Greetings all,
I hope spring is being kind to you wherever you are. I have a question/concern...I am planning on calling Vince at the factory, but I wanted to run this by you all here to see if anyone else has had this issue. I own a 2016 MB Lazy Daze. So we are heading to just about three years old. Already I have noticed that the paint on my LD is cracking and chipping off. NOT good I know. Has anyone else dealt with this? We have had this covered when not in use, until a few months ago. I have included photos of some of the cracking (which is mostly on the underside of the panels where the level changes on the side - make sense?). Also the rubber area on the roof is chipping off badly. Yes, in the pictures my RV is dirty, because I am afraid to wash it, for fear of more paint chipping. I can assure you though I have been washing and waxing it several times per year. Any info would be greatly appreciated, before I call Vince. Thank you!
-Rebecca Winters
2016 MB
Just a question, Rebecca. Are you the original owner?
Just a question, Rebecca. Are you the original owner?
Yes, I am.
Wow, not what I would expect with less than 3 years on any coach.
I hope you get it taken care of and with an explanation.
I am on the list so watching closely.
"...the paint on my LD is cracking and chipping off."
Rebecca
Not only is it NOT good, in my estimation it's practically unheard of. I suggest that you do not wait to make that call to Vince, and if possible send him the photos. This may cost you a trip the factory but they will most certainly make it good again. :-\
Oh, and there is NO rubber on your roof.
Just a thought, Rebecca - this seems highly unusual for such a young rig, but you say it was covered? Did you mean a carport or a fabric cover? The latter is more likely to cause the problems you noted, as it will trap moisture and humidity and provide the sort of environment where corrosion can occur. In wet environments such covers should only be used during a storm or in hot, dry weather. They should be removed after the storm to let the rig be exposed to air movement. In your state, you should probably avoid them altogether.
Oh, if you did use such a cover, do NOT mention that to the mothership!
Steve
I can think of several possible causes for this damage : poor surface preparation before painting, poor paint and/or ‘curing’, inappropriate products used when washing or waxing the rig leading to paint deterioration, and moisture and dirt (there appears to be a lot of ‘dirt’ build-up in the joints) trapped under an RV ‘cover’ and/or surface wear/abrasion from the cover. There may be additional causes, but at the least, this condition is very unusual on a 3-4 year old rig; IMO, it needs to be checked out by the factory.
Rebecca,
Our ‘15 has similar “cracking” of the paint below the panels as they join one another on the sides of the rig. (See attached pics)
I attributed it to “flex” of the coach during travel and possible “shrinking” of the paint as it dried over the past 3 1/2 years (although I did notice it within a year or so of bringing it home).
I figured a small touch up along the lower edges of the panels in the effected areas would solve the issue. Perhaps I’ll call Todd & Vince about possible “home” remedies.
The roof seal on our rig shows a bit of wrinkling (no pics) but no flaking of paint as yours shows.
Here we go again. There’s always something to do with our traveling homes. Even a Lazy Daze.
Kent
Just as an aside: Our rig has its drivers side facing South and while this side does appear to have more of a paint issue it is not isolated to the South facing side alone. So it doesn’t appear to be a Sun issue in as much as a paint issue.
And oh yeah, I don’t “power wash” the rig and use gentle automotive washing liquid and wax with “Nu-Finish”. And the rig has never been covered.
Hmmm, I don’t recall this being an issue on older rigs, even my 15 year old new-to-me LD.
"Hmmm, I don't recall this being an issue on older rigs..."
My 2004 shows no such damage! What's different now? ::)
Thanks everyone for your input. (I knew someone was going to mention that it wasn't rubber on my roof - I just don't know what it is ;) ). My RV had been parked under a carport at a nice RV storage facility, but a recent change in income made the $225/month payment a little too pricey for me. So I decided to park it in my driveway at home. Yes, my RV is pretty dirty, because it has not been washed recently and I live in a forested area. I have washed it with the same car wash that I use on my old (18yr) car, and the wax I use is 'LD forum approved' - he he. I will contact Vince on Monday and see what he has to say. It is interesting Kent that you have a similar issue as I do.
Thanks again everyone for your input. I'll let you know what Vince says - for your curiosity and for future reference.
