) ride in the cabover space. A small accident has launched many unrestrained children and objects into 'outer space'. The framing in my cabover and plastic one piece nosecone, will contain my cats and (light) objects stored up there.
The T/K can be fitted with a rotating passenger seat, (on my list in the next week or so). I've made and un-made the rear bed well over a thousand times, and it has held up well. (a few mods to quicken the process). Worth the effort, and many times as Dave mentioned, the length made the difference getting or not getting a space. RonB
So Dave, do you have a combined black and gray tank combo drain? My separated valves don't hang down low at all!, Essentially two dumps, but not too far from each other as long as the drain hose isn't too short. RonB
So Dave, do you have a combined black and gray tank combo drain? My separated valves don't hang down low at all!, Essentially two dumps, but not too far from each other as long as the drain hose isn't too short. RonB
Yep, haven’t messed it up yet, but I feel it’s just inevitable. Considered raising the whole RV a couple inches but I’m over that.
You can just install separate gate valves. (this belongs in a separate thread) RB
All pre-19901 LDs have the front window that will leak eventually. It is very hard to keep the multi-piece front cap from leaking, it has too many seams that were not well sealed when built.
I had to extensively reseal our 1983 LD's front cap seams, and I also removed the window to better seal it. It already had signs of leakage at 12 years of age.
Almost every pre-1991 LD I have inspected had visible leakage in the front windows and corners of the bunk. It was a bad design, avoid at all costs unless you enjoy rebuilding a rotted front bunk area; it's nasty work. Any found rot will be more extensive than what is visible at the surface.
I would never recommend buying anything this old. If old is what you want, buy a 1991 or newer. 1991 was a good year for the Chevy chassis. Besides the new one-piece cap, the engine block was upgraded, and it received electronic fuel injection and the durable 4L80E overdrive transmission. All good things.
A few Chevys had an optional 454 Big-Block V8, I have little experience with them but know owners who pulled small cars and/or boats with them. The same 1991 recomendations go for this engine too.
Moving to the V10s, i would avoid any before 2004. The earlier engines had issues with spark plugs blowing out unless a $2000+ preventage installation of spark plug inserts are installed. A blown plug may destroy the engine, BTDT.
2008 saw an upgraded chassis and larger brakes. My is my recommendation, or a later year, if you plan on towing something heavy.
BTW, any of the Chevys with the 350 V8 are not suitable for towing anything but light trailers, IMO.
Any older LD is going to probleably need work and most need a lot of work to get into traveling shape. Repairs, when you can find mechanics will to work on RVs is very expensive, $200 an hour is not uncomon and the parts are much more expensive than car parts, not to mention weigh alot more. RV needs more maintenance than cars.
Whatever you buy, have a large stack of extra cash for all the unexpected costs that will arise.
Understand the simple fact that RVing is not a cheap lifestyle. It can be worth it, and it also can be a nightmare.
Happy hunting
Larry
So Dave, do you have a combined black and gray tank combo drain? My separated valves don't hang down low at all!, Essentially two dumps, but not too far from each other as long as the drain hose isn't too short. RonB
In 2010, LD increased the size of the T/K's holding tanks and went to the single outlet..
At a March event 15 years ago, Joan Taylor had me come look at a new Twin/King with larger tanks. She was concerned with how low the dump valves were compared to her 2003 T/K and wondered if they were likely to be torn off.
I'm sure it has happened, but I haven't heard from anyone that did. Going back to dual-outlets may be a way to increase the clearance.
Larry
Thanks everyone for the responses! This has all been super helpful. Y’all have convinced me against the front cab over window. Definitely don’t want to deal with any water damage (if I can avoid it at all costs) and didn’t think about insulation so that was also a good point brought up. Also good to know I can install a swivel for the passenger seat. I had explored this ideas but seems like it would be impossible with some models, like the MB with the fridge and booth seats up against the cab. I like the front lounge layouts a little more for this purpose.
Feeling more confident in the chassis/engine department as well with all the detailed information given on years and models. I did read about the spark plug issue with the V10 so definitely keeping that in mind if going with anything older than ‘04. Looks like I would be okay with the Ford E350 V8 since I don’t plan on towing anything.
