Good morning; we have a 2005 fl and the wife has a window issue. the coach is very nice in and out with the exception of the rear window or at least its the worst. The window has stains where the water has ran down the window in streaks here and there and they will NOT come out. we talked to a couple in Delores Colorado this summer that said there coach had that problem so they replaced the window. There has to be a better answer than replacing the window. What kind of miracle cleaner is there out there that will work and make my wife happy. You know happy wife happy life . LOL>
Thanks for any tips she has tried all the things she knows and not found any answer.
Grumpy
Are you sure the stains aren't on the inside of the window?
A coach from that era (like mine) probably has 1 or more 'foggy windows' where the seal between the 2 glass panes has failed and moisture is now trapped in the middle. In the beginning, this can look like a general fog or even streaks.
The large rear window seal is often the first to go.
If your streaks are on the outside, try something mildly acidic like vinegar or lemon. Light scrubbing with baking soda (slightly basic) might also be worth a try.
Good Luck!
Rich
'03 MB in NC
thanks Rich now the next question if its on the middle not the in or out side of the glass what is the solution then?? New window??
Thanks very much
Grumpy
Esther and Jim
now the next question if its on the middle not the in or out side of the glass what is the solution then?? New window??
At a handful of RV window shops, the windows can be disassembled, cleaned and reassembled, with new rubber, for around $500 a window.
It's the curse of the dual pane, insulated windows.
Larry
thanks Larry; I shall proceed to convince the wife it is the in thing to have: :-) Cant see the minor flaw being worth 500 and besides its just about the only thing wrong with the little one.
thanks grumpy;
The problem is common on lots of RVs since many use the same window supplier.
Some of the places I know about that advertise repairs:
RV Glass Repair Services | | Quality Side Glass Replacement for RV's (https://rvglassrepairservices.com)
Suncoast Designers | RV Window Repair Specialists in Hudson, FL (https://suncoastdesigners.com)
Expert Nationwide RV Windshield and Window Replacement | RV Glass Solutions (https://www.rvglassexperts.com)
Read reviews carefully, especially any that pertain particularly to Lazy Daze windows. My understanding is that our windows can be substantially more difficult to remove than the same windows installed in other brands. That can lead to frustration, extra job time/costs, or even damage.
There are many threads in the archives, like these:
My experience with 4 Window replacements at RV Glass Solution in OR (https://www.lazydazeowners.com/index.php?topic=32402.msg193878#msg193878)
Fogged Windows (https://www.lazydazeowners.com/index.php?topic=30357.msg173940#msg173940)
Fogged Windows/Window Replacement (https://www.lazydazeowners.com/index.php?topic=28314.msg155854#msg155854)
Rich
'03 MB in NC
At a handful of RV window shops, the windows can be disassembled, cleaned and reassembled, with new rubber, for around $500 a window.
It's the curse of the dual pane, insulated windows.
Larry
Larry, would you or anyone else recommend replacing the dual pane if you're going to get them serviced for fog anyways? Do they provide enough benefit to warrant the headache?
Our 2003 LD 26.5 with Cracked front upper Cab Window. Not leaking at the moment.
2002 LD used Laminated windows and was the last year before the switch to Thermopane windows according to the factory information.
Phoned NAGCO Glass and they confirmed that 2003 LD and newer have the Thermopane Style (Air Gap) windows.
NAGCO is unable to obtain the Thermopane Windows from their supplier, and no idea when that may change.
NAGCO does have the Laminated Window.
Can I have them install the Laminated window in lieu of the Thermopane.
Would it fit? Would it look different and change the appearance of the coach? Am I insane even thinking about doing such a thing?
Or thoroughly calk/seal the cracked window and wait for Thermopane Windows to return to the supply chain.
My brothers and sisters - appear that all 2003 and newer LD suffer the same fate.
Respectfully,
Tony R. aka (codefour)
Are both panes of glass cracked or only one?
A temporary or next to permanent fix may be sealing the crack with a clear automotive paint protection tape.
3M sells tape made for long-term use for protecting the leading edges of hoods and other car parts.
The tape will seal the crack, be almost invisible and will last many years.
The tape can also be used to cover sideways cracks in the end caps.
Amazon.com: VViViD 3M Clear Paint Protection Vinyl Film 4 Inch Wide Choose... (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01LYZJNWX?tag=duckduckgo-osx-20&linkCode=osi&th=1&psc=1)
Larry
Thanks for the suggestion Larry.
I will order a roll of your suggested tape now.
The other issue is my original question. And this is truly an issue for every LD 2003 forward.
