Would the extra panel option benefit charging time enough to justify its cost?
I know $850 sounds real high priced for one panel install but I'd consider it if it makes a big difference.
I'm not planning for extra battery banks and an inverter.
Just the stock configuration.
Is this on a new coach?
My thinking would be like this. If I was likely to be happy with 1 panel but considering 2, I'd buy 2.
I would stick with one if I was likely to substantially upgrade the system beyond 2 in my first few years of ownership.
'I have too much solar capacity', said no one, ever......
Rich
'03 MB in NC
We've been through this before, but...
Everybody's needs are different. Some might be fine with a single panel. For some, like me, 5 panels are barely enough. I would rather have 6. What you need depends on how you use your equipment, where you camp geographically, when you camp seasonally, and whether you are in campgrounds with hookups or whether you are dry camping. When I ordered my rig, I knew I would need much more than two panels, so I requested no panels, and had AM Solar do the entire setup.
If you think your needs will be minimal, after calculating your daily energy consumption needs, or if you think you might need more than two panels some day, go with the single panel for now. If you know you will need more than two, and can get the rig with none, do that, and have your system designed and installed with all matching panels, the right wiring, the right battery bank, the right solar controller, all matched so you get maximum efficiency.
If in doubt of your needs, the way to determine your energy consumption is to look at every single piece of electrical power, determine its consumption, figure how many hours a day you use it, then add that all up. Take the maximum power a panel can provide and divide it by 2, because you will rarely get that power, except for midday, summertime, with the sun directly overhead on cloudless days. Using the panel power you just calculated, assume 3 hours of charging in the winter, and 5 hours in the summer, with lower charge rates earlier and later in the day. Then, knowing what you are likely to need, and what a panel can provide, you can estimate how many panels you will need. If someone tells you you will need no more than two panels without going through the numbers, pay no attention. Again, we are all different, and what works for one of us is not necessarily adequate for someone else.
Ken F in WY
Is this on a new coach?
My thinking would be like this. If I was likely to be happy with 1 panel but considering 2, I'd buy 2.
I would stick with one if I was likely to substantially upgrade the system beyond 2 in my first few years of ownership.
'I have too much solar capacity', said no one, ever......
Rich
'03 MB in NC
Thanks.
Yes, new.
'I have too much solar capacity', said no one, ever......
Get the second panel, unless you plan on upgrading to even more solar capacity n the future.
Our electrical needs seem to increase over time, and not decease.
In the wintertime, a single panel may have difficulties keeping the battery charged, even with light usage.
Larry
We've been through this before, but...
Everybody's needs are different. Some might be fine with a single panel. For some, like me, 5 panels are barely enough. I would rather have 6. What you need depends on how you use your equipment, where you camp geographically, when you camp seasonally, and whether you are in campgrounds with hookups or whether you are dry camping. When I ordered my rig, I knew I would need much more than two panels, so I requested no panels, and had AM Solar do the entire setup.
If you think your needs will be minimal, after calculating your daily energy consumption needs, or if you think you might need more than two panels some day, go with the single panel for now. If you know you will need more than two, and can get the rig with none, do that, and have your system designed and installed with all matching panels, the right wiring, the right battery bank, the right solar controller, all matched so you get maximum efficiency.
If in doubt of your needs, the way to determine your energy consumption is to look at every single piece of electrical power, determine its consumption, figure how many hours a day you use it, then add that all up. Take the maximum power a panel can provide and divide it by 2, because you will rarely get that power, except for midday, summertime, with the sun directly overhead on cloudless days. Using the panel power you just calculated, assume 3 hours of charging in the winter, and 5 hours in the summer, with lower charge rates earlier and later in the day. Then, knowing what you are likely to need, and what a panel can provide, you can estimate how many panels you will need. If someone tells you you will need no more than two panels without going through the numbers, pay no attention. Again, we are all different, and what works for one of us is not necessarily adequate for someone else.
Ken F in WY
We've been happy with our 1995TK with 2 Trojan 105's. I changed out the converter to a Progressive Dynamics and that really helped. We have no solar and have gotten by okay. I'd love to not need a generator to charge though.
We've been through this before, but...
Everybody's needs are different. Some might be fine with a single panel. For some, like me, 5 panels are barely enough. I would rather have 6. What you need depends on how you use your equipment, where you camp geographically, when you camp seasonally, and whether you are in campgrounds with hookups or whether you are dry camping. When I ordered my rig, I knew I would need much more than two panels, so I requested no panels, and had AM Solar do the entire setup.
If you think your needs will be minimal, after calculating your daily energy consumption needs, or if you think you might need more than two panels some day, go with the single panel for now. If you know you will need more than two, and can get the rig with none, do that, and have your system designed and installed with all matching panels, the right wiring, the right battery bank, the right solar controller, all matched so you get maximum efficiency.
If in doubt of your needs, the way to determine your energy consumption is to look at every single piece of electrical power, determine its consumption, figure how many hours a day you use it, then add that all up. Take the maximum power a panel can provide and divide it by 2, because you will rarely get that power, except for midday, summertime, with the sun directly overhead on cloudless days. Using the panel power you just calculated, assume 3 hours of charging in the winter, and 5 hours in the summer, with lower charge rates earlier and later in the day. Then, knowing what you are likely to need, and what a panel can provide, you can estimate how many panels you will need. If someone tells you you will need no more than two panels without going through the numbers, pay no attention. Again, we are all different, and what works for one of us is not necessarily adequate for someone else.
Ken F in WY
Ken,
Do you have any pictures showing how you fit the panels on your rig?
I've got an 01 MB that has none at the moment. I've seen some you tube videos that have peaked my interest. I'm looking to plan out solar, lithium batteries, victron multiplus, etc...
I seriously doubt it's possible, but I'd love to be able to have enough juice to run the AC off grid. I did see someone that is running a mini-split AC totally off grid, but he had 8 panel's.
We have one panel on our 31 foot 07 which we bought new. Gotten by ok boondocking all over U,S, and Canada,
[if i had to do it over again, would have purchased 2 panels.
Bob]
We did exactly as Rich suggested....2 has been fine so far....
I seriously doubt it's possible, but I'd love to be able to have enough juice to run the AC off grid. I did see someone that is running a mini-split AC totally off grid, but he had 8 panel's.
The mini-split in that video is 8000 BTU.
