Lately I've been thinking I should check the torque on the spark plugs on my V10 with 35k miles to avoid the blown spark plug issue some poor souls have experienced. My understanding is that Ford improved the heads at some point adding more threads to better secure the spark plugs. So how do you identify these improved heads? From what I have read in the past there really isn’t a good way to tell besides removing a spark plug and looking at tell tale signs if it was screwed into a 4 thread head or a 8 thread head.
Well I came across another forum last night where a fellow said that 8 thread heads can be identified by a PI mark on the head which stands for Performance Improved. He said you could spot this PI mark on the passenger side head toward the front of the head. Well today I crawled under my TK and looked up from behind the front passenger tire and spotted the PI mark. So I’m thinking how cool is that! I might have the higher thread count heads. My TK was finished in Oct 2003 and the Ford chassis was built in May.
Do I have some false confidence going on? Anyone else heard of this PI mark indicating a higher thread count in the V10 heads?
Steve
Lately I've been thinking I should check the torque on the spark plugs on my V10 with 35k miles to avoid the blown spark plug issue some poor souls have experienced.
Do I have some false confidence going on? Anyone else heard of this PI mark indicating a higher thread count in the V10 heads?
Very late model E450s had the improved head. Joan's late in the model run 2003 T/K has the improved head..
Our original V10's build date was stenciled on the engine, August 8, 2002.
If the PI information is true, there should be other sources of information confirming found with searching.
Ford built millions of these engines with the older head, from 1997 to 2003, there is a lot of interest in knowing what head a used V10 engine has. The V10 was built from 1997 to 2003 with the old head and was used in light and medium-duty Ford trucks.
If caught early enough, many times the blown spark plug thread's can be repaired with drill and steel bushing insert kits. I have meet a few owners who had all 10 spark-plug holes repair preemptively. Expensive but a lot less than a new engine.
Larry
Larry,
This link says the improved head started in 2002 but I'm having some major doubts about that since I remember your experience with plugs on your 2003.
Ford Triton V10 (https://www.tomorrowstechnician.com/ford-triton-v10-service/)
Something interesting though is the fact that the head identified as 1C2E is the head with added threads. I've searched 1C2E and have found a couple other sites with similar information. Maybe the date is wrong but if at least the 1C2E marking is on the head perhaps this would be an identifier? I'll have to take another look tomorrow.
Steve
" Joan's late in the model run 2003 T/K has the improved head..Our original V10's build date was stenciled on the engine, August 8, 2002."
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Yes, the engine build date on my TK is May 27, 2003; it has the 7/8 thread plug wells. The plugs were replaced at 87,895k by Blown Out Spark Plug in Santa Ynez. The Ford maintenance schedule recommends replacement of the plugs at 100k, but since I was unsure of the "thread count" and didn't want to take a chance on blowing a plug, the job was done preemptively. The tech commented that May 27, 2003, engine date was the earliest that he had seen with the improved head; I don't know just when Ford made the change, but if the engine in Steve's TK was manufactured in May of 2003, I would expect it to have the 7/8 thread plug wells.
At the time of the change, one plug was slightly loose, but none had any carbon build up, and the wells were clean, and the coils and boots were in good condition. The plugs were replaced with OEM Ford platinum plugs and torqued to the spec that the tech said was correct; that number is not noted on the invoice. (Larry may provide the torque spec number.)
HTH.
At the time of the change, one plug was slightly loose, but none had any carbon build up, and the wells were clean, and the coils and boots were in good condition. The plugs were replaced with OEM Ford platinum plugs and torqued to the spec that the tech said was correct; that number is not noted on the invoice. (Larry may provide the torque spec number.)
From Blown Spart Plug's website.
FAQs (http://www.blownoutsparkplug.com/faqs.htm#Do%20you%20have%20special%20techniques%20for%20installing%20the%20regular%20plugs%20during%20a%20tune%20up%20type%20plug%20change%20to%20help%20stop%20the%20dreaded%20blown%20out%20spark%20plug).
Q: Do you have special techniques for installing the regular plugs during a tune up type plug change to help stop the dreaded blown out spark plug?
A: Yes, Use an air blast before and after plug removal to clean any debris that may affect the seating of the replacement spark plug. Using a small power wire brush or other device remove all carbon from the plug seating area. Torque the replacement spark plugs to 28 foot lbs. In our opinion these 3 items added to a standard spark plug change will guarantee the best success.
