Need some help/advice:
We lost power at our home and since I keep my RV at home, I simply moved to my RV. As it grew dark, I thought I’d run my generator for a bit, then I turned on my AC. Everything seemed fine until I turned off my AC, followed by shutting down my generator. EVERTHING went dark! My control panel was dead, all 12 lights turned off and nothing would turn back on. The only way to turn 12 volt coach power back on was to first start the engine, followed by the generator. Once the microwave kicked on, the lights worked along with the control panel. Turning off the generator killed everything again.
I put a voltage meter on the coach batteries without the generator running nor the engine running and read 12.6 volts. With the engine running, 13.4 volts and with the generator running, 14.2 volts. I opened up the fuse panel and nothing seemed tripped. Nonetheless, I turned off the breakers and turned them back on. Still I have no 12 volt coach power, unless I run the generator. Any electricians or mechanics out there? Larry? Steve? Others.
Thank you,
Gary
Could be your master 12 V breaker tripped. This is a small, cheap automotive breaker--a little silver box the size of half an ice cube, with two terminals and a tiny black reset pushbutton. Lazy Daze hides it in various locations--for example, in a midbath, you have to remove the drawer under the fridge and reach inside to the left to reset it. I don't know where it is on a 30' twin bed, but somebody here can probably tell you. When the battery tests good yet all 12 V coach power is off, that breaker is the first thing I'd look at.
Another thought: you said "I opened up the fuse panel and nothing seemed tripped." I'd pull every fuse, starting with the 30A ones, and test it for continuity. Sometimes fuses can look good but not conduct.
Ok, I am going to ask some obvious questions, but you never know.
Your lights and other 12V items worked before you started your generator? Or did you not try to use them until it got dark and you turned on the generator? (e.g. could someone have been chewing on the cables or something came loose since last time you used the RV).
If the lights and 12v appliances were not used before you turned on the generator, maybe something was already not working:
-- Was your battery connected to it's cable and no disconnect switch is on? (E.g. you didn't disconnect the battery after the last RV use so the battery would not drain while parked.)
-- Did you check that wires from your battery to your electric panel are all ok includling all spots inbetween (separate ATS if you have one, shanks for battery monitor, etc.)
Jane
P.S. Andy, how cruel to have a 12v master breaker and not even have it in the power center / battery area where it is easy to find/know about :D
Okay in a 30’ IB it is also under the fridge. In general it’s likely close to the battery compartment but inside the vehicle/cabinetry. We have two drawers under fridge. That breaker is under the bottom drawer. On the floor of the coach. From there cable runs under floor to inverter.
Good luck
Lydia
Thank you Lydia, Jane and of course Andy! The neighborhood power came back on so I moved back into the house. I will look for that switch tomorrow when the sun comes up.
Is this the same switch that the owner's manual refers to on page 36 of the owner's manual regarding the electrical system? It reads 4) The house batteries circuit breaker is tripped (stays open). This specially constructed sealed circuit breaker is located inside the house batteries compartment on the rear wall and must be manually reset.
Lydia's RV is a 2006IB and mine is a 2007TB, likely the same location, under the refrigerator behind the lower drawers. The switch that you are talking about may be different from the one I am quoting from the manual? Or are they one in the same?
Gary
Answer to Jane's question:
I didn't turn on any lights but the control panel was lit up and one ceiling fan was operable. Also the display for the solar panel showed battery voltage levels. I am definitely leaning towards the 12 volt master switch; just have to find it. You would think it would be accessible. Although, I have had my 07' since 2011 and it has never tripped previously.
Gary
Jake, that sounds like the one.
I know that progressive told me to install a breaker between the batteries and power center so that their power center didn't get damaged if an installer put in new batteries with the cables incorrectly wired. Yup I have read stories here, it has happened by "pros" at the battery store.
I wonder if this master breaker does the same sort of thing.
Jane
Update,
I pulled the battery tray out to reveal the switch at the back wall of the battery box. I pushed at the middle of this switch thinking I would feel a click or hear something reset but I could find nothing to reset it. Does this reset somehow? There is a small red wire that is marked "electric step". That fuse is intact and the step is functioning. I pulled the bottom drawer completely out from under the refrigerator and see one large and one small box on top of each other that is obviously factory installed. They both have electrical wires emanating from it. One of the wires is fused with a 15 amp fuse which is operable. I believe it runs to the solar or factory satelite system. I cannot find a switch to reset here either. There must be a way to reset something?
Also, I rechecked the converter box with an voltmeter and there is no power anywhere to the box at the wires. I then plugged the RV in to my 30 amp source at home and, of course, I have power restored everywhere. There is a blinking green light at this panel. I will leave it plugged in as I have to leave for a convention.
Any further ideas before I leave in twenty minutes? If not, I will monitor the plethora of suggestions/ideas on my phone.
Best,
Gary
I think I have a short somewhere or a bad converter. Tried everything that I could; 12 volt breaker in battery box was not tripped
Gary
Could it be the transfer switch is stuck
Jody
"Could it be the transfer switch..."
I agree, it fits the symptoms quiet well. If the transfer switch failed to return to the AC side and is stuck on the Gennie side I'd expect you would see the same result. :o :(
"If the transfer switch failed to return to the AC side and is stuck on the Gennie side I'd expect you would see the same result."
If I understand Gary's decription of the problem correctly, he has no 12 V power when there is no 120 V power (shore power out, generator off). But there should be 12 V power from the batteries (which he's checked) regardless of whether AC is present. That means the state of the converter and the associated transfer switch are irrelevant.
Am I missing something here?
I had the 12V master breaker fail and the symptoms were as the OP.
I have a 23.5 FL and the breaker was in the compartment with the fuse panel and related converter.
