This past weekend we were at an RV park a few hours from home and we had the unnerving experience of smelling something electrical burning and it was the Parallax power center. This was our second trip since having an inverter installed a few months ago and the first time since then of extended use of the air conditioner. I'll be contacting the shop today that installed the inverter and I was wondering if there could be any relationship between the inverter installation and the power center failure.
A few questions:
If the cooling fan in the power center stops working, could that have caused the problem ?
If we hadn't been in the coach to smell the problem, could this have resulted in a fire ?
Is there a better power center replacement for the Parallax 8300 ?
This past weekend we were at an RV park a few hours from home and we had the unnerving experience of smelling something electrical burning and it was the Parallax power center. This was our second trip since having an inverter installed a few months ago and the first time since then of extended use of the air conditioner.
If the cooling fan in the power center stops working, could that have caused the problem ?
If we hadn't been in the coach to smell the problem, could this have resulted in a fire ?
Is there a better power center replacement for the Parallax 8300 ?
Odds are that one of the wires inside the Power Center’s 120-VAC side loosened and burned. This is a common problem, especially with long-term A/C use. The damage usually can be repaired without replacing the Power Center
We have advised for many years to periodically check all the wires inside the Power Center for tightness and loose connections. Make sure to disconnect all power, both 12-volt and 120-volt, before beginning this project.
Larry
This past weekend we were at an RV park a few hours from home and we had the unnerving experience of smelling something electrical burning and it was the Parallax power center. This was our second trip since having an inverter installed a few months ago and the first time since then of extended use of the air conditioner.
If the cooling fan in the power center stops working, could that have caused the problem ?
If we hadn't been in the coach to smell the problem, could this have resulted in a fire ?
Is there a better power center replacement for the Parallax 8300 ?
Odds are one or more of the wires inside the Power Center’s 120-VAC side loosened and burned; it is a common problem, especially with long-term A/C use. The damage usually can be repaired without replacing the Power Center.
I doubt if the new inverter had anything to do with this issue.
Larry
Had this happen with our converter. Removing the two screws holding the plate securing the breakers will reveal the problem and damage...
Steve
Is there a better power center replacement for the Parallax 8300 ?
If you do decide to replace the Parallax, this is a good replacement. It is lithium battery compatible.
4600 Series Upgrade or Replacement Power Converters (https://www.progressivedyn.com/inteli-power-4600-series/)
Hi Greg; While that is a good converter, it really is just the 12 VDC supply for the coach and to charge the batteries.
The problem here is the AC load center. Breakers and wiring for the 110V AC part of the coach. Likely the connection to the Air conditioner circuit breaker. That breaker 'clips' on to the AC buss bar in the back, and should be ok. The black wire from the 110vAC romex lead going to the air con, is connected to a more accessible area at the bottom of the A/C breaker. Likely that part developed a poor connection. Heat from that may have melted some insulation on that romex wire. Similarly because of the large amount of power used by the A/C unit, the connection of the corresponding white neutral wire may have also developed a poor connection at the neutral buss bar. So those screws, and at the base of the A/C circuit breaker need to be tightened.
Like most objects that get hot, copper swells up when running current. It shrinks a little when it cools down. Repeated cycles of hot/cold causes the copper to 'creep' away from a good contact. Tightening the screws holding the copper wire in place in the connection point, will correct this creep. Every 4-5 years is a good interval to check those wires. The grounds (bare wires) should never conduct electricity, so they should be ok. The neutral (white wires) are all in one place and easy to check for tightness. (don't strip out the heads, and don't snap any off!). RonB
The converter should be fine, there is no need to replace.
As Steve and I have said, the issue is behind the plate in the Power Center that covers the 120-volt breakers.
The large current flow when the A/C cycles on will stress any poor, loose connection, eventually burning the spot where the wire(s) are secured. This is why I recommend checking all the connections in the Power Center every two years, even more so if the rig is used frequently or is full-time.
The air conditioner is the major cause of this problem, the A/C pulls several times more power for the split second when the compressor cycles on. This surge can overheat a poor connection.
The long-term cure is to install a Soft-Start on the A/C, which starts the compressor slowly without the damaging
surge of power. Our LD’s A/C has been damaged twice by brown-outs, and installing a soft-start several years ago eliminated further problems.
SoftStartRV – The RV AC Soft Start For Any RV Air Conditioner (https://www.softstartrv.com)
Larry
I like Larry’s recommendation. Reducing inrush current spike thermal loosening of the wiring connector screws would be yet another benefit of adding the SoftStart A/C device.