Most RV A/C units are 13,500 or 15,000 BTUs, and require even more power.
FYI - to let you know what you're up against.
Rich
'03 MB in NC
Henness, no pics but I have one on each side of the front hatch and one on each side of the AC unit. Those 4 are longitudinal. I have a 5th one that is transverse, directly behind the front hatch. I discussed with AM solar putting a 6th one, transverse, behind the AC unit. The concern we both had was lift from air flow, and I decided not to do it. I could have added a 6th if I removed the TV antenna, but I use the TV antenna occasionally.
As to running the AC off grid, I believe the AC draw is 20 amps at 120 volts. To run that using your battery bank charged from solar panels, the draw, ignoring losses in cabling and the inverter, would be 200 amps. A 12v 200 amp-hour battery would be drained in 1 hour. My 5 panels max out at between 25 and 30 amps, so I would need 8 hours of 25 amp charging for one hour of run time of the AC unit.
Ken F in WY
Having worked out all the details for my Solar upgrade at AM Solar next month, I’ve noticed one thing. When it comes to solar upgrades and cost, figure on doubling the cost of any component.
Even at AM Solars reasonable hourly rate of $120 a $300 panel will generally cost twice that. Remember also that you’re not just buying the extra panel when upgrading to two panels at the mothership. You are also purchasing the requisite cables needed for the install plus the labor cost.
We had the extra panel installed when we purchased our ‘15 RB. It worked well until the AGM’s were ageing out and abused.
I’m moving up to 4 more panels on the roof, an added quick connect at ground level for an additional 230 watt portable panel and four 100 amp hour Battle Born Lithium’s.
Add to that some serious electronic upgrades to the whole thing and I hope to only fire up the generator for its bi monthly exercise.
As close as I can figure, the total cost of the installed parts is half of the overall cost of the completed installation.
Pricey? It’ll pay for itself over the next 20 years in ease of operation alone and it’ll be quiet as a lamb and everyone can appreciate that.
Kent
Ken said "A 12v 200 amp-hour battery would be drained in 1 hour. My 5 panels max out at between 25 and 30 amps, so I would need 8 hours of 25 amp charging for one hour of run time of the AC unit. "
Don't forget battery capacity is usually stated at the 20 hour rate. This means that a 200 AH battery can deliver 10 amps for 20 hours before reaching safe minimum. If you draw more than 10 amps, that capacity is reduced. If you draw 200 amps, you would be lucky to get 30 minutes from that 200 AH battery.
Rich - ex 2000 MB - Birch Bay, WA
I know $850 sounds real high priced for one panel install but I'd consider it if it makes a big difference.
My $.02 worth: I found the single panel was not enough for boondocking when I started doing so in 2018. I can convince myself absent any empirical data that a second one would be sufficient. Last year I added 460 W for about $6K. I can also convince myself that that is a $5K penalty for short shortsightedness.
That said, I'm glad I have 560 W.
YMMV
Joel
Here's a photo of my former midbath's roof with six 100 W panels. Note that there's no "batwing" TV antenna and no satellite-TV dish. Since I don't have a TV, I removed them both. If I hadn't, I would not have been able to fit six panels. And as you can see, there's barely room to walk on the roof.
(The black and orange box just aft of the air conditioner is a Ridgid tool case that contains the tilt bars for the panels.)
"I did see someone that is running a mini-split AC totally off grid, but he had 8 panel's."
Be aware that a solar panel can generate anywhere from 80 watts to several hundred. So seeing that a rig has a certain number of panels doesn't tell you anything. What counts is how many watts it has.
Keep in mind that battery capacity must be matched to panel wattage. It won't do you much good to have a thousand watts of panels if you only have a couple hundred amp-hours of batteries. The most common rule of thumb is one amp-hour of battery per watt of solar panel.
And finally, when under a very heavy load such as running an air conditioner, lead-acid batteries perform well below their rated capacities. (Look up 'Peukert's law' for a technical explanation.) So even if you had a thousand watts of solar panels and a thousand rated amp-hours of batteries, you wouldn't get anywhere near a thousand amp-hours of service when running an air conditioner.
LiFePO4 batteries do much better with heavy loads, but now you're talking five times the cost.
For reference, here's our 24' Twin King at AM Solar with 640 watts in place.
Losing the bat wing, which we have yet to use, we could easily have a fifth panel for a total of 800w. However our current setup allows for months of boondocking, running the microwave every day plus computers and everything else without any real effort to converve energy. Only the air conditioning would require shore power or generator.
When we're at our home base, we have no problems running the 2800cfm swamp cooler off the inverter/battery when Edison is having issue, like right now as I type!
Steve
(http://www.gwenbarnes.com/files/LDTK_640w.jpg)
Very impressive, Steve! I would not have thought you could get that much wattage on a T/K.
Nice, Steve. It looks to my eye that you might fit another between the front vent and the AC. Did you measure for that? It also looks like the panels vary in size. Is that just the angle of the pic?
Ken F in WY
Here's a photo of my former midbath's roof with six 100 W panels. Note that there's no "batwing" TV antenna and no satellite-TV dish. Since I don't have a TV, I removed them both. If I hadn't, I would not have been able to fit six panels. And as you can see, there's barely room to walk on the roof.
(The black and orange box just aft of the air conditioner is a Ridgid tool case that contains the tilt bars for the panels.)
"I did see someone that is running a mini-split AC totally off grid, but he had 8 panel's."
Be aware that a solar panel can generate anywhere from 80 watts to several hundred. So seeing that a rig has a certain number of panels doesn't tell you anything. What counts is how many watts it has.
Keep in mind that battery capacity must be matched to panel wattage. It won't do you much good to have a thousand watts of panels if you only have a couple hundred amp-hours of batteries. The most common rule of thumb is one amp-hour of battery per watt of solar panel.
And finally, when under a very heavy load such as running an air conditioner, lead-acid batteries perform well below their rated capacities. (Look up 'Peukert's law' for a technical explanation.) So even if you had a thousand watts of solar panels and a thousand rated amp-hours of batteries, you wouldn't get anywhere near a thousand amp-hours of service when running an air conditioner.
LiFePO4 batteries do much better with heavy loads, but now you're talking five times the cost.