Kent, you may want to contact the factory as well.
Yes, Rebecca, please let us know what Vince says and best of luck!
Dear Rebecca,
When looking at your thumbnail photos, I believe your last picture shows cracking paint on the roof seam. The factory uses Loctite Polyurethane PL sealant on the roof seams. In past years, the factory applied the Loctite sealant sparingly. In more recent applications, they generously apply it with the finished result being quite thick. "More is better" seems to be the thought process. However, your sealant appears to have been painted and is now flaking away. There is no need to paint the roof sealant and if it was intentionally painted, it is sure to flake away. The 3 year old roof sealant is most certainly doing just fine and I wouldn't be concerned. However, your other photos reveal legitimate concerns. I would agree with others in our group that both you and Kent should take a trip to the factory asap. Remember to share the diagnosis and remedy with the rest of us!
Best,
Gary
My 2003 (kept outside, not under cover) does not have these cracking or chipping issues. I looked up the spec sheet for a 2003; the paint is listed as 'polyurethane paint, Imron type'. Spec sheets for 2014 and 2015 models (no 2016 was listed on the Techsnoz site) list the paint only as 'polyurethane'. 2007 appears to be the last year that 'Imron' polyurethane was used; this coincided with the 2008 change to the 'swoop and swirl' paint design.
I know that Imron was/is a very toxic paint, and I recall there being CA environmental law changes that affected the LD paint product and facility; perhaps someone with knowledge of the specifics might post with information. It would be interesting to find out how many owners of post-2008 LDs have had paint chipping and cracking issues, and in which model years these issues appear to be more serious or frequent.
I have a 2017 MB and I also have "cracking" of the paint in the same spots as Rebecca and Kent. I noticed them within the first year of ownership. Like Kent, I figured it was attributed to "flexing" of the coach that also causes cracking of end caps. I did not have this issue with the 2002 MB I had for 15 years.
"Like Kent, I figured it was attributed to "flexing" of the coach that also causes cracking of end caps."
---
An RV is definitely subject to some heavy stresses going down the road, and 'flex' likely does contribute to some end cap separation and minor surface cracks, but your 2002 'flexed', and my 2003 'flexes', and neither of those (per your report and my experience) had/have the paint cracking issues shown in the photos. I believe that the issues are due to poor surface preparation, the paint itself, and/or a combination of both.
I recall seeing 2 newly-delivered 2008s; this was the first year of the new design. I was surprised at the low quality of the paint and roof seal application on each. There were areas of minor paint 'bubbling' on the rear and under a few of the 'swoops', and there was 'edge bleed' on some of the swoops and lines, as if the stencils hadn't been tightly affixed to the surface. The roof seal was a 'sloppy gloppy' trowel-on job. 2008 was a year of 'change' for LD: model changes, overall economic downturn, LD downsizing and employee turnover, and likely several other factors of which I'm not aware, may well have contributed to these issues. However, the factory - by all indicators that I can see - has stabilized and has been ticking along very well for the past few years, and Steve does the painting, so it seems likely to me that the cracking, chipping paint on later models is a product issue.
As ever, YMMV.
I own a 2014. I don't seem to have that issue. I just looked. As an aside and this is no surprise, it's raining. I took my cell phone just in case. Later today I'll get on the roof but as of this moment no problems.
The twist and turn issue -- we take 'Baxter' down some 'awful' roads. In fact there are times I wonder why I haven't ripped off the waste pipe assembly. I'm saying that to say that shouldn't be an reason for paint chipping or cracking.
From the images it looks like to me that some sort of sealant is degrading. I'm like the others interested in what the facotry has to say.
glen
“Steve does the painting . . .”
The owner does the painting?
"The owner does the painting?"
----
Steve is a hands-on-the-design-and-production-line owner, not a sit-in-the-front-office owner; as far as I know, yes, he does the painting.
"The owner does the painting?"
----
Steve is a hands-on-the-design-and-production-line owner, not a sit-in-the-front-office owner; as far as I know, yes, he does the painting.
While Steve is involved in all aspects of production, I seriously doubt he personally paints each or any LDs.
Auto painting a skill and trade, he employees one or more experienced painters.