Larry
"Torque the replacement spark plugs to 28 foot lbs"
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Thanks for that torque number; I remembered "27 foot pounds", but I don't always remember correctly anymore, so didn't post that number! (I do remember 140 foot pounds for the wheel lug nuts, and assorted other random bits and pieces, but plug torque slipped away....)
"Use an air blast before and after plug removal to clean any debris that may affect the seating of the replacement spark plug. Using a small power wire brush or other device remove all carbon from the plug seating area."
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Blown Out Spark Plug guy did an air blast, of the plug areas and the wells, but there was no carbon at all in the wells or the threads. I also asked him to also air blast whatever the nozzle could reach to remove any dirt, sand, leaves, and/or whatever else had sifted in for almost 90k miles before he removed the plugs; he did, saying most of the women customers asked him to "houseclean"! ;)
Blown Out Spark Plug guy did an air blast, of the plug areas and the wells, but there was no carbon at all in the wells or the threads. I also asked him to also air blast whatever the nozzle could reach to remove any dirt, sand, leaves, and/or whatever else had sifted in for almost 90k miles before he removed the plugs; he did, saying most of the women customers asked him to "houseclean"! ;)
The V10's spark plugs sit in a deep depressions that fill with dirt and debris, they must be blown out before removing the plugs to prevent debris from entering the cylinders.
Larry
Joan,
Interesting to me that even on the newer style head with more threads that one spark plug was a little loose. Not sure if this means that the potential for trouble is even there for the newer heads. I would imagine far less likely.
Here is a brief summary of the head models from what I could find. The first version of the PI head did not have 8 threads. That didn't happen till the second version of the PI head:
F7VE – produced from 1997 until 1999 and known as “Non-PI” version.
YC2E – produced from 2000 until 2001 and known as “PI” version.
1C2E – produced from 2002 until 2004 and known as “PI” version. Same head as the YC2E with differences being to the spark plug threads. 1C2E cylinder head is often referred to as “LP,” meaning long plug.
5C3E – produced from 2005 until 2007, this was the introduction of the three-valve version.
9C3E – produced from 2008 until present and are very similar to the 5C3E except for a smaller combustion chamber which resulted in a small compression change.
Now if I can just find a marking on my heads to confirm what version of PI head I have. Maybe call Ford with my VIN number?
1C2E – produced from 2002 until 2004 and known as “PI” version. Same head as the YC2E with differences being to the spark plug threads. 1C2E cylinder head is often referred to as “LP,” meaning long plug.
5C3E – produced from 2005 until 2007, this was the introduction of the three-valve version. Now if I can just find a marking on my heads to confirm what version of PI head I have. Maybe call Ford with my VIN number?
I doubt if Ford can tell you what heads your engine has, I would assume that you have the old head until proven otherwise.
I don't know when Ford raised the spark plug's torque setting, with Joan's rig having a loose plug, I would assume it was after your engine was built, no matter what heads it uses.
Checking the spark plug's torque is something you may want to consider, before anything bad happens.
Searching, I couldn't find where the head ID number is located, not much of the head can be seen when the engine is installed.
Larry
OK, I crawled back under and I can see the IC2E casting mark. I was able to take a picture but it's poor quality but good enough to see the casting mark. You can see the shock tower for reference where to look.
That last picture was pretty bad. Hopefully this will show better. I left the exhaust manifold in to get a perspective. My last post referenced the spring tower but I meant to say shock tower.
Thanks for the new photo and the correction; I couldn’t see any tower spring! 😉
Steve,
Our chassis was also built in May, 2003 (I see nothing indicating a more precise date). We did much as Joan did, having the blown out spark plug guys replace the plugs at 50K miles. By counting the treads at that time they confirmed that we have the newer heads. So I suspect you're correct that you do too.
We still have the same plugs in at 130,000 miles. I don't plan on having them replaced until 150K miles unless the engine starts running poorly sooner.
Joan and Terry, our three chassis' were all built in May of '03 and have the heads with the higher thread count. Well mine has not been verified by taking out a plug but it does have the IC2E mark. If either of you ever find yourselves on your back immediately aft of the front passenger tire with a flash light in hand please take a look at the head markings and see if you can see IC2E and PI. It would be interesting to have another data point.