I couldn't find it, so had to go to an RV shop and had them trace it down. Breaker was bout $10
Update:
I got fixated on this and delayed leaving for my convention. I reached out to a closed car repair shop that also works on RVs. One worker was there for people picking up their RVs. He offered to look at it if I drove it by. He looked at the switch at the back of the battery box and said it hadn’t tripped. He then verified no power to the fuse box. He verified the coach batteries as being good and then started the generator from the outside compartment. Then he went to the fuse box and jiggled a few fuses and then turned off the generator and I still had 12 volt power. It all worked! Or so it seemed; I lightened my wallet of some cash for his time and started to drive home. I only got about a mile and I heard a slight click (not sure where); guessing that I lost power and once home, I’m back to square 1. Joty suggests a Master 12 volt breaker failure? I assume that is not the one in the battery box but is located somewhere behind the fuse box from her description?
I called back the “now cash rich” shop attendant and he suggested I bring it in during the week for the electrical tech to check out.
He suspects a short somewhere in the 12 volt system but it’s above his pay grade.
Any more thoughts after reading this?
Best,
Gary
Juggling electric components that results in them working - a general red flag for me...
Nothing should be jiggle-able with electric (except a little extra length in wires themselves). I had heard for years 12v could not cause a fire until I read of an RV fire caused by 12v wiring. And the escapees bootcamp did list 12v as one of their top causes (maybe position 5).
I would go back and look at those fuses in the fuse box to be sure they are tight - there should be no wobble of the fuse in the spot nor of the spots in their box.
However I don't know that this would knock out all your 12v.
Jane
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I should say that I personally think the 12v wiring fires might be caused by the very thick 11v wire - not the thinner one found in most areas of the LD.
DH said check your connections on that fuse box.
Jane
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Thanks everyone for taxing their minds and giving suggestions!
I will personally check each and every fuse that is in the fuse box, although my gut tells me different. My experience tells me that a fuse will only affect the circuit that it is fused to protect. Losing that continuity will only affect those devices that are powered by the blown fuse. In my mind, losing all 12 volt power sounds more like that could be caused by a master 12 volt breaker or switch. My 2007 didn't come from the factory with the 12 volt shutoff, so I can't look there. Now the breaker in the battery box maybe the culprit? I don't know if they ever go bad. I am not sure how to appropriately test that little switch on the back wall. I also still want to hear more of the 12 volt breaker that is located behind the fuse panel that Joty mentioned in an earlier post. I have not heard any more mention of that possibility.
I wonder if Larry or Steve have anything to add here? They both are top notch diagnosticians.
Best,
Gary
Gary - you bought your LD new?
No previous owners that might have done something g custom?
What power center brand & model do you have?
If I remember right the progressive we put in (entire power center) had some pretty complete diagrams. I will look to pull that up shortly when I get back in front of a computer. It might give some clues - at least where else to test for 12v, and might help even if you have adifferent model.
Jane
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This thread, full of suggestions, diagnostic tips and advice is what this group does best. These are the kind of threads I bookmark. Thanks for everyone's participation.
Chris
Gary,
Ok, here is a picture of the Progressive PD4000 Series Power Control Center that I installed (has the AC breakers, DC fuses, and a converter - all in one box, no ATS in the box).
See the attached picture. On the right is the AC power (coming in - mine has an separate ATS where the generator and shore power come into that ATS, then comes out of the ATS and goes into the power center).
On the left is where the battery is connected - see the red lines. These cables/wires connecting the battery to the power center should be significantly larger than the other wires you will see in that power center.
Find that equivalent spot (battery positive) on your power center and see of you are getting 12V into your power center (If you give me a brand/model number I will work to dig up a manual and diagram) .
If you get power at that connection spot in your power center, the problem likely is between that spot and your fuses (check your panel out well for connections). From our fuses wires get scattered in all directions to various fixtures.
If you do not get power into that connection spot, you need to trace backwards towards the battery. Look for any inline fuses / breakers. I am guessing your master 12v breaker/fuse is between the power center and the battery.
Note, our power center also has fuse to prevent damage if someone connects the battery cables in the wrong locations (swaps them). Once that fuse is overloaded it needs to be replaced. I included a picture of that location also.
Pictures (as well as brand and model) of your power center would be helpful. If needed I can grab some pictures of ours (sometimes diagrams don't look exactly like the real thing).
Jane
Dear Jane and Scott,
Thank you very much for your assistance on this. When I return home tomorrow, I will take a deeper look into the converter located behind the fuse control panel if there is enough daylight left. I am going to look specifically for loose wires and connections that may have vibrated loose. Another thought is to look for rat or rodent chew marks since our home used to be home to indigenous rats who loved the orange groves. It is possible that rats may have chewed some wires but everything appears to be interior wired that power the converter, not accessible to the rats. It is true that our RVs travel over bumps and dips which simulate earthquakes here in California; perhaps it is a simple connection issue.
The answer to another question: No, I am not the original owner. I purchased my second Lazy Daze (first being a 26.5 rear bath) from the original owners in 2011 so there are four years of unknown "alternations or modifications." I have done many things since 2011, but have not had any electrical issues until now. One of the first early things was to replace the factory "dumb" paralax converter to the 3 phase smart progressive converter. I recall it to be the 55 amp model. I didn't do the install myself having left that to a local independant RV shop that has since closed its doors. To date, all systems were performing without issues.
If I am unable to locate the issue, I am going to let the shop test and figure it out. Nonetheless, once fixed I will query them for the details of the solution and the cause. Then I plan to post the results for all to see.
Best,
Gary
Just a guess but I would look for a "cold solder joint" on the printed circuit board on the circuit path from the battery input through the 30 amp fuses. Jiggling the fuses individually may help you find where it is. I once had this happen on the furnace fuse. Took awhile to find it.