Welcome to the FOLD (Fraternal Order of Lazy Daze), and an introduction to what you can expect from this forum.
I think it's more of an attitude and mindset than what is on the registration papers. Some in the group have Some Other Brands (SOBs) without problem, but most have had or plan to get one.
Welcome.
I have a 2001 23.5 TK with a V10 engine. Yes it does slow down going up the higher Colorado mountain passes, to like 45 mph. This never bothered me as I am in no rush. I recently looked to buy a 2018 TK, and decided against. Compared to the newer models, there seems to be more room in the cab for your legs and moving in and out to the back. I like how the bathroom is bigger, there is a nice medicine cabinet and there is no hole to accommodate the driver’s seat, and the bathroom door is solid wood rather than accordion, which can be used to divide the bathroom front from the lounge/kitchen giving you a nice insulated space. I am older and less mobile so I definitely prefer the positioning of the dump valves. I believe there is more outside storage in the older Ford models as well. I did buy a newer mid bath some years ago but sold it back as I missed how nimble my 23.5 is, but I am a solo female traveler and want to go, see, do, so the choice of rig depends on your goals. I have not had any spark plug issues in the 13 years I have owned it.
Moving to the V10s, i would avoid any before 2004. The earlier engines had issues with spark plugs blowing out unless a $2000+ preventage installation of spark plug inserts are installed. A blown plug may destroy the engine, BTDT.
.
Happy hunting
Larry
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I thought the spark plug issue was pre 2002 v10
I thought the spark plug issue was pre 2002 v10
The 'fix' started to appear in 2003.
There were lots of these engines produced. The spark plug issue is real, but it was never frequent enough that Ford issued a recall. My guess is that a single digit percentage of the affected engines have problems. Most of the vehicles with the pre-fix engines are no longer on the road (they are old and in junkyards now).
Rich
To Boca and Rich; Most of those engines for vans and trucks may be long gone, but are still alive in many motorhomes both from Lazy Daze and other class 'C' motorhomes. I've considered getting the fix. One of the Blownoutsparkplug.com Ford Spark Plug Thread Repair (http://www.blownoutsparkplug.com/) persons: Ric Mahlmeister operates here just down the road from me, off of Main and Taft in El Cajon. (maybe 30 miles)
And I concur with AlphPup that the large bathroom door does close off the bathroom area, (really have to cover up those front windows though). I don't need the relief area in the bathroom wall for the driver seat, which I don't have. Also, I replaced the medicine cabinet, just weeks after purchase, with a better one from Home Depot. (I lined up the screw holes to match the factory OEM to take advantage of the inside the wall support structure).
It is my understanding that the bathroom still has the smaller solid door, hinged on the right, and that the accordion door was just to close off the aisle to the back. RonB
edit, repaired my above link, no 's' after ...plug RB
To Boca and Rich; Most of those engines for vans and trucks may be long gone, but are still alive in many motorhomes both from Lazy Daze and other class 'C' motorhomes.
For sure, and I wasn't very clear about my point here. Since most of the original problematic V10's are off the road, the % of engines with problems (my estimate is a very low percentage) isn't likely to increase much.
Compare that to say, the current Toyota twin turbo truck engines which tend to blow up. There are a small % affected now, but that proportion is going up as people put miles on them.
I didn't mean that used RV shoppers are unlikely to encounter an engine from that era. That's clearly not the case judging from the classifieds here.
Rich
I believe Ford revised the torque specs for the spark plugs. Something to consider if you have an early v10 and are concerned, but not quite enough to spend $2K on a possibly unnecessary fix from somebody like https://blownsparkplugs.com.
And I concur with the advice about the swivel passenger seat and pantry for any TK!
Steve
Our 1998 MB has the ford engine with the known issue. We have re-torqued the spark plugs to the new specification regulary at about 15-20K miles. Our engine is at 155K now. We have also considered Blown sparkplugs as an option but that would require us to include it in trip to the San Diego area where they have had good success. Here in the PNW the reviews are mixed at best.
Karen~Liam
98 ~ MB
NinA