I've looked around the engine and have not seen a build date. My May date is being read off of the label in the door jamb that also shows the tire pressures.
Our 2003’s V10 engine has a date stamp that is five months earlier than the coach build date.
Why don’t pull the doghouse and check to see what head you have and to reset the plug’s torque. It would save you a lot of worrying.
Larry
The paperwork for my 2003 LD shows that it was ordered 11/9/2002 and coach was delivered to Topanga CA on 7/8/2003. When I got the coach home I changed out all sparkplugs, even though the RV only had 42k miles. I had the 8 thread heads, none of the plugs were loose. I had new plugs and plug wires installed. At the same time I had the Banks hedders installed and virtually everyone of the mounting studs were rusted and we had to drill out several of them.
The paperwork for my 2003 LD shows that it was ordered 11/9/2002 and coach was delivered to Topanga CA on 7/8/2003. When I got the coach home I changed out all sparkplugs, even though the RV only had 42k miles. I had the 8 thread heads, none of the plugs were loose. I had new plugs and plug wires installed. At the same time I had the Banks hedders installed and virtually everyone of the mounting studs were rusted and we had to drill out several of them.
Richard, where was home for your LD before you brought it to AZ?
Chris
At the same time I had the Banks heders installed and virtually everyone of the mounting studs were rusted and we had to drill out several of them.
Age and the high heat of thousands of miles of operation causes the steel studs to rust and eventually break, it's a problem with all of Ford's modular engines have.
Another hazard the buyers of older rigs can look forward to.
A few years ago, we had the doghouse off at a good friend's 2003, I noticed several of the exhaust manifold nuts were missing on the passenger side, along with the studs. Checking the remaining nuts, two more fell off, rusted away. A total of six were missing.
The exhaust manifold was not properly attached and allowed leakage, ultimately causing the manifold to warp.
It was an expensive repair, requiring all the studs to be removed and replaced, along with a new exhaust manifold.
Larry
I'm reasonably confident I have the 8 thread head since my head has the 1C2E marking. The picture I took is at the front of the head visible from underneath. No need to remove the dog house for ID. I will eventually check the torque though.
I did notice that those exhaust manifold studs are super thin! What was ford thinking?!
I'm reasonably confident I have the 8 thread head since my head has the 1C2E marking. The picture I took is at the front of the head visible from underneath. No need to remove the dog house for ID. I will eventually check the torque though.
I did notice that those exhaust manifold studs are super thin! What was ford thinking?!
I would still want to check the torque on the plugs, According to both of the guys at Blown Spark Plug (one of who is a long-term Ford mechanic at El Cajon Ford), they were originally set to 12-ft/lbs and later increased to 28-ft/lbs. The early torque setting was much too low to retain the plugs consistantly.
They also told me that while blow outs are less common with the new head, they still occur, mostly on older rigs.
Joan's 2003, with the newer head, had a loose plug.
Larry
OK, I crawled under there. My head markings say both 1C2E and PI. In addition the blown spark plug guys counted 8 threads when they changed my plugs and of course they torqued them to their recommendations. So I think I'm about as good as I can be.
Our chassis date on the driver's door is May, 2003. I've not seen an engine build date.
Photo attached.
Chris Horst, My LD was delivered to Topanga in 2003. That owner sold it in 2011 while traveling through Oregon to a dealer and bought a Coachhouse (?). The second owner bought from that dealer and it remained in Bend Oregon until 2018 and I bought it and brought it to Tucson.
My TK has "Date of Engine Manufacture - May 27, 2003" on a label on the head (cover); it's not visible unless the dog house is removed.
Chris Horst, My LD was delivered to Topanga in 2003. That owner sold it in 2011 while traveling through Oregon to a dealer and bought a Coachhouse (?). The second owner bought from that dealer and it remained in Bend Oregon until 2018 and I bought it and brought it to Tucson.
Thanks, Richard. I was wondering if the LD resided in a wet climate before you took possession and that's what caused the rusted mounting studs.
Chris
Thanks for all for input given as well as dates for the 8 thread head. And, thanks Terry for crawling under and snapping the picture confirming your 8 thread head has the IC2E marking.