The plan would be to ditch the lead-acid and go w/ Lithium for batteries. I like your layout for the panels. We have no dish, and don't have a TV so no need for the batwing, so I could lose that easy enough. The rig I saw running the mini-split had an interesting set up where they had the panels double stacked. Looking at your picture, that might be possible for the three at the passenger side. Lots to think about. Will end up being super expensive as well.
Steve,
I understand that the AM Solar installation package allows for tilting each panel. Have you found a need to do so and if so have you noticed an increase in solar gain?
I’m so excited.
Kent
I understand that the AM Solar installation package allows for tilting each panel. Have you found a need to do so and if so have you noticed an increase in solar gain?
Tilting panels will produce more power if...the rig is parked perfectly in an east-west orientation. Get it off 10-15 degrees and all gains are lost. Unless you are boondocking in a flat area, this requirement can be difficult or impossible to achieve.
Tilting panels require going up on the roof and manually tilting them. With a roof full of panels, maneuvering between them can be tricky and a slip can send you off the edge. I always suggested to owners who wanted tilting panels to invest in more panels and eliminate having to mess with tilting, especially for short term visits.
If you are a long-term boondocker and can orient the rig correctly, tilting does work well for winter use.
Larry
Thanks Larry,
The Zamp 90 watt panels I’ve selected have stats that claim low angel efficiency gain of up to 3-5%. Zamp ZS90L 90W Solar Panel (https://amsolar.com/rv-solar-panels/solar-zs90l)
I’ll know better next month if there will be a higher yield panel that fits the RB that can increase overall wattage. There is a lot up there now so the 90’s feel like a good match to the footprint of the panels installed at LD.
Clambering up to tilt the panels isn’t something I would like to do on a regular basis.
Kent
$343 for 90 watts is rather costly--$3.81 per watt. By contrast, standard Renogy 100 W panels cost $1.08 per watt, and even Renogy's high-efficiency (= physically smaller) Eclipse 100 W panels are $1.79 per watt--about half the cost of those skinny 90 W Zamp panels.
I do understand that there's sometimes a need to buy an overpriced panel to fit a given space. Case in point: I paid an insane $350 for a single low-profile 45 W Zamp panel, because it was the only one that would fit on top of my Yakima car-top carrier box. That's $7.78 per watt! It hurt like hell to pay that much, but it was literally the only possible choice. (It powers my car fridge.)
But in your case, Kent, I'd seriously consider removing the factory-installed panels, which are rarely placed optimally, and starting over from a clean slate with more cost-effective panels. Just a thought. :-)
Andy,
Garrett mentioned that they carry most items in stock and my final chooses can be discussed upon arriving at the shop. I do agree that 90 watts is rather underpowered but fitting the available real estate is a prime consideration. As of now nothing is etched in stone.
If a larger more powerful panel will fit, I’d rather go for the Zamp 190 watt dual mode panels. At $365 each, the price seems more in line with your dollar to watt concerns.
I’m not sure what will become of the original panels. Ditching them is no big deal. I’d like to be closer to 1000 watts top side. Perhaps shifting the original panels to another location can be an option. As the panels will be run in parallel, shading should not present too much of an issue from what I understand.
At this point, the scheduled install date is set. Once I get there, Garrett will most likely do his best to obtain the best overall panel configuration for the rig.
I hope my interjections on this thread have not appeared as a hijack. Seemed pretty appropriate to me.
Stay safe.
Kent
$343 for 90 watts is rather costly--$3.81 per watt. By contrast, standard Renogy 100 W panels cost $1.08 per watt, and even Renogy's high-efficiency (= physically smaller) Eclipse 100 W panels are $1.79 per watt-
DIY is getting even cheaper, if it fits. 80 cents a watt.
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Grape-Solar-100-Watt-Polycrystalline-Solar-Panel-for-RV-s-Boats-and-12-Volt-Systems-GS-Star-100W/204211365
Larry
The panels are all identical, 160 watts. This install was Sept 2015, I hear panels that size are 170 watts now.
Even spending 2-3 months off grid for the winter, I've never needed to tilt the panels, which was part of the reason for the excess wattage.
I could probably deal with an extra panel in place of the batwing, but I think cramming another up front would adversely affect roof access.
Sorry for the belated replies.
Steve
Andy,
Garrett mentioned that they carry most items in stock and my final chooses can be discussed upon arriving at the shop. I do agree that 90 watts is rather underpowered but fitting the available real estate is a prime consideration. As of now nothing is etched in stone.
If a larger more powerful panel will fit, I’d rather go for the Zamp 190 watt dual mode panels. At $365 each, the price seems more in line with your dollar to watt concerns.
I’m not sure what will become of the original panels. Ditching them is no big deal. I’d like to be closer to 1000 watts top side. Perhaps shifting the original panels to another location can be an option. As the panels will be run in parallel, shading should not present too much of an issue from what I understand.
At this point, the scheduled install date is set. Once I get there, Garrett will most likely do his best to obtain the best overall panel configuration for the rig.
I hope my interjections on this thread have not appeared as a hijack. Seemed pretty appropriate to me.
Stay safe.
Kent
I felt a slight hijack twinge.
But I'm thankful for the discussion. I'm learning 😎
All good.
Right--"if it fits" is the key. The 100 W Grape Solar panel at Home Depot is very cost-effective (80 cents per watt), but it's five inches wider and three pounds heavier than a Renogy Eclipse 100 W panel. On the other hand, the Eclipse panel costs twice as much. That's the tradeoff with polycrystalline vs. monocrystalline panels: they're cheaper, but larger. If you have room for them, they are a bargain.
Hi,
Based on the knowledge here, I did some calculation and I think our power consumption would be around 130 ah/day. Out of 130 hours, 50 ah will be needed for two lap and two telephone charging. Do truck alternator create enough current during let say 4 hours driving to top off batteries (110 ah) and charge two laptops and cell phones? I know 230 W solar will help with battery charging but for now I am assuming a very cloudy day. I also need to find out if I can charge our laptops with 12V available during driving. I am also not sure even if alternator is capable of generating enough current will our machine will be able to charge quickly with 12V available during driving.
I think with two batteries we should be fine if we drive daily and if I add two more AGM batteries it will last us for two days and beyond that if do not want to drive, then we will need to run generator. All this is just based on calculations, guess I will find out soon when rubber hit the road :-)
If you are wondering, beside charging laptops and cell phones, other biggest consumption is coming from Bipap which would be close to 35ah but guess if push come .. I can turn off humidifier and heated tube to save energy.