FYI, auto polyurethane paints are all two-part and very toxic, requiring special safety equipment and a filtered air supply.
Not sure what is happening to Rebecca's LD but I don't like the cracking along the seams, especially in the second photo.
Only the roof seam looks OK, paint doesn't stick well to polyurethane sealant. I have seen LDs with painted seams and others
where the seam sealant was applied after painting. Maybe they do it differently on different days of the week.
I agree with Steve, covering an RV, in a humid environment, isn't a good idea. A cover holds moisture, even when it's not raining.
Our LD is 16 years old, with 114,000 miles, has always lived uncovered outside and not experienced the cracking seen here.
I hope we get to find out what they Mothership has to say about Rebecca's rig and what, if anything , they are willing to do.
It may be just cosmetic, hard to say without up a close up inspection.
Larry
"While Steve is involved in all aspects of production, I seriously doubt he personally paints each or any LDs."
---
I remember your telling me that Steve paints the rigs; is my memory on the fritz again!? ::)
"While Steve is involved in all aspects of production, I seriously doubt he personally paints each or any LDs."
---
I remember your telling me that Steve paints the rigs; is my memory on the fritz again!? ::)
Were you talking to me or my evil twin brother?
Can't imagine myself telling you this.
Larry
I was probably standing too close to the exhaust pipe again.... ;)
Looking at the various pics, it looks like they have a caulk of some sort applied to the seams. My '08 MB, classic paint, does not have sealant showing there. Again, looking at the pics, some of the cracks are a diagonal stress pattern, clearly indicating that the two panels are shifting relative to one another, stressing the sealant, which causes the less flexible paint to crack.
SO - When did LD start adding sealant to those seams? And when did they begin to caulk around the window frame edges, as shown in Kent's 4th photo?
I will be very interested in the factory's response.
Ken F in NM
The aluminum skin has sealant applied along the seams. When removing the skins you much work a knife into the seams and break away the sealant before the skins will come loose (easier said than done).
Interestingly enough there are spots in my seams that you can easily apply pressure and see movement between the skin panels as if no caulk existed, it may be possible that only portions of the panels are caulked...if this wasn’t the case I imagine removing the larger side skins would be extremely difficult. Truthfully sealant would only be required where the seams intersected a joint like a window or door or end cap. I am fairly confident the loose skin seams on my rig are not caused by rot but instead were just never sealed by the mothership.
Here’s the scoop on the paint issues Rebecca and the rest of us are experiencing.
The panels on the rig are sealed from water intrusion and apparently the combination of the coach flexing and the paints inability to adhere to the caulking/sealant results in some of the later model years having paint that cracks as our photos have illustrated.
After speaking with Vince, I have decided to address the issue by making the needed repairs myself. I know, some here may feel it is a manufacturing defecf, but our rig is going on four years old at this point. If it had happened within the first year of ownership, I’m certain LD would have said to bring it in immediately.
On top of that, I actually feel that our great state of California had thrown LD under the bus and gave them few options. Perhaps LD has already figured out how to address the issue. I didn’t ask. I preferred to be cordial at all times.
Todd and Vince have always done right by me and I’m ok with the direction I am taking with this. As the Mothership can not mail the paint (I can just drive up to Montclair and pick it up), they can supply the paint numbers and anyone who needs it can pick it up in their area.
Just a thought here, if your rig is less than a year old, it would be advisable to keep an eye on the paint as outlined on this thread.
That’s all I’ve got. I suppose you could have LD paint it themselves, but the price and unconvince would, no doubt, be significant.
Hope this helps,
Kent
Kent, what exactly do you intend to do about those cracks? Are you planning to add some sort of sealant/caulking before painting the cracks? And what do you think would happen if you did nothing?
My suspicion is that the cracking of the paint is a cosmetic issue. I think when they started the new paint scheme, they wanted a more uniform look where the swoops crossed the sections of aluminum, therefore they used a sealant and paint. With the "traditional" paint pattern, the colors changed at the seams, so the break in color didn't seem so obvious. I base these opinions on my 2003 having an actual seam between sections that I sometimes clean out with an old toothbrush.
Sometimes older and simpler is better. Just my 2 cents.