I'm a novice with electrical. Should I be seeing damaged/burned wires in the power center ?
Bill
I see no issues there - if there is no sign of charred insulation or burn marks anywhere here, it was not the problem. Still, tighten all the setscrews securing wires - this section is retained if the 12V converter unit is replaced...
Steve
So after checking the power center connections for looseness (with all 120V and 12V power sources isolated), how should Bill proceed?
So after checking the power center connections for looseness (with all 120V and 12V power sources isolated), how should Bill proceed?
Look for - sign of charred insulation or burn marks anywhere else...
Steve
Thanks for that photo. Still looks so clean! That double handle circuit breaker should have two black wires coming out at the bottom. I could only clearly see one. That white wire at the left isn't connected to that circuit breaker and is just passing nearby. I would pull it slightly away from that breaker to have a better look at whatever black wire should be there. (microwave?)
If you are really sure it was related to the Air Con, One other member had a wire nut connection between the Marinco plug socket and Romex cable going to the entire power distribution center fail. Didn't, but could have started a fire since it was in close proximity to wood framing. That was the back side of the incoming shore power wire socket. This socket had pigtail wires coming out (about 6" #10 leads). I'm not sure where on a MidBath you could access this.
Another possible location would be at the insides of the air conditioner, in the ceiling at the incoming connections. You might need to pull off the plastic ceiling cover to get to this. Inspecting these connections after 6 years isn't a waste of time. I have found plenty of marginal installations that way. Before they became problems. RonB
Since you feel the smell was coming from the Power Center, check the wiring behind the PC.
Remove the cabinet panel on the right side of the Power Center to access the wiring behind it. The panel is secured with Velcro, and it pulls off. Something is burning. Check the converter’s wiring too.
Another possibility is the A/C itself. I have had two incidents where wiring inside the A/C burned during brownouts.
If I had a burning smell and couldn’t find it, I would set my wife upon the problem, she has a more sensitive nose.
Larry
Check the terminal blocks inside the transfer switch. This is a metal box attached to the rear of the power center. They are setscrew terminals similar to the one inside the power center, and can loosen.
I recreated the problem last night in our driveway by plugging into shore power and turning on the AC. In a few minutes I smelled the electrical burning odor and figured out it was a circuit breaker the had been installed for the inverter. I have an appointment scheduled with the installer next week and my concern is why did this happen and why won't it happen again. I post the answer next week. I guess I shouldn't be surprised that the problem wasn't with anything original the Lazy Daze build.
Thank you to everyone who responded so quickly. It's a great to know so many people are available and willing to help.
Bill
While they are at it, that should be mounted in an electrical box not just wood cutout in the wall. A real fire potential there.
Jon
Does the inverter power the A/C?
I don’t understand why the A/C, which has its own circuit breaker, would have an influence on the inverter’s circuit breaker unless all the 120-VAC power is provided by the inverter when connected to shore power.
It’s a good thing you tracked this down.
Jon is correct, it is against every electrical code to mount such a device in a wood cutout. This could have easily burned your Lazy Daze to the ground.
What unprofessional work!
It’s time to go back to the installer and get this corrected.
Larry.
I'm glad you found that Bill; I hope that it gets 'handled' by your installer. Jon and Larry are right about that wiring needing to be mounted in a steel box.
Thanks Andy for pointing out the connections in the buss transfer box. I've never checked mine out. I'd say I don't use the box, but I use the A/C as a load for the generator exercise, routinely. RonB
In addition to that breaker panel not being mounted in a box (horrifying!), those terminals are Walmart-grade junk, and the crimps don't look any too good. If it were me, I'd redo all of those terminations with FTZ Crimp 'N' Seal ring terminals (https://www.fisheriessupply.com/ftz-industries-crimp-n-seal-ring-terminals/31514-p25), applied with an FTZ or equivalent ratcheting crimping tool. (https://www.fisheriessupply.com/ftz-industries-controlled-cycle-crimp-tool/94130)
Also, if it were me, I would not go back to that installer! Judging by the slipshod and potentially lethal workmanship shown here, I wouldn't trust them to do a good job of remediating this disaster.
RV shops regularly charge $150 an hour. At these rates, many RV owners shy away from high-end shops, preferring a lower price. This shop appears to cut corners to keep the price down.
You get what you pay for. As I have said for years, RV is not a cheap lifestyle..