Can I replace the cracked air gap window with a laminated one, instead of the Air Gap style?
I really didn't ask NAGCO if they have done this in the past. One of those laminated window replacements cost $433.70. Labor and Material as I understand.
I will contact NAGCO tomorrow and ask if the laminated window would install correctly, and would the tint match the existing un-broken one. When viewed from the front, would they match? Period!
Terrible choices - all.
Tony (aka) codefour
Only the dealer can tell you if the window will fit, look the same and be the correct color.
Enquire if thinner, traditional safety glass can be installed in the existing frame, along with a spacer.
It can be hard to get the correct color of glass.
Larry
Do NOT under any circumstances use Sun Coast in Florida. Unless you want your rig damaged.
For what it's worth: one section of my right overcab window was damaged quite a few years ago in an unfortunate encounter with a tree branch. Only the outer pane was broken, leaving the inner pane intact. As a temporary measure, I carefully removed all the glass from that outer pane. And...
I never got around to replacing it. It never leaked, and since I kept those windows covered to darken the "upstairs bedroom," the difference in tint didn't bother me. It wasn't noticeable from the outside unless you looked for it. In short, I forgot all about it for the rest of the time I owned the coach.
I'm not saying anybody else should do likewise; just recounting my experience.
Greetings from newbie in Ala....
I'm restoring a 04 26MB I picked up a few months back. I've been restoring old muscle cars for 40 years as a hobby. So, not much I'm bashful to attempt, except these Foggy windows. After researching this for days on end and reading the reviews, most negative for our friends down in Florida, is there any other place known in the Southeast or just east coast. Not afraid of driving somewhere as I just returned from Michigan getting Big Foot Levelers installed. With Phoenix or Oregon who come recommended being ~2000 miles away, it would really be nice to find something a bit closer.
Information from phone calls made this week:
RVS Glass repair - discourages folks from trying to defog now and say they will charge the same price as replacing. For replacement they want a template in advance so they can have the glass cut and ready to go upon arrival... est. ~$800 per unit
Suncoast... only negative reviews on here....Has anyone had a good experience with them? Scratched paint I'm not worried about, but bent window frames, no seal between frame and outer skin..that bothers me.
RV Glass Solutions - They are now est/asking $500 a window unit, but not certain if the Florida facility can do it.
So...anything new on the subject would be good. I'd like to get them done before I paint the coach...as someone already wrote, it would appear all of us with post 2003 models have or will have this problem....
ps. For home owners, there is another option where folks are drilling a hole in the upper/lower opposite corner of the window and cleaning them with a solution spray between the window panes and using a vacuum system to extract the moisture. If someone did not need to make elevation changes, it might be an option... wonder if any DIY'ers have tried this with success? DOT might not like it either.
Greetings from newbie in Ala....
I'm restoring a 04 26MB I picked up a few months back. I've been restoring old muscle cars for 40 years as a hobby. So, not much I'm bashful to attempt, except these Foggy windows. After researching this for days on end and reading the reviews, most negative for our friends down in Florida, is there any other place known in the Southeast or just east coast. Not afraid of driving somewhere as I just returned from Michigan getting Big Foot Levelers installed. With Phoenix or Oregon who come recommended being ~2000 miles away, it would really be nice to find something a bit closer.
Information from phone calls made this week:
RVS Glass repair - discourages folks from trying to defog now and say they will charge the same price as replacing. For replacement they want a template in advance so they can have the glass cut and ready to go upon arrival... est. ~$800 per unit
Suncoast... only negative reviews on here....Has anyone had a good experience with them? Scratched paint I'm not worried about, but bent window frames, no seal between frame and outer skin..that bothers me.
RV Glass Solutions - They are now est/asking $500 a window unit, but not certain if the Florida facility can do it.
So...anything new on the subject would be good. I'd like to get them done before I paint the coach...as someone already wrote, it would appear all of us with post 2003 vintage have or will have this problem....
ps. For home owners, there is another option where folks are drilling a hole in the upper/lower corner of the window and cleaning them with a solution spray between the window panes and using a vacuum system to extract the moisture. If one were not to be make drastic elevation changes, it might be an option... wonder if any DIY'ers have tried this with success?
Welcome to LDOG, Robby. We hope you find an answer to your question. Perhaps you will share some restoration photos with us.
Chris
I plan to share. The interior was/is like new and about the only thing I'll do there is replace some of the cushioning material inside of the rear couches. It's like sitting on a brick. The coach was a low mileage unit from Cali and unfortunately was stored outside and baked in the sun, so the paint is shot on one side and ok on the other. The original owner kept good notes/records, just wished he had kept it under a cover. I've spent over a hundred hours cutting and polishing it three full times with the best products available and tp no avail within weeks it just hazes back up...