It appears the discontinuity is within that PC board. The repair is to reheat the solder joint on the fuse mount tab.
Hi Gary. I found this picture from Klaus, Reply #6 MagneTek 6345 Converter Replacement (https://www.lazydazeowners.com/index.php?topic=32570.msg195370#msg195370) The picture of the 12 V dc fuse board should be close to what you have.
The two 30Amp (yellow) fuses could be bad, blown or not plugged in correctly. I believe either one would prevent the batteries from providing power to the coach. The converter with either shore power, or generator 110V AC input would still feed 12V.DC to the coach, but wouldn't charge the batteries. The heavy red wire at top left-ish goes to the batteries plus output lead. (it kind of looks like it goes to the lower right of the board, but that is a smaller different wire). The two white wire at the upper right have a black wire just to the left of them marked Batt. Hard to discern in the picture but a heavy duty black wire going to the battery terminal marked (minus). That is also grounded, and so are the two white wires, grounded elsewhere.
Make sure all of the connections are tight. Phillips screws across the bottom. Allen screws across the top.
If you have a voltmeter, measure for 12V DC between the grounds (upper right) and the big red wire at top. If you don't have 12V, then the battery power isn't getting to the converter or coach. If you do have 12V I would carefully inspect those two yellow 30 A. fuses. I believe there is a black push button on that black circuit breaker in the battery box. I think that is rated at 50 A. to protect the wiring. From previous comments here there is another circuit breaker between the one at the battery box, and that red wire connected to the converter fuse board.
I've just restated some of what Jane and Scott said. Picture from Klaus. thanks to both.
I highly recommend the nearly free red Harbor Freight DVMeter. Simple but adequate for measuring 12 vdc. and 110 VAC., Some ohms and continuity. (they do have a 9v. battery inside that needs replacement once in a while) . RonB
Hi Ron,
Nice hearing from you Ron. I am still away from my coach but I am going to dig into the fuse panel when I get home, hopefully before it gets dark. I had tested the DC voltage on board when I had no 12 volt power and reported that I got nothing. The only time I could get voltage to my circuit board was when I started the generator or connected to my home 30 amp circuit. The lone exception was the solar panel. This is why I suspected the breaker at the back of the battery box. I am not sure if the breaker has a short or ?
Joty had mentioned another 12 volt breaker in the fuse box; I'm not clear about there being another one. I had also previously pulled out the drawers under the refrigerator and found no other breaker.
Best,
Gary
Gary.
The breaker that was replaced in mine was not re settable.
It was a small silver rectangular box with wires going to it.
Only took the RV tech a few minutes to find, he knew what he was looking at
and for.
I am not sure my experience with total loss of 12VDC is applicable to this situation or not.
Last summer, we stopped to have a bite to eat before driving across the Mackinac Bridge. I was in the rear of our mid-bath when my wife announced that the fridge had stopped running. When I went up front to check it out, I noticed that everything that ran on 12volts was not working. You know that feeling when you are a long way from home and a big problem crops up? Expletive deleted!
So I went out to check the batteries with a volt meter. I checked each one separately and each was fine. Ready to start looking for those fuses between the batteries and the electric panel and wondering what I was going to do after that, I went back out to the battery compartment. We have a factory installed battery disconnect switch; what had happened was the crimped on connector to the red wire that connects to the disconnect switch had broken. So while each battery had power, they were no longer joined together to make 12VDC.
A trip across the Big Mac Bridge to a NAPA where I bought a length of battery cable to join the two batteries together and voila.... we had power. I felt like an engineer on the Enterprise!
If you ever read the owner's manual for a new electric device like a TV, under trouble shooting, you notice what appears to be a ridiculous suggestion, to "Make sure the device is plugged in". While I was looking for this to be a big problem, it was something as simple as the we weren't plugged in.
So Gary, not sure how you started the genset without 12VDC since I don't know if running the truck engine will allow the genset to start or not. Worth checking to see if you are indeed connected to the batteries before digging deeper.
Just my 2 cents.
Steve K.
I am not sure my experience with total loss of 12VDC is applicable to this situation or not.
Last summer, we stopped to have a bite to eat before driving across the Mackinac Bridge. I was in the rear of our mid-bath when my wife announced that the fridge had stopped running. When I went up front to check it out, I noticed that everything that ran on 12volts was not working. You know that feeling when you are a long way from home and a big problem crops up? Expletive deleted!
So I went out to check the batteries with a volt meter. I checked each one separately and each was fine. Ready to start looking for those fuses between the batteries and the electric panel and wondering what I was going to do after that, I went back out to the battery compartment. We have a factory installed battery disconnect switch; what had happened was the crimped on connector to the red wire that connects to the disconnect switch had broken. So while each battery had power, they were no longer joined together to make 12VDC.
A trip across the Big Mac Bridge to a NAPA where I bought a length of battery cable to join the two batteries together and voila.... we had power. I felt like an engineer on the Enterprise!
If you ever read the owner's manual for a new electric device like a TV, under trouble shooting, you notice what appears to be a ridiculous suggestion, to "Make sure the device is plugged in". While I was looking for this to be a big problem, it was something as simple as the we weren't plugged in.
So Gary, not sure how you started the genset without 12VDC since I don't know if running the truck engine will allow the genset to start or not. Worth checking to see if you are indeed connected to the batteries before digging deeper.
Just my 2 cents.
Steve K.
Vince (Mothership) hates the battery disconnect switch...has plenty of stories where folks come in or call with electrical issues only to find the disconnect switch had messed up.....