When I worked on LDs, many times people would balk at the time I estimated a project would take, not having a clue about how complicated many jobs were.
Almost every job is unique, and it takes time to plan the job, especially when electrical work is involved. Anyone who has done this type of work knows it can take several times longer than what originally seems to be a reasonable estimate.. BTDT
I would like to know if the inverter's breaker burned while running the A/C on shore power. Is it a pass-through inverter?
Larry
For what it's worth, the neutral appears to be the one that's burnt. Like Andy said bad connections. But what kind of a breaker has the neutral running through it or am I seeing it wrong?
Jon
Does the inverter power the A/C?
That would require a
substantial bank of battery storage and means to charge those batteries. And obviously something along the lines of a 3 kW inverter.
I don’t understand why the A/C, which has its own circuit breaker, would have an influence on the inverter’s circuit breaker unless all the 120-VAC power is provided by the inverter when connected to shore power.
It’s a good thing you tracked this down.
Given that's a separate breaker (not a pass-through that's part of the inverter), one has to wonder at the schematic on this, including both DC and AC wire gauges.
"one has to wonder at the schematic on this, including both DC and AC wire gauges."
Agreed! I'll say it again: that installer was clueless. Find somebody who knows what they're doing to fix this (literally) hot mess.
Thanks to everyone who has responded so far.
The inverter is a luxury item for us and not a necessity and we would only use it when "boondocking" at Walmart or staying in a campsite without hookups and it would be a convenient way to use the microwave, coffee maker, and Starlink without running the generator.
I have an appointment with the installer on June 12th and I have three options:
1 - Have the installer make the repairs. This really isn't an option based on the opinions I've gotten from all of you telling me his skills are woefully inadequate.
2- Have everything he installed removed. This is an irrational option I had while falling asleep last night. It's kind of a "turn back the clock" option to make believe it never happened.
3 - Have the inverter disabled until we can find a competent RV technician who can install it correctly. There would be no rush to do this. We leave Florida on June 2nd and will return in mid-October and it would be no problem for us to wait until the fall to get it fixed. This seems to be my best (and only) option.
If anyone has any other ideas, please let me know. If you know of a good RV place for this type of work anywhere in Florida, that would be great.
I've added some photos. The inverter is installed in the outside compartment under the coach batteries. The transfer switch is located in the cabinet under the sink. The red and white wires in that picture are not for the transfer switch.. I included another picture of the burned out breaker that shows the white wire with the melted insulation.
This is the place that did the installation. They are located in Sarasota and I'm south of them in Venice.
Van & Bus Conversions In Florida | Our Van Quest | Florida Adventure Vans (https://www.ourvanquest.com/)
Bill
Bill, I don’t know any repair shops in your neck of the woods but I believe fellow forum member Mike Coachman is just north of Tampa. He’s pretty knowledgeable in electrical stuff and may be able to advise you, or refer you to a good shop. He can be contacted through the forum. He’s helped me out a few times.
Oh, great. He used red wire for the negative lead from the batteries to the inverter, with a tiny "neg" scribbled on it. And looking at your original photo, the opening in the cabinet that was made for this panel is so crude that the mounting screws on the right aren't even gripping the wood. (Not to mention that the pieces of what is apparently supposed to be trim around the opening don't even meet up.) Electrically and physically, this is the worst installation I can ever remember seeing.
My advice: Don't use that inverter. Try running the air conditioner while monitoring that transfer switch to see whether it starts to heat up. If it does, don't use the air conditioner either.
Cancel your appointment.
Send your photos to the installer's boss and point out the potentially lethal fire hazard, bad wiring, bad terminals, and bad carpentry.
Then find somebody local (hopefully our members can help) who can look at your rig and check everything that installer did, from top to bottom, and redo as necessary.
Finally, send the bill to "Our Van Quest" and demand that they reimburse you for the cost of repairing the appallingly unsafe job they did. Point out that if your rig had burned down, they'd be getting a MUCH bigger bill!
Since it appears the A/C power supply runs through the inverter, it needs to be rewired so this isn’t an option, or it needs to be upgraded so this issue doesn’t happen again. This needs to be done before you leave on your trip; you will need the A/C during the summer.
The inverter’s breaker needs to be mounted in a metal box for protection against fire. If this were in a house, it would be a code violation. Until this happens, and the wiring is repaired, I would not use the inverter under any condition..
A wiring diagram would be helpful, I have no idea why the breaker has so many wires going to it
A small inverter that plugs into a 12-volt outlet could be used for the Starlink.