As with restoring old cars, I start with the Frame/suspension/mechanics. The chassis wasn't in bad shape, just 16 years old with surface rust and lots of grime. I replaced the old HD Bilsteins with the Bilstein Comfort Series, installed Hellwig sway bars front and back, and added the Roadmaster Steering Damper. That was the easy part..on the other hand, scrubbing, sanding, and painting the underside and trying to get in all the nooks and crannies was 1.5 month labor of love. Not every day, but most. As for the motor/mechanics...all fluids had been changed regularly, but I know V-10s...I changed out all the plugs and coil packs over to Denso and replaced the PVC valve and EGR hoses that had deteriorated located at the back of the motor. Also fixed the connector on top of the valve cover on the return air for the PVC. It had broken off at the base(more common than folks know)...JB Weld to the rescue..as they don't make the valve cover any longer. Running Lucas Fuel Additive for 2K miles. No more oil consumption (Zero) and running like a scolded dog. Went from 8 to 10 mpg running 65mph. No swaying in the wind or bein shoved around by semis and a much smoother ride. Honestly, she still likes cruzin at 62 and if I were patient enough would get even better mileage there.
Now I am ready to start with the paint/body....it's maroon and red. Will be ordering stripes and decals from the mothership, but will go to a base/clear coat vs. Urethane.. maybe a little a sparkle in there too.. :o
I just would like to get the windows done first.
Well, here's a teaser per request...
Repeating myself, Suncoast will damage your rig. They have fewer problems with other rigs, since the mfg does not seal the windows frames in like LD does.
You need a trip to the West Coast anyway.
Don,
I hear ya. Seriously considering that. Who would you recommend and do we know anyone with a LD that has had a recent good experience?
Robby
As usual, many questions can be answered in The Companion.
The Lazy Daze Companion: Fogged Windows (http://lazydazearticles.blogspot.com/search/label/Fogged%20Windows)
We used the Phoenix location of RV Glass Solutions. Their main location is in Coburg, OR.
They redid a window Suncoast did.
I would not go to Phoenix except in the winter.
Thanks for replying quickly. Yes, I've read those articles and why I referenced the poor work from my brothers down in Florida (refering to the Suncoast Review in several forums). I'm from Ft. Walton Beach. As for searching the thread for Lazy Daze and Foggy windows...I've read/watched to ad nauseam. As for the referenced above locations, I've called them all and then some. I will not/can not travel all the way to Oregon or Washington in the nearest future, especially with winter coming soon. I have researched all the ones written in the companion article, except Coach Specialist (weblink is broke by the way)...but I did call them and they actually do not do the repair, they only pull the window and send it to ProRV, a.k.a RV FogPro in Collierville, Tx Window Repair - Professional Sales RV - Your Preferred Texas RV Dealer (https://www.prorv.com/fog-window-repair/) (no direct references for LDs and a one man show) As for actual documented experience from LD owners, I can only find 3 separate references (Glass Solutions, LD and Suncoast), which seems a bit odd and why Larry has called on others to please post about this.
Maybe I need to get a better search engine. 8)
Again thank you for responding, I'm hoping others will start chiming in on their experiences with Fogged Windows.
Robby
I think you're not hearing a good response because none of us has found a good solution.
We can say, through extensive real world testing, that putting the problem off until next season works for multiple seasons :)
My eventual plan, unless new information comes to light, will be to remove and re-install the window myself. That seems to be where the problems lie. Once the window is out of the RV, it's just like every other Hehr (the window manufacturer) dual-pane window in the world.
Rich
I think you're not hearing a good response because none of us has found a good solution.
We can say, through extensive real world resting, that putting the problem off until next season works for multiple seasons :)
My eventual plan, unless new information comes to light, will be to remove and re-install the window myself. That seems to be where the problems lie. Once the window is out of the RV, it's just like every other Hehr (the window manufacturer) dual-pane window in the world.
Rich
"putting the problem off until next season works for multiple seasons" Which is exactly what I did for 2 seasons until 2 days ago. I had put a small strip of Eternabond over the endcap sealant failure until I could seal it. Huge mistake. Eternabond does not come off easily. Finally got it off with Goop and similar cleaners. Done deal.
Chris
You all are killin me! 8) ;D
FOUND A GREAT SOLUTION!!!!!! HEAR YE HEAR YE!!