PS: In this thread there was some discussion about solar cost .. for home solar panels, Tesla recently reduced prices and with all federal and NJ credits, price is around $1.5/KW installed. Of course battery technology for entire home is still pretty expensive.
Thanks
Muhammad, at 130 ah you are in the neighborhood of my daily consumption. I use a BiPAP all night, every night. I use a Mac for a lot of hours per day. I use a Quasar TV for at least 6 hours per day. I use a Dishnetwork Hopper DVR for 24 hours per day. Incidental other uses are charging my phone every few days, charging my iPad every few days, running my inverter, a coffee grinder, and lights. In the morning, my 6 AGM batteries are at about 80%,needing about 110 to 120 ah to recharge. My usage sounds higher than yours, so your estimate may be a bit high, but let's assume you are on target.
When I am traveling, 6 days in the spring, 5 days in the early summer, and 5 days in the fall, those 4 hour days using the engine's alternator keep my battery bank at 100%. When I am parked, the rest of the time, my panels (5 AM100 panels) will fully charge my 6 batteries on full sun days, Wyoming area, from Memorial Day to Labor Day. Outside that time frame or weather, I need to add some generator time, up to 90 minutes mid-winter in New Mexico, or more on a cloudy or rainy day.
If you are traveling 4 hours a day, every day, your alternator will probably keep your batteries charged. Of greater concern to me than the recharging is your battery drain. I may have missed something, but it sounds like you will be drawing your two batteries way down. Drawing to 50% repeatedly will dramatically shorten battery life.
Ken F in WY, 2 PM, with my batteries approaching 100%, 1 hour to go.
Thanks Ken. Information about alternator is informative and new chassis comes with bigger alternator which is a bonus. You are right about conservative estimate, it is by design. I am using BiPaP for 20+ years and I don't think I slept without it since then .. no need to take any risk there .. I do remember you recently upgraded to Lithium which I think can take more current for charging and my result may differ but for now I am happy with your input. I am aware of discharge level and life expectancy and will work towards 70% goal after judging the system.
If I had a choice, I would have asked LD to not put any batteries or solar panels and take new motor home for upgrade right after delivery. Now that I paid for the system I will just add two AGM identical batteries and enjoy it for few years. Second reason for my calculation was to judge the bottleneck. It does not make sense to add batteries if I can not charge additional batteries without running generator. I will not rush to add two additional batteries but I think two solar panels with expected driving and reasonable generator usage should support charging 440 ah AGM batteries in future.
Thanks Ken, input is useful.
Regards,
"I will not rush to add two additional batteries but I think two solar panels with expected driving and reasonable generator usage should support charging 440 ah AGM batteries in future."
I have, in my 2004 30'IB, two AGM batterys, 3 100w solar panels. I find this arrangement to be more than capable with reasonable use. Most sunny days I will be at 100% before noon, whether I'm camped or not, rain and snow exempted! ;)
If the batteries are down a 130-amp/hours in the morning, and your rig only has the stock two 6-volt batteries, they are being discharged much too deeply for a decent life span. You need at least four of the 6-volt batteries or a 300-amp/hour lithium battery.
On a clear summer day, our LD's 500-watts of solar can replaced a 120-amp/hours while supplying power for the radio and refrigerator. On a cloudy summer day, which we have had a lot of this summer in the Sierras, about a third of that.
It's the lack of solar in the late fall, winter, and early spring that challenges the batteries and can require lengthy generator runs.
Installing a larger converter can shorten generator run time as well as installing as many solar panels as possible.
If the engine and/or generator is going to be a major source of battery charging, lithium's ability to keep charging at high rates until nearly filled is worth considering. AGM and lead-acid batteries charge rates drop as they are recharged, replacing the last 10-20% percent of charge can take hours.
Some machine users carry a separate, backup battery pack, good for one night, used if the coach battery system is dead or has problems.
Larry
"I will not rush to add two additional batteries but I think two solar panels with expected driving and reasonable generator usage should support charging 440 ah AGM batteries in future."
I have, in my 2004 30'IB, two AGM batterys, 3 100w solar panels. I find this arrangement to be more than capable with reasonable use. Most sunny days I will be at 100% before noon, whether I'm camped or not, rain and snow exempted! ;)
Thanks. Good information. We do not need more power compared to an average couple. Your empirical data support my calculations.
Issue is BiPaP which include a humidifier and a heated tube. Heated tube is a recent addition, I used to have a covering on a regular tube to reduce condensation and if need be I can easily go back low tech solution. As for humidifier, it is also a lifestyle issue instead of medical need and I can turn down humidifier as well. As Larry said perhaps a separate integrated battery pack and inverter can solve it. But then I will always have to remember to charge portable pack which take me to Larry's other suggesting to add two more batteries. Toad told me that I can place two additional batteries under the fridge and location is close to outside battery compartment as well.
I will simply wait few weeks to understand if any modification is needed and if yes then what.
Thanks team, I got enough information to move fast at right time.
Regards,
..
Installing a larger converter can shorten generator run time as well as installing as many solar panels as possible.
....
Larry,
Thanks for the help.
I am not sure if I will be successful but plan is to stay away from 110 appliances. Even for microwave, if we do not have shore power or we cannot use generator, I know we will be very happy with propane stove. BiPaP is 24V and I already purchased 12V to 24V converter, does not make sense to waste energy on conversion twice. At this point we are happy that we will have the luxury of home when we will travel, a big jump from what we are used to.
Regards,
"Issue is BiPaP which include a humidifier and a heated tube. Heated tube is a recent addition, I used to have a covering on a regular tube to reduce condensation and if need be I can easily go back low tech solution."
We put a fleece tube around our C-PAP hose. I used a handy dandy, ready-made fleece neck scarf and just whipped the two long sides together. It has worked well since 2006 - no electricity needed!
Virtual hugs,
Judie
Muhammad, If you plan on adding two additional Lifeline AGM batteries it would would be better earlier than later. One doesn't want to mix batteries of different ages as I have learned from others on this forum.