Hi Gary; The problem is when it isn't a short, the normal conducting condition is what you want. Open is the 'tripped' condition, where no power passes through it. This is what I would use Amazon.com: RKURCK 12V-24V DC 50 Amp Circuit Breaker Fuse Holder with Manual... (https://www.amazon.com/RKURCK-12V-24V-Circuit-Breaker-Holder/dp/B07GFDB4NP/ref=asc_df_B07GFDB4NP/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=316623965946&hvpos=1o3&hvnetw=g&hvrand=12100849142118145877&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9031352&hvtargid=pla-618644860991&psc=1 ) to replace my breaker if it ever malfunctioned. Pretty reasonable price, and Amazon. Let us know what you find. RonB
Hi there Steve,
I will certainly look into the battery box again but as I mentioned earlier, I don't have the battery disconnect switch on my 07'. I can start my generator directly at the generator site by priming, then starting. This verifies that my coach batteries are connected and suppling enough juice to start the generator.
Gary
Ron,
Thanks for the link; that looks like a replacement for the factory installed 12 volt breaker. I am going to order one, since it is so cheap, for a spare even if I don't end up needing it this time. I can't resist inexpensive spare parts, that's why my garage is so full!
Gary
Gary; That part is 50 amps. The generator would need 100 amps. So this one would be better outside in the battery box Amazon.com: Marine Circuit Breaker 100Amp for Boat Trolling with Manual... (https://www.amazon.com/Marine-Circuit-Breaker-100Amp-Trolling/dp/B07J56KB51/ref=asc_df_B07J56KB51/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=309806250188&hvpos=1o25&hvnetw=g&hvrand=10893772192721236885&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9031352&hvtargid=pla-603166706090&psc=1). It is waterproofed better also. That the generator starts seems to indicate that the other circuit breaker might be the problem. It should be near the converter box. RonB
Ron,
Too late, I already ordered the 50 amp one. Ah heck, I just enlarged the picture of the factory unit and see that it is a 120 amp waterproof unit. Now I will order the correct one.
Gary
Ron,
Too late, I already ordered the 50 amp one. Ah heck, I just enlarged the picture of the factory unit and see that it is a 120 amp waterproof unit. Now I will order the correct one.
Gary
On Amazon you can cancel orders....try that...
Ron if you ordered on amazon you can cancel it - unless it is already shipped (not likely) it will cancel fine.
Jane
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I strongly recommend against using the RKURCK circuit breaker, or any high-amperage circuit breaker or fuse holder that uses setscrew terminals. Those terminals are likely to loosen up with the vibration of travel, and when they do, the result will be overheating and a possible fire or meltdown. Just ask anybody who has had it happen to their automatic transfer switch or EMS.
Ron has the right idea: get a marine-rated waterproof circuit breaker with stud terminals, and use ring terminals on your wires.
Yes, I was able to cancel the 50 amp circuit breaker on Amazon and found the exact same one that the factory uses Bussmann 184F-120, non-switchable (others have claimed Vince doesn't like the cutoff types or cutoff switch). One could use the switchable unit Bussman 185-120 and use it as a master cutoff switch? The downside being that possibly the repeated use of the little button may result in failure at some point. I just ordered the same unit that the factory put in originally. Now I will have a factory spare if my problem turns out to be something in the fusebox or behind it. I will certainly give a follow up as promised for everyone following this thread.
Best,
Gary
Vince (Mothership) hates the battery disconnect switch...has plenty of stories where folks come in or call with electrical issues only to find the disconnect switch had messed up.....
And the reason why the Factory battery switch has frequent problems is that it isn't sealed, the switch's contact are exposed to the elements and corrode away. The contacts slowly start failing and can cause all sort of strange electrical issues.. One test of a failing switch is to check the voltage drop across the switch's terminals, with a large 12-volt electrical load on.
If Vince hates it so much, he is in a good position to do something about it,...maybe installing a sealed switch?
Here is the switch LD uses or used, not sure what they use today.
150 Amp Battery Master Switch - Accessories, Battery Switches - Hella Marine (https://www.hellamarine.com/en/products/accessories/battery-switches/50-amp-battery-master-switch.html)
Notice in small print "Note: Not suitable for areas exposed to water or moisture."
I never found a sealed replacement for LD's mid-battery mounted battery switch. Better, sealed marine batter switches are widely available but do require an acceptable spot to mount it and up to three new cables.
Larry
Since i brought up the loss ot 12VDC due to problems at the battery disconnect switch and now some folks are making negative comments about the Hella disconnect switch, I want to clarify the issue I had.
It was NOT the 15 year old disconnect switch that failed. It was the attachment end of the red wire that broke whichment the batteries werenot connected.
I did decide to buy a new disconnect switch. I ordered the same Hella item from Amazon for much less than the LD factory charged. These switches have served me well. Never a problem with the switch, only the one time wire issue.
I do clean everything in the battery box at least once per year and spray battery terminal protective stuff on all connections.
Steve K
You might want to call Vince at the factory tomorrow and get some advice from him. Even though you are not the original owner, he should still be willing to help you.
Mike S.
"what had happened was the crimped on connector to the red wire that connects to the disconnect switch had broken."
The crimped terminals used by Lazy Daze and most other RV makers are cheap ones (not heat-shrinkable, not adhesive-lined). And the crimp tools used to apply them are often cheap and imprecise. This can lead to failures such as Steve described. Remedy: use good quality terminals (FTZ Crimp 'N seal for gauges up to #10; FTZ Power Lugs for larger gauges) and adjustable, ratcheting crimping tools (FTZ makes good ones) for consistent results.
I got the following info right out of the book's wiring diagram. In our MH, a 1994 Mid bath, there are indeed two breakers, one is in the battery box and the other is inside the coach almost directly behind the battery box.