So after fielding a few comments discerning the merits of procrastination and the potential abysmal outcome, I dug in and decided to get her done. Many more phone calls, chat rooms and discussions with every window "defogging" outfit and customer i could find. Up front, short of taking a trip to Arizona, where there was at least one positive note, the options seemed pretty grim. No more procrastinating or lectures.
I could find more information on who was doing the repairs on the Hehr windows and high end coaches than I could find for the Lazy Daze. That brought me to the door step of "ProRV" in Colleyville, Texas. Colleyville is a North Suburb of Dallas about 5 miles from the DFW airport. Actually, I was referred to ProRV by more than one source, including here in an earlier post recommending Coach Specialist. As I wrote earlier, Coach Specialist and other local Dallas Dealerships do the removal, but send the window repair, cleaning defogging to ProRV. So I drove to Colleyville, Tx, some 700 miles away and ProRV completed the whole process; removal, cleaning and installation.
Let's cut to the chase for those who do not want to read everything. ProRV was "AWESOME". I rarely use that term. I am over the top OCD and build "Show Cars" that have won trophies and accolades across the South East. I would recommend them to any Lazy Daze owner. Was it easy, NO! Had they done many Lazy Daze in the past, no, only one before me. Is getting your windows pulled out a risk, Oh Yeah! They are like glued in with a hidden sealant(maybe PL1) and most reputable shops will no longer touch them after a few failed attempts. I will write up much more later on the process and discoveries, but wanted to get this out there for those contemplating doing this before the winter sets in. The business is family owned and operated. I had the privilege to get to know many of the family members and there is absolutely nothing they won't do to make you comfortable and assist you in any way. They are honest, open and very very reasonably priced. They are the kind of folks my parents and grandparents before them, taught us kids how to be. Love your neighbor, do unto others as you'd have them do unto you....you get the message. I'll go into more detail of this great experience, but first let's post some photos.
ps. I never knew the windows had such a lovely dark blue-green hue like the Rayban sunglasses.
FOUND A GREAT SOLUTION!!!!!! HEAR YE HEAR YE!!
That brought me to the door step of "ProRV" in Colleyville, Texas. Actually, I was referred to this outfit by more than one source, including here in an earlier post recommending Coach Specialist. As I wrote earlier, this group does the removal, but the window repair, cleaning defogging is done by ProRV.
ps. I never knew the windows had such a lovely dark blue-green hue like the Rayban sunglasses.
Thanks for the report, good to hear a positive result.
So, ProRV only repairs the windows and will not do removals and installation?
I assume you had the windows removed at a local RV shop that shipped the windows to ProRV.
How long was the turnaround and how were they shipped? I would assume in some sort of box or frame.
Lastly, how did the shop remove the windows out without damaging the frames or aluminum siding?
I have thought about removing the windows myself and disassembling the frames and shipping just the glass or finding a shop that can manufacture new dual-pane glass.
Millions of dual-pane windows are made every year, wonder if there is a difference between residential and RV dual-pane windows, RV windows are subjected to higher levels of stress. Matching the tint color could be an issue.
Larry
So who removed the windows?
ProRV removed the windows and did the repair onsite, right where you see the photos taken. I will clarify that in my write-up and write up the process of removal, effort, installation...etc. I can also answer the questions regarding the option of replacing the windows and other questions as well. Give me a couple of hours.
ps. I would not recommend trying to do this yourself, unless you have at least two other people you trust with you during the extraction and insertion. Some of the video online are deceptive and make it look the windows just pull out with your hands and some gentle prying. Not the case for these bad boys in a Lazy Daze. The mothership did not intend on them coming out, ever.
Robby
Technical Discussion on the ProRV Removal, Cleaning and Installation of the Windows. and a few other details.
Every window in the coach was foggy, however, the wife and I decided to only do the 3 panoramic windows in the rear and the one over the dinette. As for the remaining windows our reasoning for not doing; bathroom we didn't particularly want it easier to see in/out and while sitting you are faced opposite of the window anyway. 8) , the window over the kitchen counter requires anyone over 5ft. 5 to bend over just to see out and the wife keeps the blinds closed anyway there, and finally the two windows in the cab-over area are never used, even by the kiddo.
Trip details.... Arrived on Sunday Night around 8:30. Dawn Cass, the manager over the Window Repair area provided me a code to open the main gate and I hooked up to an electrical outlet for the night. I talked with her at length as well as the Lead Technician, Jesus (pronounced Heysoos, not Jesus, our Lord and Savior). I was more than anxious and concerned about the potential damage extracting the windows. We started on Monday morning 9am and finished Thursday evening. Basically, Jesus and one assistant. I headed home on Friday morning. I stayed in a hotel about 4 miles away and rented a car. Dawn also has a small rental fleet of RVs and will be setting up a costing model for staying on one of those or renting one while you get your windows done. This is not a Suncoast drive through with a small army unscrewing and yanking the window out....damaging your coach in the process kind of deal.