As Greg said, Mike Coachman is a good source of advice and may be able to suggest a reliable shop.
Larry
FWIW - I had zero success running a Starlink Mini from a 150W PSW inverted powered from the TV/accessory 12V source or the 12V socket next to the table in my 2015 TK. I then tested the inverter by powering it directly from the starting battery in another vehicle and the Starlink was fine.
It's possible that LD used larger conductors on these circuits in older models with incandescent lighting, but I'd be surprised if it works with your 2019.
Steve
Bill,
I haven't been online much lately and just got caught up in your serious issues. You need to see a competent RV repair business when you return home to Florida. Even though I haven't needed a repair service where I live north of Tampa I did check what is available around Sarasota that is well rated. Here is what I found:
RV Electrical Repairs | Rudy's RV Repair | Sarasota & Bradenton, FL (https://www.rudysrvrepair.com/rv-electrical)
RV Repair Sarasota | Campbell RV (https://www.campbellrv.com/rv-service)
Try Rudy's first as Campbells is a vehicle dealership and may prioritize repairs to what they sell. Only a guess. They do have good ratings.
Let's hope your summer travels go without any more electrical issues.
Mike C
It's discouraging that Our Van Quest's website has a bunch of glowing customer reviews, yet they did such a terrible job. How is one to tell whom to trust? Maybe this job was done by a newly hired tech, but that's no excuse.
I cancelled the appointment with the original installer and made an appointment with a high end place in Bradenton, FL. I need to get this fixed before we leave on June 2nd and they had time available on May 20th. The labor rate is (gasp !) $299 per hour. I jokingly said to John, the service manager, that at this point, it sounds like a good deal to me. When I meet him in person, I'm going to ask him how quickly some people hang up the phone when he mentions that number.
I'll ask the repair technician for a very detailed list of the problems that he found and report it back here.
This is the place: Luxury Motor Coaches and RV Dealership: The Motorcoach Store - The Motorcoach... (https://www.themotorcoachstore.com/)
Bill
I have a similar unit, though 1000 watt Renogy in my VW bus. It does not have the AC line out like the 2000 does and I plug items directly into it which is not an option in your case or harder to do. These are very affordable and work well but are designed more for systems that only have battery power.
I am trying to figure out how they connected this by the pix provided. I would think that the DC switch to turn it on and the blue Sea AC breaker which appears to be this, not sure amperage..... second picture looks like the back of yours.....
Blue Sea Fuse (https://defender.com/en_us/blue-sea-systems-ac-main-circuit-breaker-panel-8077?srsltid=AfmBOorjjIepMhaf1zIrOwF8CV7-hh1Ym0j8TkHGjm9AQqdSyDPHqQX5NcI&gQT=1)
would both need to be off when plugged into shore power assuming you have a generator and that transfer switch is for gen. If you have no gen and the Inverter takes the place of the generator and they installed the transfer switch for your system, then that make more sense. But if you have shore power, generator and an inverter coexisting, and gen or shore supplying power and if AC and DC switches are on for the inverter system, then you get sparks. Did they tell you specific scenarios of switch positions to use for the invertor? There really should be no room for error. Maybe others can determine but is that pix of the Go Power Transfer Switch that LD uses for Gen or was this installed by the inverter people and you potentially have 2 Transfer Switches?
Everyone has their certain need or preference. I tend to go with the inverter (Pure sine) with AC passthrough and multistage charging (including now Lithium). If you don't pull the RV AC plugs out into a sub panel then the A/C and refer (everything) will run off the invertor if you have it on. Requires you to pay close attention and a battery monitor would tell you pretty quickly. Typically I run a subpanel for the plugs and make the outlet for the refer go direct to the AC fuse panel in converter box on its own breaker. This all assumes 2 way AC/propane refer.
Here is what I have.. never installed in my truck camper, now ready for the LD.
Xantrex Invertor (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B074V5JKLX?ref_=pe_527950_33920290_dpLink&th=1)
Please let us know how it goes and by the way, the transfer switch version of the 2000 Renogy is about $350. Yours appears to be the non transfer switch version by looks plus only 1 set of AC lines going to it.
Ramon
One or more of the messages of this topic have been moved to Lazy Daze Technical (https://www.lazydazeowners.com/index.php?board=2.0) - https://www.lazydazeowners.com/index.php?topic=40158.0 for visibility to assist the member posting; they are a different issue.