As I read the wiring diagram, the 120 A. breaker protects between the engine alternator and the battery's. You know it's good because of your voltage readings with the engine running. The second is a 50 A. protecting between the converter and the battery's. This is the one that could give a problem, I'm not totally clear where you took your voltage readings from but if it was at the converter and you had no voltage with everything off at the converter terminals it almost has to be either a tripped breaker or a bad one. Take your meter and read from one side of the breaker to the other side and see if you have a volt reading. If you read voltage that breaker is open and most likely your problem. Remember, read from one post to the other with your meter.
I'll try and attach my wiring diagram from the manual.
This is a really interesting thread so make sure to keep everyone up to speed.
Jon...
My own tentative diagnosis before taking my RV into a shop:
I got home before it got dark and went to work checking things. As I had stated, I don't have have the factory disconnect switch that this thread has slightly deviated to. However, I do have the 12 V Bussmann circuit breaker that is mounted in the rear of my battery box. I showed a picture of this breaker in an earlier post. I again tested that breaker and I got power on both studs which indicates that the breaker is not tripped. There is a manual reset on this factorized breaker. This model breaker doesn't have an on/off button, only the manual reset back to "on" once tripped. Bussmann does make a switch with that capability as mentioned earlier but the LD factory uses only the manual reset as far as I know. I ordered a new replacement through Amazon as the direct replacement from what the factory used in my 2007 year. It is a Bussmann CB184-120 Waterproof breaker commonly used in RVs and buses.
I again tested the exposed leads in the fuse box and still had no power anywhere. My batteries tested at a little under 12 volts which is obviously low. I next unscrewed the screen door ventilation near the fusebox to check anything in that area. I did find an inline fuse (60amp) so I pulled that out and tested it and it was fine. Even though the control panel indicators and all the interior lights were not working, I can still start the generator from inside switch on the control panel. Of course, I can also start the generator from the outside switch. The generator fired right up and then my fuse box lit up and came to life. The green lite is rapidly flashing and the interior lights work. I then checked the voltages at the fuse box. I got 14.3 volts. Then I checked the voltage at the battery and it was still just under 12 volts. I then shut down the generator and then I plugged into the home 110 30amp box. I rechecked the voltages in the fuse box and they were the same as with the generator running. I then checked the charge voltage on the house batteries and it remained at just under 12 volts. I then unplugged from home power and started the engine knowing that the engine is going to charge the house batteries even more efficiently than the converter. I then checked the house batteries with the engine running and got 13.6 volts!
My conclusion, even though I am not an electrician:
It seems apparent to me that my Progressive Dynamics Intelligent smart charging converter has failed. I had this installed in 2011 immediately after purchasing my LD. I found the paperwork and see that it only has a two year warranty so it looks like it is time to purchase a new one. I will have it installed by an RV shop so I will have someone to point the finger at if it ever catches fire!
I welcome any concurring opinions or contrary opinions if my diagnosis is incorrect.
Best,
Gary
Your converter is doing what it's supposed to do. When you put 110 to it, it converts it to D.C. Voltage. That's the reason all your lights etc. work when your generator is on or you are plugged in.
Your problem is between your converter and your battery. Pull the drawers out from under the frig and there are two "circuit breakers" I think one of those goes to your 12 V panel. The other one goes to your inverter which sits on the back of your battery box in the very back of that compartment. If both those are good then more than likely you have a problem with the ground.
Problem solved! A big thank you for all whom chimed in to offer suggestions! The winning suggestion goes to "newbie" gmfl!
My previous diagnosis that my converter must have failed was incorrect. On the first night that I lost power, I had pulled the drawers out from under the refrigerator and saw two big black electrical looking boxes while holding a flashlight. These two boxes appeared to be sitting on top of the battery box. I did see some large red cables attached to what I thought were junction boxes. I had no idea these are actually circuit breakers! I did not notice the tiny little black pinhead plastic buttons sticking out of the right side. Tonight, based on gmfl's last posting, I checked for circuit breakers again and once I pushed the little black button, Viola! Everything returned to normal! I must add that the rapidly flashing green light on my fuse box suddenly returned to a slow flashing green light.
As a bonus, since I encountered this problem, I got to look over my electrical system and became a lot more familiar with my coach and certainly learned a few things. Hopefully, others will benefit from following this thread. I have attached some photos of the pulled out drawer, exposing the inverter (I presume) and the little silver circuit breakers near the side of the drawer cabinet.
Thank you all fellow LDer's again,
Gary
Addendum:
While reading through the installation instructions of my Progressive Dynamics Converter Replacement, I noticed that the original installers of my unit failed to install the two 30 amp fuses on my circuit board. In the instructions on page 5 of the PD manual it reads: "All PD4600 Series Converter Replacement units require (2) 30 AMP fuses which must be installed to distribute DC power." They were both not installed in my original installation back in 2011! They are now installed, as evidenced by the two photos below.
Gary
Gary,
Whoo Hoo for figuring things out. And extra gold stars for figuring out there was an error installing your Progressive Dynamics Converter Replacement and correcting that!
You learned a valuable lesson - the only way to know what your electrical system is doing for sure is to trace wires.
I hope you documented all this for yourself and for any future owners of your rig.
When we put in our new power center, we were replacing something very custom the original owner had put in. I was posting pictures asking "what is this" for things that were not obvious to me. ;D
Something for future readers of this post to keep in mind, not everyone has the same wiring.
Most people start out with a basic design that has mostly stayed the same but a few changes have happened over the years (e.g. solar as an option vs standard, etc.).
Locations of items change LD model to LD model, and even over the years (all our power items are inside of the cabinet just inside the door of our TK, only the battery is in the battery bin - it is very nice to have everything in one place especially while I see posts like Garys trying to find something while others are saying theirs are in various places).
Owners make changes (adding inverters and upgrading charger/converters are common).
Some people end up replacing the entire power center (our LDs original owner did when they first bought it, and then 30 years later we did again). All in one power centers with converters included are wired differently than if just the converter upgrade is done.