Mike,
Absolutely, I do not want to mix and match batteries and your suggestion is the easiest option but then practicality .... I understand these batteries are heavy and I cannot order them in advance and carry with me. I am not sure if these batteries have liquid market and I can go to any auto shop and buy these batteries right after getting motor home delivery. Then there is installation, battery connections are straight forward but getting right size wires with right connection (and tools) and wire putting hole(s) in brand new motorhome :-( and securing batteries. Even if I surpass all these hurdles, AGM batteries are heavy and with my back (I do have morphine pump installed under my skin for back issues), I will not take the risk especially when we are planning to spend few months on the road. This beg me to ask, how can I find reputable place close to Vegas who can install new batteries if I can give them advance notice?
I was also thinking about responses here and looked at my 50% rate of discharge assumption. If I stay at 75%, this give about 55amh. If I can charge two laptops and cell phones while we are driving or when solar is producing more then battery can take and modify BiPaP usage then perhaps between Fridge, lights, sensors, water pump, TV and water pump we should be fine with two batteries. If I have a choice, I will still like to put two batteries as they are not expensive and will provide peace of mind. I also asked Toad to put in bigger batteries from the same vendor and of course request was denied.
As for monitoring the battery, assuming that I do not have battery monitor, is taking the voltmeter out to the batteries is the only option to check charge level? Do solar panel show the volts, are these volts good indicator, I assume panel will show the volt applied to the battery which should be higher. I guess solar panel can also how the current going in the battery, can this information can be used any way to find battery charge level?
I will not mind going out with a voltmeter as this will be only for few days. Our consumption will not change from day to day basis. I got these volt to charge level correlation on interest, are these good indicators for stock AGM batteries?
12.65 / 100%
12.47 / 75%
12.34 / 50%
12.24 / 25%
11.89 / 0%
I want to again thank this kind group to take time and help.
Regards,
We put a fleece tube around our C-PAP hose.
Judie,
Agree.
I had this arrangement between 1999 - 2017 and works like a charm. For the first year of BiPaP usage, I had no idea why I was getting so much water on my face and continue to wake up every couple of hours. There was not much information on the internet on this topic then and took me a while to figure it out. I do agree, in this case, new technology has only cosmetic impact, fleece tube cover achieve the same result. I also read that one of the vendor spent millions creating electric tubes :-) and as for any medical equipment, this solution is bit expensive and though insurance cover it all of us are paying indirectly.
PS: Not sure you do remember our email exchange couple of years when I was deciding between LazyDaze and Sportsmobile.
Be well.
"PS: Not sure you do remember our email exchange couple of years when I was deciding between LazyDaze and Sportsmobile."
Indeed I do. It was almost exactly two years ago -circa 9/18/18. Hope my words helped you in your decision. Always pleased to pass along what I know!!!
Virtual hugs,
Judie
Of course it did. Could not have gone wrong with Sportsmobile either. Both of them are nice vendors and nice products but for different segments.
Hi Muhammed; The voltage displayed on your solar controller is a good digital meter. The voltages are skewed high with sunlight charging the batteries. After sundown, the battery voltage displayed will be more realistic. There will still be some surface charge just after the charger quits, but having a load like a few lights on will result in a good reading. A handheld meter will have the same issues. I always travel with a small DVM for other troubleshooting, but that's what I did for a living.
The batteries you add don't have to be identical, but ask Lazy Daze if they will sell you two more. They do have them in stock. All four would be the same age. maybe even the same lot#. AGM batteries are WLA, Wet Lead Acid, and yes they are full of liquid sulfuric acid. They are however sealed and won't leak. Lazy Daze's prices are usually reasonable. And they will probably load them in the cabinet you specify. If you pay them a little extra, I'd see if Todd would actually have them installed for you in parallel with the other bank. As far as I've heard, the batteries don't move around much. A strap around both will probably keep them in one place under the refrigerator. You can buy pre-made battery cables. They will only be a foot or so from the other ones. Tell them you are taking a slow route back to New Jersey and you are concerned about the CPap power drain. You can of course stop at campgrounds with full hookups alternate nights. The batteries are new, and the new chassis has a 210 amp alternator. Thats over 3 kilowatts. Remember the generator is only 4 kilowatts.
I doubt that you will need to run the generator at all. It is almost exclusively for the microwave and the roof air conditioner. The solar will keep things good until you get far north, the days are shorter, and bad weather limits solar. That is when you will need the generator. RonB
Thanks Ron.
I did not think of asking LD for help, I will follow up. I will be very happy if battery can be loaded on the motorhome. As for your comment about reasonable price, in my very little experience so far, I don't think Todd or his team is after the money, they just want to do the right job.
As for full hook up sites, we are new to this type of travelling. Initially I will prefer to stay on full hook sites and concentrate on understanding the systems and make this transition easy for us.
Take care,
I am in the process of evaluating this bad boy Jackery 1000 (https://www.jackery.com/products/explorer-1000-portable-power-station).
In a few week I'll share my thoughts.
glen
I am in the process of evaluating this bad boy Jackery 1000 (https://www.jackery.com/products/explorer-1000-portable-power-station).
In a few week I'll share my thoughts.
glen
Does this mean you've bought one, Glen?
Chris
Muhammad, What Ron said about watching your battery voltage on the solar panel is all I ever did. If LD can't install your extra batteries, wait until you return home as the two Lifeline original batteries will see you through your trip ok. Once you are home you will have the time to easily decide what direction to take with additional batteries. With my previous LD I had added two additional Lifeline batteries and never had a low power problem while boondocking which we did a lot of. Two solar panels came with our motorhome. By the way, you are dealing with Todd at the LD factory, not Toad. We look forward to hearing about your return home trip when the time comes.
I am in the process of evaluating this bad boy Jackery 1000 (https://www.jackery.com/products/explorer-1000-portable-power-station).
Just a note to those considering a portable powerstation purchase (PPP?); your local power company may offer a rebate. Ours does here in SoCal:
Southern California Edison (https://marketplace.sce.com/portable-power-stations/)
Muhammad, What Ron said about watching your battery voltage on the solar panel is all I ever did. If LD can't install your extra batteries, wait until you return home as the two Lifeline original batteries will see you through your trip ok. Once you are home you will have the time to easily decide what direction to take with additional batteries. With my previous LD I had added two additional Lifeline batteries and never had a low power problem while boondocking which we did a lot of. Two solar panels came with our motorhome. By the way, you are dealing with Todd at the LD factory, not Toad. We look forward to hearing about your return home trip when the time comes.