It wasn't till a couple years ago when I first started looking for my LD that I came across the blown spark plugs issue. In the end I concluded that with proper maintenance and inspection it's an issue that can be managed regardless of which version head you have.
Concerning the rusty exhaust manifold studs... I've seen this on many different engines. I have just assumed thermal cycling contributes to the rust.
It wasn't till a couple years ago when I first started looking for my LD that I came across the blown spark plugs issue. In the end I concluded that with proper maintenance and inspection it's an issue that can be managed regardless of which version head you have.
I thought the same until our engine commited suicide. I had replaced the plugs at around 80,000 miles, after hearing a ticking at startup. I found two plugs that were finger tight. The other were not much tighter, their original torque set at 12-ft/lbs of torque, the updated torque setting is 28-ft/lbs.
The spark plugs threads in our old engine must have been damaged by the loose spark plugs, 15,000 miles later, a plug blew out, taking the aluminum threads with it. On examination, several other spark plug threads looked damaged.
This is a real issue, there are several aftermaket repair kits for this problem as well as a small company that does nothing but replaced blown plugs, assuming the rest of the engine is still intact.
Larry
Contact Information (http://www.blownoutsparkplug.com/Contact.htm)
Blown out spark plug repairs
I spoke with Dave who does this service....he said you can create a.problem by retorquing the original plugs...make it blow out....my understanding.
If you look at the web site it explains the issue, bad temp repairs and why their repair works....never had one come back....best to do the repair before you have one blow out....do them all..cheaper than a new cylinder head or engine for sure. I was asking about doing all 10 and the price was 2200 to 2400(web site.explains.cost..less for.doing one or 2)
They will fly to you and do the repair at your home...all they need is an air line and a vaccum cleaner connection....
They also have a temp plug to install so you can disconnect the injector and drive on 9 cylinders to get to them.
Dave and his brother do the work...one is a master tech at a.Ford dealer there in California.
This is a.real problem and should not be ignored. Just replacing the spark plugs and torguing to new specs will not keep the spark plugs from blowing out in the future. This is one repair you dont want to cheap out on....
And for those folks wanting to sell a pre 04 with the 4/5 threads.....have all of them done before selling....should increase the price you get to cover the cost. Buyers just want to get home safe without a breakdown.
Remember Karma is a real thing....just a matter of time.
Contact Information (http://www.blownoutsparkplug.com/Contact.htm)
I spoke with Dave who does this service....he said you can create a.problem by retorquing the original plugs...make it blow out....my understanding.
If you look at the web site it explains the issue, bad temp repairs and why there repair works....never had one come back....best to do the repair before you have one blow out....do them all..cheaper than a new cylinder head or engine for sure. I was asking about doing all 10 and the price was 2200 to 2400(web site.explains.cost..less for.doing one or 2)
They will fly to you and do the repair at your home...all they need is an air line and a vaccum cleaner connection....
They also have a temp plug to install so you can disconnect the injector and drive on 9 cylinders to get to them.
Dave and his brother do the work...one is a master tech at a.Ford dealer there in California.
This is a.real probl3m and should not be ignored. Just replacing the spark plugs and torguing to new specs will not keep the spark plugs from blowing out in the future. This is one repair you dont want to cheap out on....
And for those folks wanting to sell a pre 04 with the 4/5 threads.....have all of them done before selling....should increase the price you get to cover the cost. Buyers just want to get home safe without a breakdown.
Remember Karma is a real thing....just a matter of time.
Thanks, Richard. I was wondering if the LD resided in a wet climate before you took possession and that's what caused the rusted mounting studs.
Several LD owners have had the exhaust manifold studs replaced due to rusting and breaking, evidently common with Ford Modular engines of the period. If the studs break and are not quickly replaced, the exhaust manifolds can warp, a very expensive repair. If you hear any ticking from the exhaust, especially at startup, have them checked. oose spark plugs can also make a startup tick.
Older, 4-thread heads are a catastrophe waiting to happen, no matter if the plugs have been replaced or not. Our 2003's plugs were replaced and torque to the new, higher level at 80,000 miles. It lasted 20,000 before the first plug blew out.
For those planning on keeping these old engines for the long-term or travel long distances from home, having ten spark plug inserts installed is highly suggested. I know of three LDs having this done in the past few months, all three are now on long, cross-country trips.
Larry