It is nice to know what your electrical system looks like - I would suggest everyone trace wires and take pictures/do writeups, especially if you are not the original owner. Labels are nice (Gary had some nice ones) but labels can and will fall off over time so I don't depend on them being there.
Knowing your electrical system and a volt meter gets you a long way! And sure saves time when something needs to be reset. ;D
Jane
Despite Andy's aversion to those set screw attached circuit breakers,(RKURCK) they are not unsafe. That is industry standard, as evidenced by the connectors along the top of that fuse panel board. The image of multi strand copper wire being crushed inside a hole by a set screw is everywhere. https://www.homedepot.com/p/14-4-AWG-Copper-Mechanical-Lug-5-Pack-of-2-KA4CBAG2R/202944392?MERCH=REC-_-PIPHorizontal1_rr-_-202944388-_-202944392-_-N I've worked with power distribution systems 208 three phase, 50 -60 Amp currents and 70 Amp breakers for over 25 years (while I was working). What happens is thermal cycling at the joints. Under high current the copper swells up, then shrinks when cooled down. The inclined plane leverage of the set screw will back off along with the copper 'oozing' away from the contact point. Any oxidation that occurs on the copper surface will eventually penetrate into the connection and cause more heat. and can eventually fail. This applies to houses, motorhomes, cars, and industry.
Larry, I, Terry Tanner (Techsnoz site) have all advocated a 'every few years' maintenance procedure to retighten those set screw connections to keep them secure. Spade lug connections also need the nuts snugged up. Details in the archives. RonB
"All PD4600 Series Converter Replacement units require (2) 30 AMP fuses which must be installed to distribute DC power." They were both not installed in my original installation back in 2011! "
If the 30 amp fuses were not installed all these years and the system was working, what do the fuses protect? A blown fuse creates an open circuit, same as it not being there. I must be missing something obvious here.
Mike S.
I believe it is added protection in case the house batteries are ever hooked up incorrectly. However, I plan to call PD and ask.
Gary
Thanks for the excellent pics! Seeing it is the only way I can understand these technical threads. 🤓 — Jon
As promised, I just called Progressive Dynamics and verified that those two 30 amp fuses should be installed. He seemed surprised that they were missing since 2011 and added, "I guess they were not needed for it to have worked all these years?" Nonetheless, when I delved further on their website, I found in their trouble shooting section for my model PD4655 instructions to remove these two 30 amp fuses to adequately test the DC voltage output of the house batteries and the DC voltage output of the converter. My guess is that, back in 2011, the installing technician got distracted or simply forgot to reinstall the two 30 amp fuses. Most importantly, they are installed now, the reverse protection circuit is protected and everything works as it should. I am smiling!
Best,
Gary
Larry mentioned, “And the reason why the Factory battery switch has frequent problems is that it isn't sealed, the switch's contact are exposed to the elements and corrode away. The contacts slowly start failing and can cause all sort of strange electrical issues“.
Looking at our battery disconnect switch that LD installed, I did notice that the back of the switch is exposed to the potential corrosive effects of a “wet” battery set up. As we have AGM batteries, there should be no such concern for us, I would think.
That being said, I wonder how effective “Liquid Electrical Tape” would be as a deterrent from corrosion. How difficult would the “tape” be to remove if the disconnect switch needed to be replaced? It seems like a practical solution to the corrosion issue and may also be useful where exposed wire connections are in areas of potential shorts.
Kent
Despite Andy's aversion to those set screw attached circuit breakers,(RKURCK) they are not unsafe. That is industry standard, as evidenced by the connectors along the top of that fuse panel board. The image of multi strand copper wire being crushed inside a hole by a set screw is everywhere.
Larry, I, Terry Tanner (Techsnoz site) have all advocated a 'every few years' maintenance procedure to retighten those set screw connections to keep them secure. Spade lug connections also need the nuts snugged up. Details in the archives. RonB
Once every two years, I disconnect all electrical power, including solar, next opening up the Power Center and tightening every possible lug, on both the 120-VAC side as well as the 12-VDC side.
Of concern are the positive and negative lugs, from the coach battery and the converter.
Through the years, several members have suffered burned Power Centers, primarily on the 120-VAC side, caused by loose lugs.
Larry
Most importantly, they are installed now, the reverse protection circuit is protected and everything works as it should. I am smiling!
I still don't get it. Can somebody explain how this reverse protection circuit works? For years it operated with an open circuit (i.e. no fuses installed). And now it apparently works with a closed circuit with fuses installed. How does this protection work and what would blow the fuse and to what effect?
Mike S.
That being said, I wonder how effective “Liquid Electrical Tape” would be as a deterrent from corrosion. How difficult would the “tape” be to remove if the disconnect switch needed to be replaced? It seems like a practical solution to the corrosion issue and may also be useful where exposed wire connections are in areas of potential shorts.
The battery switch's shaft needs an internal o-ring to seal it, something liquid electrical tape cannot provide.
Even AGMs can leak small amounts of liquids that need to be washed off. Battery compartment can get quite dirty and need occasional rinsing, washing allows water to enter the switch, entering along the horizonal shaft.
When washing, covering the Factory switch with a plastic bag is recommended.
Larry
Thanks Larry,
So that begs the question...”Why not bag the switch” even if you’re not cleaning the battery compartment?
Kent
So that begs the question...”Why not bag the switch” even if you’re not cleaning the battery compartment?
With AGMs, it should be fine but with lead-acid batteries, I would be concerned that a permanent bag would contain any rising fumes and increase the rate of damage. If using a bag, leave its bottom partially open to allow any trapped water a way out.