Thought i was replying to the issue about the burnt wires from an inverter install, continuing the conversation. I'm confused. www responding about a 2019 LD problem. Not a 2004 converter power failure.
Thought i was replying to the issue about the burnt wires from an inverter install, continuing the conversation. I'm confused. www responding about a 2019 LD problem. Not a 2004 converter power failure.
Sorry - I missed that during the split. Fixed it.
Thank you Michelle :D
The problems were fixed and we were able to leave Florida on June 2nd as planned.
I misspoke when I said the breaker with the melted wires was for the inverter. The repair technician said it was for the 30 amp shore power. Here is a summary of the problems the Motorcoach Store in Bradenton, Florida found and corrected.
All connections at the 2 pole 30 amp breaker were loose. Replaced the breaker.
Installed 250 amp fuse near battery for feeding power to the inverter. Lack of fuse is a fire hazard.
Rewired 12 volt converter to circuit breaker in panel.
Numerous poor connections were redone.
Found a broken negative battery clamp and replaced it.
Cleaned up wiring under the sink.
The cost for these repairs was approximately $2200 and a lot of it was diagnostic time, which I understand. I haven't contacted the original installer yet with this number. I'll let you know what his reaction is.
I can't say enough about the level of professionalism at the Motorcoach Store. It was pricey, but in the long run, quality costs less and now we can sleep in our LD with the AC on and not worry about melting wires.
Thanks again to everyone who commented on my post.
Bill
Thank you for reporting back on the final outcome!
Bill, I'm very glad that you were able to get all those problems fixed. It's rather horrifying what the original installer did. I'm sorry that you had to spend money on that original bad installation! But how could you know, given the glowing customer reviews on their website? Grrr...
Bill, Thanks for the update. was thinking about this last week. Glad you got it all sorted out. That's quite a bill. Hope you get some reimbursement.
Ramon
Good news. I emailed the invoice for $2,133.25 to the original installer two days ago. I didn't ask for or demand reimbursement because I wanted to find out if he had integrity, which he did. Today he did an electronic funds transfer for the entire amount to my account.
I still feel that I should write an honest and factual review so other people can avoid the same issues, but I don't want to be vindictive and try to destroy his business. I'll have to think about the wording for a while.
Bill
Good news. I emailed the invoice for $2,133.25 to the original installer two days ago. I didn't ask for or demand reimbursement because I wanted to find out if he had integrity, which he did. Today he did an electronic funds transfer for the entire amount to my account.
I still feel that I should write an honest and factual review so other people can avoid the same issues, but I don't want to be vindictive and try to destroy his business. I'll have to think about the wording for a while.
Bill
My thoughts after reading all this is that they probably do a good job on what they normally do and shouldn't have ventured into adding on to a complex system like the Lazy Daze has.
My thoughts after reading all this is that they probably do a good job on what they normally do and shouldn't have ventured into adding on to a complex system like the Lazy Daze has.
I respectfully disagree. As a van/skoolie builder, they most certainly should know how to properly install RV electrical systems - that's a fundamental part of an upfitter build-out. The things they did wrong and unsafely on this install are appalling.
I agree with Michelle. The things they did would not be acceptable practice on any electrical system – van, skoolie, or class C. And the Lazy Daze's electrical system is not that complex compared to a van or skoolie conversion.
I give them credit for the full refund. If I had to speculate, perhaps the job was done by a newly hired technician, who turned out to be a doofus, and the refund came from the owner, who was horrified to see what the tech had done. With luck, that technician has been fired. In any case, I'm very glad that you didn't lose money; just time and hassle.
And the Lazy Daze's electrical system is not that complex compared to a van or skoolie conversion.
Agree 100% - the LD system is fairly routine, especially compared to what some are trying to do with these conversions and off-the-grid setups that so many are including. Lack of a fuse from the battery to the inverter is basic RV 101.
I would suspect it was the company trying to avoid a lawsuit.
As far as writing a review, I'd consider stating what the job was supposed to be, that the resulting work unfortunately showed it was outside their capability and then had to be completely redone by another RV service shop, but that the company issued 100% compensation for cost to correct their work upon being presented with the photos of the original work and receipt showing the cost of to have it redone properly. Just stick to the facts as they pertain to this job.
I will offer that I visited their website after seeing this resolution, and I'm sorry, but the "as see on" links just smack of influencer gorp. The reviews displayed on their website are just over-the-top, especially this one: "so passionate, so open, so authentic".