Toad is now Todd. :)
"Just a note to those considering a portable powerstation purchase (PPP?); your local power company may offer a rebate. Ours does here in SoCal:
Southern California Edison"
As an avid proponent and user of remote battery power for all of my iOS and computer needs, I would jump on the $50. off of the small Jackery unit, bringing the cost down to $100.00 - a nice percentage of discount. As it stands now, I juggle about eight different smaller units that are measured in mA's, but fit into my purse, or hospital overnight bags.
I would love to have one of the Jackery models to experiment with. Can you tell if this offer is good for folks not acquiring electrical needs from Southern California Edison?
Virtual hugs,
Judie
Judie, I believe it’s only for SCE customers but your local power company may have a similar deal. I’ve been thinking about getting one as well!
ask Lazy Daze if they will sell you two more. They do have them in stock. All four would be the same age. maybe even the same lot#. watts.
In the past, new LD owners have shown up at my place for immediate upgrading and have bought two extra AGM batterie from LD that match the Factory batteries.
In a MB, the extra batteries are installed under the refrigerator, next to the battery box, making the running of new battery cable a relatively easy project.
All it takes are three cables and a battery tie-down method.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/5762/22038311125_7b55732e50_w.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/588/22012116216_5a3fa75b3c_w.jpg)
This would also be a good time to install a battery capacity monitor, for tracking usage and depth of discharge.
Victron Energy Battery Monitor BMV-700 (https://www.invertersupply.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=185856&utm_source=bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=invertersupply%20-%20shopping&utm_term=4584894771909539&utm_content=Product%20Listing%20Ads)
Larry
Larry,
Can you tell where in a RB is the best place to install two additional batteries? I'm probably going to be doing the upgrade to mine.
Linda
Can you tell where in a RB is the best place to install two additional batteries? I'm probably going to be doing the upgrade to mine.
In a Rear Bath, extra batteries are located under the forward dinette seat, it's located near the battery box for easier connections. Some mount all the batteries under the seat and use the battery box for storage.
Larry
Just want to put a closure on this discussion .. LazyDaze do sell spare batteries at delivery time. This will make it very easy for me.
Ron, Thanks for the suggesting this path.
Larry, Thanks for sharing the picture. Seems like a simple task to add batteries in MB. Just need to find three right size battery wires from some auto part place at some convenient stop.
PS: There are some current supply chain issues, our delivery date is delayed, not sure how long but this is expected in current environment.
Regards,
We bought 1 grape solar panel from Home Depot (I think we paid $120 2 years ago) and almost as much for an mmpt controller. The combo provides us with lots of juice Spring-fall. We hook it up free standing, so we can put it in a sunny spot as many East coast campsites have a lots of trees. It’s not a pretty set up (as we lug it in and out of trailer for travel on our bed), but much more economical than zamp
I am in the process of evaluating this bad boy Jackery 1000 (https://www.jackery.com/products/explorer-1000-portable-power-station).
In a few week I'll share my thoughts.
glen
Here's a review: Jackery Portable Power Station: Product Review (https://camperreport.com/jackery-portable-power-station/)
Chris
A few things about that review struck me. First, I have to say that those people treat their RV as if it were an all-electric townhouse. They normally run their generator six hours a day, but with the help of the Jackery powerpack were able to cut that down to "only" three hours a day?? Heaven forbid they should ever camp near me!
Second, the 1,000 watt-hour Jackery powerpack (https://www.amazon.com/Jackery-Portable-Explorer-Generator-Emergency/dp/B083KBKJ8Q/ref=sr_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=jackery+1000&qid=1599935638&sr=8-3) costs $1,600 for those of us not lucky enough to get one for free from Jackery. I suspect the review might not have been quite so enthusiastic if they had actually had to lay out $1,600 for the unit.
That amount would buy quite a nice solar power system installed on your RV, where it would take advantage of the existing battery, charger, inverter, and so on. In fact, if you do it yourself, about $400-$500 in parts would buy you a 200 watt solar power system, and for another $200 you could have 400 W. Add another $200 for a pure sine wave inverter, if you don't feel satisfied with the one you have. You're still only at half the price of the Jackery 1000, and you have twice the amount of solar power. Even if you have it professionally installed, you can probably match the Jackery's $1,600 cost and get more for your money.
Third, Jackery's portable solar panels (not cheap at $299 for 100 watts) are not waterproof, so if it rains you're going to have to scramble to bring them in, as the reviewer did... and you'd better not leave them outside while you go off sightseeing, in case there's a sudden shower. Frankly, there's no excuse for this in a high-priced product that is meant to be used outdoors.
Sounds as if I'm down on Jackery and dismissive of portable powerpacks, right? Well, no. For starters, I've used smaller Jackery phone/tablet charger powerpacks, and they appeared to be well made and worked well. I certainly had no complaints. And the Jackery 500 and Jackery 1000 products have a very nice set of features. There are plenty of similar products on the market today, but if I were shopping for something like this, the Jackery units would be high on my list.
So... why would I shop for one of these? As a full-time RVer, I prefer a single unified power system, based on what's already in my RV, rather than carrying my power in multiple buckets. It's simpler, and as mentioned, more cost-effective.
But suppose I were tent camping out of my car, or traveling in a van. A portable powerpack could be a great, ready-to-use solution for all my power needs. Or what if I had a homebase--a house or apartment? A 1,000 Wh powerpack could get me through a power blackout due to a storm, rolling blackout, or whatever. Granted, if I had my RV parked in the driveway, it could do the same job. But if, as is often the case, the rig were miles away in storage, I'd be happy to have a compact power source for emergency use.
I would not, however, buy Jackery's solar panels. There are better choices from Renogy (https://www.amazon.com/RENOGY-Foldable-Suitcase-Without-Controller/dp/B00LXG4AXS/ref=sr_1_2?dchild=1&keywords=renogy+portable+100&qid=1599937598&sr=8-2) and others.
In summary, Jackery makes good products, but it's up to you to decide whether they are the best and most cost-effective fit for your needs.
Reminds me of this, https://www.costco.com/3-in-1-1000amp-cat-power-station-with-jump-starter-%2526-compressor.product.100672966.html
I got it from Costco last year for $99
My thoughts and personal justifications.
What the stock TK comes with
No inverter
Two Lifeline 6v batteries wired in series for 12v at 220 Amp/hours that gives about 2640 watts at 50% use that comes out at about 1320 watts of useful dc power
(As aside this number is only good on day one - eah year it drop a few percent)
Two 100 watt AM Solar Panels. At 70% useful output that takes us to 140 watts.