Steve K
Steve K. Our 2009 has the newer paint scheme but there isn’t any caulking between the panels. Apparently that was a Factory change some time after our model year.
Steve,
I asked Vince about what was to be done about the flaking of paint in certain areas. As he is always a very busy man, I did not want to keep him too long on the phone figuring that a face-to-face Q&A would be better. With that, however, he did state that no matter how I approached the paint application (I’m thinking of a light wet sanding of the paint in question) it was paramount to clean the affected area with plenty of acetone prior to applying the paint to insure proper adhesion.
Using painters tape to mask off the seams, I will take my time and work myself slowly around the coach one small section at a time. Being retired has its advantages.
When I swing by the factory, I hope to meet up with Vince to get more advice on how to complete the task. No doubt, others here have some ideas on the matter. Either way, I’m in no great hurry.
Steve, Vince said it was all cosmetic so doing nothing would most likely not cause water intrusion, however, it may allow the splitting of the paint to travel beyond the seams and begin affecting the sides of the coach. This is not something I am willing to risk.
Best of luck to all of us and thanks, Rebecca, for broaching the topic. It had actually slipped my mind (not too difficult to do). 🤯
Kent
In an attempt to find leaks in a friend's rig, we performed a pressure test on her LD.
We taped off all the places where we expected leaks, around the doors and windows.
Then the dash A/C's fan was set to high speed, as well as the two Fantastic Fans were set to blow inward, on high speed .
Next the exterior was painted with soapy water, to form bubbles where ever there was adequate leakage.
Several of the seams blew bubbles.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/5168/5344858725_d4f722713c.jpg)
Leak detection | Flickr (https://www.flickr.com/photos/lwade/sets/72157625671994909/)
Larry
Kent, thanks for the reply and explanation. I hope your repair attempt goes well.
Folks sharing problems and their solutions is what continues to make the group a must read every day. Thanks to all who share their knowledge, project results, and inspire us all!
Steve K.
What is the warranty period on paint?
Hey everyone, I called Vince yesterday AM and sent him some photos, then I called him this afternoon to see what his thoughts were. Pretty much what Kent said, Vince said to me. He said that when they build the RV they put the panels on, then they caulk the seams, then they paint it. (in basic terms) He said that the paint does not stick to the caulking as well as it sticks to the other surfaces, so when the coach flexes etc, it is more likely to crack in those areas. He said the cracking is just cosmetic. Like Kent said, Vince's suggestion was to clean it with acetone before painting it, if I chose to do so.
For now, my first action is to wash my RV. Then I will decide about painting the cracks, and which places truly need it, if any.
-Rebecca
Larry,
Greg inquired in regards to the warranty of the LD paint. Looking through the LD manual, I located the section which states that the frame of the LD is warrantied for life for the original owner. It further states that this warranty is void if proper maintenance is not observed by the owner.
Your photos of the leaking seams begs the question, “Are all Lazy Daze panels sealed and do these seals need periodic maintenance to insure the seal”?
What sealant would be used? How often would this need to be done. Roof seals by the factory are given a 7 year life expectancy. Also, as panel seams are painted would simply applying a coat of paint suffice as a sealant.
Just curious for those of us who want to maintain our lifetime frame warranty.
Kent
For me this topic has gone from concerned to disappointment.
I am actually going to see Todd next week, I will bring this up.
Looking, as a possible new purchaser, this issue concerns me as well so will look forward to hearing your report after talking to the mothership.
Thanks, Kent. It’s good to know that Lazy Daze still carries the lifetime frame warranty (to the original owner, right?) but I don’t know if this issue would affect that. I’m wondering if there is a separate warranty for paint related issues? Perhaps it’s not a written thing but just implied that the factory will take care of it’s customers but for how long? In my mind, this is a manufacturing defect. It may be only cosmetic but peeling and cracking paint after only a few years would be unacceptable to me.
I am currently at a gathering of several LDs (and SOBs). The ages of the LDs run from 1996 to 2017; none of the LDs, including the 2015 and the 2017, show *any* visible sealant showing along the lap joints of the siding panels, and none, including the 2015 and the 2017 (or the 2010) show any ‘paint cracking’ in those areas.