Larry
To try to explain the answer I got from the Progressive Dynamic Tech Support to Mike S.:
I agree that the explanation given by the Tech (Alan, I recall, at PD telephone # 269-781-4241) left me a little wanting. My understanding is that the fuses serve to protect the converter in case the house batteries are installed incorrectly. That is what the installation instructions stated. As I said in my previous message, the manual states to remove them both while testing the voltages of the battery and converter against the ground on the board. This is to give a more accurate reading. They are to be reinstalled after testing, mine were not.
Maybe someone with higher technical understanding can explain it better than Alan did to me? I don't know if I was getting the full 55 amp charge without the two fuses in place for the last 7 years. I am still working so I don't get to take it on many trips and when I do, I seldom boondock except for a night or two. The two Trojan 105's I have now were new in 2017 and, of course, I have the watering system. I called Progressive Dynamics twice and got the same technical advisor. I explained the situation thoroughly and told him I had the model number PD 4655 Intellicharger (converter) installed in 2011 and he wasn't able to give me more of an explanation. I didn't choose to call a third time. The number to PD is listed above for those who wish more information.
Gary
Ok, without really looking at this (e.g. just off the top of my head), if the fuses are to protect when the cables are swapped....
Wouldn't that mean they are on the negative/ground wires, not the positive?
To protect the converter/charger/power center when a charge from the battery comes in on the wrong path.
So... if you were missing the fuses, no problem UNLESS someone installed your battery incorrectly as there is not a surge of electricity coming down that line & thru the fuses.
It is like the older house wiring (1950s and earlier) that is missing ground wires. Many houses still don't have ground wire - Seattle had a ton of them all built at the turn of the century and up thru the 50s. People just illegally changed the outlets/added plugs to allow themselves to plug in 3 prong electrical devices. They still work, just missing something we now consider very important for safety.
Or the fact that the electric code for stick and brick homes now require you to ground your box where cable & telephone come into the house.
As long as you don't get a lightening strike or some other instance where you need electricity to go down that ground wire, then you don't miss the ground wires.
I grew up being told don't talk on the phone during a storm as lightening could hit the phone wires. I thought that was nonsense and didn't really pay attention to it (or follow it). After all I never heard of anyone having problems talking on the phone during storms.
But now there is statues (Electrical codes put into law by the states) that says you MUST have a grounded wire on your phone box where it enters the house.
I bet because there were enough people that got hurt by lightening hitting the phone/cable wires that the committees that create those electrical codes said we need to require it and agreed to make it a law.
While I have never actively used ground wires to my knowledge, I do want them in all my electricity!!
I have never had a stick and brick insurance claim either, but I have always had it - just in case.
Jane
Thank you Jane. That explanation makes sense. Now, why are their two fuses (perhaps one on the negative and one on the positive lines?) and why should they be removed to more accurately measure the DC voltage? Presumably that circuit adds extra load which affects the measured voltage.
Mike S.
Two fused - ground and negative? But I am not sure it has both those - 12v fixtures in our LD have only 2 wires (hot and not hot) and negative can be used as ground (an electrical engineer I worked with was struggling to understand house electricity because in his world ground and neutral were the same function).
I have no idea why it would affect voltage reading - those spots are in a board so maybe a question for Ron as maybe it is related to circuit boards more than just wiring and electricity?
Jane
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Mike, I didn't say but there should be a breaker between your battery positive line and your converter/controller - Progressive highly recommends (e.g. told me about 5 times) that doing this protects their equipment. They told me to choose one with amps above your charger amps but not too high (too high and it missed things it should catch).
"All PD4600 Series Converter Replacement units require (2) 30 AMP fuses which must be installed to distribute DC power." They were both not installed in my original installation back in 2011! "
If the 30 amp fuses were not installed all these years and the system was working, what do the fuses protect? A blown fuse creates an open circuit, same as it not being there. I must be missing something obvious here.
Mike S.
I'm going to go waaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyyy out on a limb here and take a stab at this, mostly because it has me concerned if I'm right. If I recall correctly, you mentioned a) that the fuses should be removed to check the voltage output of the converter, and b) that the fuses were involved with reverse polarity protection. My first thought was that the fuses were proprietary and contained diodes since diodes are often used in providing reverse polarity protection AND would cause a voltage drop of about .7 volts in the circuit. "Isolator" diodes are often seen when installing the connection between an RV and toad. After looking at the pictures, these don't appear to be anything other than a standard fuse. That said, it would make sense to me for one of the fuses to be in series with the convert and battery (tying the two together) and the other fuse to be on the negative battery lead, although I'm not sure why they would want to do that. In any event, if the panel was working before without any fuses, it seems reasonable that the installer figured a way to DEFEAT this safety design. Your fuses may now be doing nothing at all. If I'm correct I suspect the installer directly connected the battery and converter, bypassing the fuses altogether. I hope I'm wrong. There could also have been a design change we are unaware of that negates the use of the fuses. If it were my panel, I think I would investigate further. Just my 2 cents worth.
Ken
PS The question remains of why to pull the fuses to check the converter output. My guess would be simply to isolate it from any loads that could cause the voltage to drop. The open circuit voltage would be an easy measurement to compare one unit to the next.
"I just called Progressive Dynamics and verified that those two 30 amp fuses should be installed."
Believing that I have the same unit from PD as the one under discussion all I can say is that the two 30amp fuses have been there since the late Mike Sylvester installed the unit at one of the Albuquerque Balloon Fiestas some years ago. Mike was a Certified Tech and I have trusted his work without question (God Rest His Soul). And all those years have been without issue as regards the power panel. ;D ;)
I agree with you Steve. I put in the two standard ATC 30 amp fuses from my spares. The PD instructions made no note of proprietary "special" fuses; it simply stated that they should be removed to test the installation. If there had been a special fuse to be installed that came with the unit, common sense tells me that it would certainly be noted in their instruction manual.