(As an aside that takes about 9.5 hours to recharge from 50%. 1320/140 = about 9.5 hours).
Jakery Explorer 1000 (https://www.jackery.com/collections/featured-products/products/explorer-1000-portable-power-station)
Cost $1000
Full wave inverter
1000 watts that can be use down to 20% -- ie useful AC 800 watts
This setup is NOT an attempt to live 100% of the time with ac or even close. What I'm trying to do is add a extra path so we can, at times, use a pressure cooker, fans, and recharge assorted items. <smile> 800 watts of loving AC power. As an added bonus you can charge the Jackery from a car outlet as we are driving here and there.
Is Jackery the answer for everybody, no. My system is basically glue and rubber bands. I agree this is a great solution for van/car campers.
Below are random pick components priced out for comps .....
Two Rich Solar 100 Watt (https://www.amazon.com/Richsolar-Monocrystalline-Connectors-Battery-Charging/dp/B07DNMY6N4/ref=sxin_9_ac_d_rm?ac_md=3-2-MTAwIHdhdHQgc29sYXIgcGFuZWwgbW9ub2NyeXN0YWxsaW4%3D-ac_d_rm&crid=2C7CUJHWCJSDA&cv_ct_cx=100+watt+solar+panel&dchild=1&keywords=100+watt+solar+panel&pd_rd_i=B07DNMY6N4&pd_rd_r=4ef8238a-2193-4803-be4a-5224d1933370&pd_rd_w=iJZTM&pd_rd_wg=ql6nD&pf_rd_p=fe2d64f9-a0d4-4c62-b195-55e240bc5b7e&pf_rd_r=7X6Q7NKY8XA8B5MTJSPM&psc=1&qid=1599946197&sprefix=100+watt%2Caps%2C229&sr=1-3-12d4272d-8adb-4121-8624-135149aa9081) = about $180
One Renogy 1000W Invertor (https://www.amazon.com/Renogy-1000W-Solar-Inverter-Cabin/dp/B07JMQ27WJ/ref=sr_1_17?crid=2Y0MHGJRMB4CM&dchild=1&keywords=inverter+12v+to+110v+pure+sine+wave&qid=1599946326&s=lawn-garden&sprefix=inverter%2Clawngarden%2C273&sr=1-17) = about $170
One Renogy Li 12v 100Ah (https://www.amazon.com/Renogy-100Ah-Lithium-Phosphate-Battery/dp/B07YXL2TC7/ref=sr_1_6?crid=3A97UQTV6MOYJ&dchild=1&keywords=lithium+12v+battery+100ah&qid=1599946574&sprefix=lithum+12%2Clawngarden%2C250&sr=8-6) = about $900
One EPEVER MPPT convertor (https://www.amazon.com/EPEVER-Controller-Regulator-Negative-Grounded/dp/B07MM4CG9D/ref=sr_1_4?crid=GKJO0WUVHQB7&dchild=1&keywords=mppt+charge+controller+30+amp&qid=1599947152&sprefix=mppt+charge+controller%2Caps%2C282&sr=8-4) about $170
glen
..
In a MB, the extra batteries are installed under the refrigerator, next to the battery box, making the running of new battery cable a relatively easy project.
All it takes are three cables and a battery tie-down method.
This would also be a good time to install a battery capacity monitor...
Larry
Battery monitor BMV-712 has Bluetooth, guess I can leave the monitor in the battery compartment and watch/set the system using my phone. This will make the installation easier. Installing the battery monitory at the same time will need four wires and I will be getting wires from RV – Tagged "Category_Battery Terminals" – Genuine Dealz (https://www.genuinedealz.com/collections/rv/category_battery-terminals) (thanks Andy). I have two questions for the wires ..
1) How long these wires should be. I can guestimate for the wire length for the two new batteries series connection but I am not sure about the length of the two wire going crossing the partition for parallel connection and one wire connecting to the shunt. Do battery tray slides out? I know 2 AWG wire may be an over kill but this is what I will be going with.
2) I know shunt connection is bigger then battery terminal. Anybody know which type of connector do I need for shunt ?
Thanks
Battery monitor BMV-712 has Bluetooth, guess I can leave the monitor in the battery compartment and watch/set the system using my phone. This will make the installation easier. Installing the battery monitory at the same time will need four wires and I will be getting wires from RV – Tagged "Category_Battery Terminals" – Genuine Dealz (https://www.genuinedealz.com/collections/rv/category_battery-terminals) (thanks Andy). I have two questions for the wires ..
1) How long these wires should be. I can guestimate for the wire length for the two new batteries series connection but I am not sure about the length of the two wire going crossing the partition for parallel connection and one wire connecting to the shunt. Do battery tray slides out? I know 2 AWG wire may be an over kill but this is what I will be going with.
2) I know shunt connection is bigger then battery terminal. Anybody know which type of connector do I need for shunt ?
The battery cable length needs to be measured with the extra batteries in place, the custom cables can be ordered or made up.
Photo of extra batteries in a MB.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/5762/22038311125_7b55732e50_w.jpg)[/url]
(https://live.staticflickr.com/588/22012116216_5a3fa75b3c_w.jpg)
The battery meter shunt is connected to the negative side of the coach battery, using another battery cable, the same gauge size of the rest of the battery cables.
Larry
I believe the question Muhammad is asking is "What is the diameter of the bolts/terminals on the Victron shunt?" This information is needed so that he can specify the correct lugs when asking GenuinedealZ to make up cables. I'm going to guess it's 3/8", but I don't have easy access to my shunt, so it would be helpful if someone could verify the size.
By the way, the factory-installed battery tray does slide out, so you'll want to allow enough slack in your cables for that. The question is how far. I no longer have a Lazy Daze, so I can't answer that, but I'm sure someone here can.
Or has LD stopped using the slideout tray now that they're installing maintenance-free AGM batteries? When I upgraded my midbath, I removed the tray, so I made my cables to length with very little extra. (Be sure to include the length of the lugs when figuring cable lengths.)
Thanks Andy.
I did some research before sending the earlier message and I think battery terminal is M8 and shunt is M10 size. I need some confirmation.