I don’t know how widespread this issue may be, or which model years it may affect, but It seems to me that gathering a *lot* more evidence, i.e., owner reports and photos of rigs which may be within the ‘years of concern’, before making a decision on whether to consider an LD is a good move.
As ever, YMMV.
Thanks for the info, Joan. Good idea. Hopefully those that have this issue will bring it up to the factory so the issue can be analyzed and hopefully corrected in the future. Perhaps we can start a poll here on the forum?
I would be highly surprised to discover that LD commonly does warranty repairs on the framework. They void the warranty if sealing/maintenance is not up to date...and the only way for leaks/damage to really occur is if maintenance/sealing is neglected.
If a leak/damage occurred within the first year or two due to improper construction I’d see that being covered...but long term “lifetime” warranty work is not something to count on. Not saying Lazy Daze is scamming anyone, there just wouldn’t be a need for framework repair if the coach is maintained to begin with. Lifetime warranties are good sales tools, obviously my name isn’t stenciled on the side of my rig so I don’t have much to go on....but i don’t exacty see many threads here in the community of people haveing their coaches rebuilt by LD under warranty.
As far as sealing the panels its tricky, the sealant is applied by hand obviously so variations mean in rare cases it could work out of the seam and end up painted, and therefore end up chipping. No sure what Lazy Daze can do about this.
I would however like to call Vince and get his opinion about panel seams that are obviously “free floating” after a few decades....I’m guessing the sealant/joint has just loosened over time but the lap joint should be doing a good job of keeping water out still.
For me this topic has gone from concerned to disappointment.
I am actually going to see Todd next week, I will bring this up.
Please report to us how Todd addresses this issue.
Chris
I located the section which states that the frame of the LD is warrantied for life for the original owner. It further states that this warranty is void if proper maintenance is not observed by the owner.
Your photos of the leaking seams begs the question, “Are all Lazy Daze panels sealed and do these seals need periodic maintenance to insure the seal”?
What sealant would be used? How often would this need to be done. R
For some reason, LD apparently sealed one or more seams on Rebecca's LD, with more sealant than necessary and what we are seeing is the squeeze-out. Other than the cosmetics, if the cracking is just the paint on the surface of the sealant, there is nothing that needs to be done. You can attempt to repaint the cracking but the underlying cause, flexing of the coach, is an ongoing situation and any added paint will crack again.
In over 20 years, have not seen damage caused by leaking panels, I'm thinking it is mostly a non-issue. I see damage around the end seams and end caps.
On the rig shown in the photo, there was a leak in the cabover seams. Not knowing they were the source of the leak, I went ahead and caulked the seams with clear sealant, I believe I used clear Big Stretch.
Sashco Big Stretch Acrylic Latex High Performance Caulking Sealant, 10.5 oz... (https://www.amazon.com/Sashco-Stretch-Performance-Caulking-Cartridge/dp/B000H5VRFK?psc=1&SubscriptionId=AKIAILSHYYTFIVPWUY6Q&tag=duckduckgo-d-)
Big Stretch is an acrylic sealant that does not have as long a life as polyurethane sealant. Since the seams covered colored area, we didn't want white streaks passing though the colored areas. Unfortunately, polyurethane only comes unblock and white.
Larry
I don’t believe that the intent of this discussion was to throw a disparaging light on the build quality of our Lazy Daze’s. Rather it was a quest for an answer as how to address an issue some of us have experienced with our rigs as is often the case with such inquiries.
My conversation with Vince was straight and to the point, “What can be done? What steps do “I” take? I cast no blame on the Mothership. Things happen for whatever reason.
The take on this is, for me, clean it up and move on. That’s what I’m going to do. Pretty simple.
Kent
I don’t believe that the intent of this discussion was to throw a disparaging light on the build quality of our Lazy Daze’s. Rather it was a quest for an answer as how to address an issue some of us have experienced with our rigs as is often the case with such inquiries.
Now we know that the 'crack' is a seam overfilled with sealant. It isn't something likely to cause damage, at worse, it's a cosmetic issue. Once again. I have not seen damaged caused by leaking panels, only leaking end seams .
Another non-issue solved.