Window Removal...This is and should be the topic of any LD owner to contemplate. Is it worth the risk? For me, as a perfectionist, it had to be done or sell the LD immediately. I stayed with the coach for a period of time while this was underway. When talking with Dawn and Jesus prior to arrival, I told them others in the LD world would be very interested and I would be documenting the experience for all to see. Plus, this was the first older LD with the Large windows in the rear and they welcomed my information on how they were double sealed and what to expect. Honestly, they were being nice to me understanding my anxiety of having someone else work on the coach and "Show Car" mentality. I am restoring this coach back to like new condition.. The techs were able to remove the inside rail without removing all the window dressing. Then we started with the outside seal(s). The original neoprene/foam gasket was hardened on the outside edges between the window and aluminum side. Jesus has a trick up his sleeve with heating the edge of painters tool and pushing it up through the seal till it hit the bottom of the frame. Carefully doing this for a 12" area and placing a pry bar with a wood board between it and the aluminum coach side, he carefully starting trying to pull the window frame away from the side of the coach. The side and the frame flexed just enough to get a razor blade knife to get to the inside PL1 seal. Now where that seal material was and where it is between the frame and the window opening is a mystery and was inconsistent. You cannot see up in there, nor is there such a razor blade device that can turn 90 degrees between the frame and the coach side. So this was a very very slow process, requiring lots of patience. Balancing how much force to avoid bending the frame or the coach side just enough to cut away the inner seal was the hardest thing to accomplish. LD did not plan for those windows to ever come out. So carefully repeating this and keeping a board between the window frame and side area and moving to the next 12 inches repeating the process, inching the window out was painstaking. Did we bend the exterior window frame a fraction as it was flexing, only visible to the eye of a painter or someone who does sheetrock, maybe. But no major bending or frame twisting or any damage to the side of the coach. ;D More importantly, no damage to the window opening (wood inner frame) and no dents or dings to the aluminum siding. The first window took almost 3 hours to get out. On to the rear window... feeling a bit more confident, understanding what to expect, it still took 2.5 hours...big window and 3 people to handle to avoid the window being damaged or falling out. It was very heavy.... on to the next... Now a few words about LD construction. I understand what they hoped to gain by putting the inner seal of PL1, but how it appeared to be applied in random amounts and there not being any sealant between the inner window frame and aluminum skin is questionable and a good topic for discussion. I've built many cars, restored homes, and I've helped build airplanes with aluminum skins and there are better water-proofing models and a few subtle things that could be done to protect the wood or prevent a leak in the advent of a broken outer seal. Water could have gotten onto the window frame if the outer seal failed...on every window. Another topic for another day.
Cleaning, Repairing and Defogging.... Here is a bit of mystery, as I was not allowed into this area. But there are a couple of photos showing what the windows looked like. I include one of those earlier.... The tech did say it was like cleaning most other windows. Since they do window repair work for Newmar, who also uses Hehr windows, the size and thickness were not unusual.
Installation... Installation was a bit straight forward with 3 of us handling the window... I ordered the window seal material from LD who was assisted in getting this shipped 2 day express. 80 ft. at $1.50/ft plus shipping. What was shipped and was we pulled off the window was different. So I imagine what they use has changed in the past 16 years. After putting the seal on the window, we applied a 1/2 bead of PL1 between the seal and the inner angle of the metal frame where it makes the 90 bend. That should evenly apply the inner sealant between the window metal frame and coach window opening edges. Now as controversial as this may sound, I don't agree that this is foolproof for sealing the window and never having or obtaining water damage. So, I applied a 3rd seal on the outer edge, using white PL1 on the upper and side edges where the paint is white and using black silicone on the bottom edge. I'm guessing that should stop just about any good old southern thunderstorm storm but possibly fail in a hurricane Cat 3 or greater or a tornado.
All for now... questions? ...If you decide to have your windows done, I can not guarantee what your outcome will be, since I do not know the condition of your coach. If you have water damage on the sides or near the windows, it would be pretty much impossible to pry the windows out. None the less, I don't think anyone else in the whole country would take any better care of you than these folks. Tell them Robby referred you and you just might get a discount or charged more. :D I am in no way affiliated with or work for anyone, except NASA. I will for the sake of conversation offer $1 for anyone who can guess where I am in the picture of my profile and $5 to the first person. Private messages only. Offer good for 48 hours.. Let's get started...