As for length of wires, two wires across the partition to create parallel scenario will be 2 X battery length (assuming worst position of the battery) plus 6 inches. Battery is 10.3 inch long so I think I need 25 inches and putting some fudge it should be 30 inch. My research shows that LD stop using slide after using AGM batteries but I have sent a message to LazyDaze. Will appreciate getting some confirmation.
Battery is 7.1inch wide, so the wire connecting two new batteries in series will be at least 12 inches (assuming diagonal connection). Putting some fudge it should be 15 inches. Then last wire to shunt, not sure how close I can put shunt, I think 15 inch should be fine.
Though I have lot of technical background but am lacking hands on experience. I am not sure how flexible these wires are, can I manage longer wires? If answer is no, then this discussion is mute and I will simply buy a cheap hydraulic clipper, wires and connections and will create the right size wires in real time but this is not a desirable option for me. Job will be much faster and simpler if I can get the wires in advance.
Regards,
Edit: No response needed. I priced all wires and they are not expensive, I will simply order them with my guestimates and If wires are too long or short, I will worry about them latter.
My research shows that LD stop using slide after using AGM batteries but I have sent a message to LazyDaze. Will appreciate getting some confirmation.
Muhammad, LD stopped using slide out trays in 2010 when they went to AGM batteries.
How do the AGM’s compare to the old Trojan T-105‘s weight-wise?
Hi Greg; The T-105 are 62 pounds each. The Lifeline GPL-4CT are 66 pounds each. BattleBorn 100 Ah 12v is 31 pounds each. RonB
Hi Greg; The T-105 are 62 pounds each. The Lifeline GPL-4CT are 66 pounds each. BattleBorn 100 Ah 12v is 31 pounds each. RonB
Thanks, Ron. I’m assuming the Battleborn are lithium?
Greg,
I think better comparison would be 1ah per pound. Lithium 100ah battery will yield 90ah usable energy => 90/32 around 3ah/pound. On the other hand 110 ah rated AGM will yield 110*.2 which is 22ah. Using our calculation AGM will be 22/66 or one third ah/pound. Lithium ah/pound is around 9 times :-) I am not even counting space, longevity and charging ... price is right and technology is proven, I think LazyDaze should be moving to Lithium soon but then available carrying capacity and space (compared to van) there is no urgency.
Cheers
"I think LazyDaze should be moving to Lithium soon..."
----
Well...... At LD, "soon" can be a moving target. ;)
I may have missed this in past post but has anyone done a total 12VDC system conversion to lithium batteries in their LD motorhome? This would include the proper converter, solar panel hookup and engine alternator charging compatibility. Curious minds are inquiring.
Mike,
I recently had AM Solar do exactly that. I even went so far as to remove the two original Zamp 100 watt panels LD installed on our ‘15 RB. I wanted all the panels to be as current a model as possible.
Everything electrical fits nicely below the two dinette seats.
Top side are 6 Zamp panels totaling nearly 800 watts. I also purchased a portable Zamp 230 watt portable.
Here’s a breakdown of all that was done.
Even with all that was done, and everything was set up in parallel, shade is your enemy. I can loose 10-15 % of the 5 lithium’s charge in a day. Yellowstone is very shady at Grant CG. That being said, draining the Battle Borns to 60% after several days was no problem for the genny to bring the bank back to 100% in about two hours.
On an overcast day with no shading of the panels and a drain down to 60-70%, the batts are back to 100% before 1:30 pm.
I’ve put the system through it’s paces since installation in July. Haven’t used the portable panel yet but I have little doubt it will pull its weight if deployed correctly.
Hope this helps.
Kent
Kent, many thanks for your response. How many BB batteries do you have and which size, the 100AH 12.75" X 6.8" X 9" (traditional size) or the 100AH GC2 10.3" X 7.1" X 11" battery? Are you using the LD original Parallax 3-stage converter and the Ford engine alternator for additional charging when needed? If you are using an inverter for more off-grid AC use how is that connected into the house wiring if so?
Kent meant 880 watts roof installed. With the 230 watt portable panels, over a kilowatt!
A 40% charge to full in two hours of generator use is great. The inverter charges at 120 Amps per hour, 24 Amps per battery, two hours is 48 watt hours per battery, and at 100 amp capacity, 48 is just over 40 watt hours. So that is pretty efficient also. RonB
Hi Mike,
I had 5 Battle Born 100 Ah lithium’s installed. I upgraded the lackluster and noisy inverter to a Victron 3000 VA inverter/charger. Far superior to the previously installed inverter.
To utilize the chassis alternator’s current for the lithium’s, I had the Victron Cyrix-Li-Ct relay installed to allow for the lithium’s different charge rate.
AM Solar connected all the components to utilize the LD’s breaker assembly. You’d have to contact them for further details. Overall it was a painless installation. Plung-In-Play for me.
All electrical outlets operate as if I was on shore power. The fridge can operate on the battery power or solar while in transit. That’s a perk that allows me to turn off the propane while heading down the road.
AM Solar and Battle Born has the specific measurements of the 100 Ah batteries. If you haven’t seen the install, here’s a pic of the batteries and other electronics mounted below the rearward dinette seat.
The inverter/charger is mounted by itself below the forward seat. AM Solar vented
The area into the coach.
Hope this answers your questions. Glad to provide more details if I can.
Kent
Thank you Kent. I’m only in the thinking stage now about an upgrade. If I do, it probably won’t be as elaborate as yours. Time will tell. We will be heading west Wed. to take delivery of the new coach in Ehrenberg on the 24th. It will be good to be on the road again.
Enjoy your journey. After months of lockdown, I have trips booked through November.
Feels great to be out and about.
Kent
Enjoy your journey
Thanks Kent, it will be an interesting trip across the country from Florida. We start tomorrow. Originally we were taking I-10 all the way to AZ and had hotel reservations in Lake Charles. Due to the hurricane damage to the hotel it was also very close to the burning chemical plant. In addition, I-10 westbound is closed there until late October. We changed our route to I-20 however now hurricane Sally will be passing through Alabama when we go that way to I-20. We will be driving a rental box truck with all the equipment & supplies removed from our previous rear bath. That should be fun driving in the coming weather.
Battery Born or any Lithium type batteries are just a drop with the Blue Sky controller LD is installing these days. Adding more solar panels will cause a upgrade of controller because of open voltage/amp output.
glen
Lithium battery may have issues with charging during weather which can be overcome by intelligent BMS (Battery Management System) ... just no firsthand experience.