Larry
Larry, I have to disagree that this is a non-issue, at least for some of us. Obviously, some folks don't have a problem with cracked and flaking paint, be it in the seams or elsewhere, but it seems (pun intended) some do. As Kent so rightly points out, it is a legitimate concern and not meant to disparage our favorite class C.
I guess when it comes to RV's, there certainly are lowered expectations. Could you imagine spending over $100K on a Tesla, Lamborghini, or some some other high-end vehicle and have the paint in the seams cracking after a few years?
I don't know if LD can do anything about this issue but I would like to just know how pervasive this (perceived) problem is. This was not an issue on earlier year LD's, as far as I know, so I would like to know what has recently changed? I think someone (Joan perhaps?) mentioned that LD changed their paint some years back when they switched to the swoops and swirls scheme. I'm not sure, but if enough owners bring up the issue, perhaps Steve can analyze it and find a better solution than just accepting that this is the way it is, much like he did for the end cap issue.
I hope no one is offended by my concerns as that is not my intent. There are some quirky things that I don't like about Lazy Daze but it's still the best class C out there (IMHO)! :)
Given the panel configuration where fluid naturally falls out, if you want to properly fill those gaps, then the thing to do is to turn the rig over and let the sealer ooze 'down' into the space. Let it set before turning it right-side up again. Be sure to empty all the tanks before doing this. I don't know if Larry has done it just this way before.
;)
joel
Larry, I have to disagree that this is a non-issue, at least for some of us. Obviously, some folks don't have a problem with cracked and flaking paint, be it in the seams or elsewhere, but it seems (pun intended) some do. As Kent so rightly points out, it is a legitimate concern and not meant to disparage our favorite class C.
My point is that while is unsightly, it's a cosmetic issue and LD isn't to likely to do much, since it shouldn't effect the longevity of the coach. I wouldn't be pleased either but LD may not consider this to be a serious fault or flaw.
Was this a fluke or does the Factory now overfill the seams, where the panels meet? That's the question and I will be looking at all the newer models we run across. Fully filling the seams was not done in the past and there doesn't seem be reason to do so now...only the Mothership knows why.
Once Steve hears about this or another problem more than few times, he will do something about it.
Rebecca and Kent should be on the phone questioning Steve about this issue, it's where we will find the facts.
The rest of us are just speculating and spreading rumors about the causes of the problem.
Larry
Given the panel configuration where fluid naturally falls out, if you want to properly fill those gaps, then the thing to do is to turn the rig over and let the sealer ooze 'down' into the space. Let it set before turning it right-side up again. Be sure to empty all the tanks before doing this. I don't know if Larry has done it just this way before.
Joel
Oh sure, I have a super-size RV rotisserie in the backyard. With it, washing the roof is a snap and a it's surprisingly easy way to drain the engine and transmission fluids.
https://carotator.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Carotator_white.jpg
auto body rotisseries at DuckDuckGo (https://duckduckgo.com/?q=auto+body+rotisseries&atb=v32-7a_&iar=images&iax=images&ia=images&iai=https%3A%2F%2Fcarotator.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2017%2F03%2FCarotator_white.jpg)
For a car restorer a rotisserie is very handy for body-off, full restorations.
I would rather have a RV-capable lift in the driveway.
Larry
I asked Vince about what was to be done about the flaking of paint in certain areas...he did state that no matter how I approached the paint application (I’m thinking of a light wet sanding of the paint in question) it was paramount to clean the affected area with plenty of acetone prior to applying the paint to insure proper adhesion.
Using painters tape to mask off the seams, I will take my time and work myself slowly around the coach one small section at a time...
Vince said it was all cosmetic so doing nothing would most likely not cause water intrusion, however, it may allow the splitting of the paint to travel beyond the seams and begin affecting the sides of the coach.
Kent
Wondering if this is something to be done just once or if this would become a maintenance task (needing to be done whenever cracks reappear). Any ideas?
Kit,
I’ll be taking a wait and see approach. Paint will be applied to a small section, possibly several inches at first, then I’ll leave it alone and see how well it holds up. It may take several months before I finish this project.
I’ll post pics as I go.
Kent
Was wondering if anyone has followed up with the Mothership on this issue? How about current owners that have this problem, any updates?