Gary
Maybe someone with higher technical understanding can explain it better than Alan did to me? I don't know if I was getting the full 55 amp charge without the two fuses in place for the last 7 years.
When installing a larger converter, replacing the stock 45-amp converter, I remove the two 30-amp fuses and add a larger, inline fuse to take advantage of the greater amperage flow. The 30-amp fuses were there originally to protect the stock converter and to provide reverse polarity protection.
New converter | Ready for installation. 6-gauge output wires… | Flickr (https://www.flickr.com/photos/lwade/2178123145/in/album-72157603671199053/)
A 70 amp inline Maxi fuse replaced the 30-amp fuses mounted on distribution board. The Maxi fuse is behind the power Center's cover
Perhaps your LD is wired this way and would explain why it has operated for years without the two 30-amp fuses
(https://live.staticflickr.com/2073/2178123145_2ec742f6be.jpg)
Larry
To update this thread to a final conclusion:
My curiosity got the best of me so I called Progressive Dynamics for a third time and spoke with Dennis in technical support. He was much more helpful than the first technician. The two fuses are necessary to protect the converter from the improper connection of the batteries and they are not proprietary in nature. I had stated earlier that without them, perhaps I wasn't getting a full charge from my converter. In reality, I wasn't getting any charge from my converter to the batteries. I explained that the technician that installed my converter 7 years ago is no longer in business to which he replied, "I can certainly understand that!" I then asked if there was a way to bypass the fuses and wire directly from the converter to the battery and he responded, "That would not be appropriate and would defeat the purpose of the fuses. The fuses must be installed for you to charge your battery from the converter."
Obviously, I am a low consumption user and have relied on my lone solar panel and engine alternator to keep my house batteries charged. My engine has kept my house batteries sufficiently charged for my weekend trips. Since I still work Monday through Fridays and only take shorter trips, I didn't notice. It is working like a champ now and I certainly have learned a lot! Thanks to all...…………………………..
Safe travels,
Gary
After a little research, here is what I think is going on with the 30A fuses:
I have the stock Parallax 7345 converter in my '06 LD and it does have the two 30A fuses installed. I confirmed that these fuses are indeed there for reverse battery polarity protection. It actually says this on the sticker on the converter, but LD covered this up with the wiring diagram specific to my coach.
I think Ken was on the right track except with his diode theory but instead of the diodes being contained in a special fuse, they are built into the controller board itself and the diodes are what provides the protection (I still don't understand why there are two circuits and two fuses though; perhaps the design of the DC part of the converter uses two separate 12V circuits).
The function of a diode is to allow current in normal operation. If the polarity is accidentally reversed, then the diode protects the circuit by not allowing current in the opposite direction, thus protecting the converter. However, as mentioned, diodes in normal operation have a voltage drop of .7v (for a semiconductor diode). Thus, in order to get correct voltage measurements, you would remove the fuses to isolate the diode circuit and remove this voltage drop. I think but am not 100% sure that the fuses are not the actual protection mechanism; the diodes are. The fuses are only there to enable accurate voltage measurements when testing.
If this is correct then Gary's converter did not have reverse polarity protection all these years without the fuses installed.
My two cents and enough of my day spent pondering it :)
Mike S.
OK, I think I had it backwards. This article advocating a different product called a Power Fault Protector describes how most reverse polarity circuits work:
" Ironically most equipment has some form of reverse polarity protection built in. Usually in the form of a diode and fuse. The 'theory' is that if a reverse polarity fault occurs, the diode will conduct, short the power supply to ground and cause the fuse to blow - thus protecting your equipment."
Reverse polarity damage to 12/24 Volt electronics (http://www.sto-p.com/pfp/pfp-reversepolarity.htm)
So the diode on the board only conducts when reverse polarity is detected and the fuse blows when power is shorted to ground".
Mike S.
Gary - Dennis is THE person to talk to. Extremely knowledgeable and loves talking about how their products work and configurations. I thought you were talking to him. i was told he is the one real technical expert there. But then my questions typically exceed the first level support no matter what product.
The people that answer the phone are good for basic questions but technical stuff Dennis is the guy.
Jane
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Mike - nice description.
Jane
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All of you are great with your suggestions, thoughts and contrary viewpoints. Mike S., and Jane's thoughts of diodes were thought provoking. Agreed, Dennis is the "go to guy" there at PD.
Larry, your idea of an alternative installation intrigued me to the degree that I even asked Dennis if there was an alternative way of installing their converter. It is hard to believe that I went 7 years without noticing the two missing 30 amp fuses not making a difference. Therefore, I delved further into my "mystery converter installation" and pulled the ventilation screen from under the sink to expose the back of the converter. I took a couple of pictures and attached them to this message below. As you can see, I found a 60 amp inline fuse attached to a positive large gauge wire and marked it in the photo. I called Vince at the factory and asked about the purpose of this 60 amp fuse in that area and he replied that it was not something that the factory had installed. That leads me to believe that my original installer didn't follow the written directions from Progressive Dynamics and installed my converter in the manner that Larry described! I think Larry gets BINGO on this mystery. To confirm this, when I get home, I will test the charging voltages across my batteries, with and without the two 30 amp fuses installed and see if there is a difference. I will post the results when I get home.
Best,
Gary
Larry Wade was correct in his description on how my converter was wired 8 years ago. See his last message on this thread for the details.
I pulled both 30 amp fuses in the fuse box and tested my battery voltages with my generator running and they read 14.32 volts. Putting them back in made no difference in the readings. Mystery solved and I learned a lot. Thanks everyone.
Gary
Gary, just as a measure, make sure all those connections are tight on that ground bus ( splice) that shows up in your picture.
Just the kind of spot a loose connection could show up and give a problem some time.
Jon
I will. Thanks Jon.
Gary