At the bottom of the Ford website page for the E-Series Cutaway chassis ( 2019 Ford® E-Series Cutaway | The Power You Need to Move Your Business |... (https://www.ford.com/commercial-trucks/e-series-cutaway/) ) this popped up.
"The new 2021 Ford E-Series Cutaway is ready to build on, with a new 7.3L V8 engine standard. And behind the wheel, there’s even more that’s new. There’s a refreshed interior, as well as a variety of new driver-assist features – including Pre-Collision Assist with Automatic Emergency Braking (AEB), Adaptive Cruise Control (ACC) and Lane Departure Warning to help you drive with confidence."
Big changes coming. No mention yet about the E-Series and the new 10 speed 10R140 transmission which releases at the end of this year in the Super Duty truck line though.
Charles
That's exciting news, thanks for sharing!
That's exciting news, thanks for sharing!
Unless things have changed since '02, it would be nice to have a heater that you could adjust to dash and floor at the same time.
Chris
Unless things have changed since '02, it would be nice to have a heater that you could adjust to dash and floor at the same time.
After my previous '85, I'd be happy to just have cab AC that works. Come to think of it, coach AC (instead of a swamp cooler) would be nice too! ;D
What about the 2020? Is that going to be the v10 or v8?
Is the 7.3L “brand new” or has it been used in other applications?
Is the 7.3L “brand new” or has it been used in other applications?
The 7.3l pushrod V8 is a brand new design and will be released in the 2020 MY F-Series Super Duty pickups later this year. The 10-speed 10R140 transmission also releases at the same time. This has been discussed all over the net for at least the last 8-10 weeks. Up until now Ford has never said a thing about this new engine and the E-Series. Word is Ford has begun shutting down the V10 production, if it hasn't already. New Ford F-Series Super Duty Pickup Raises Bar Again with Next-Level... (http://www.campaign.ford.com/content/fordmedia/fna/us/en/news/2019/02/05/new-ford-f-series-super-duty-pickup-raises-bar-again.html)
Here is a video about this new engine https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FtNlfAbc2w
Charles
What about the 2020? Is that going to be the v10 or v8?
From what Ford has said it appears the 2020 E-Series engine will be the V10.
Charles
After watching the video and reading more about it, I think this newly designed engine holds much promise. I like the fact that they designed it as a package with the 10-speed transmission so anticipate the 2021 E-series chassis will include it.
When I first heard it was a 7.3 liter engine, I was thinking that must be a heavy sucker and was concerned if it would reduce the GVWR of the 2021 chassis but I don’t think that will be an issue. It may even increase it but guess we’ll need to wait until the official specs are published.
This is good news for future Class C and A buyers. The 7.3-L engine. with a 10 speed transmission will be a huge improvement and should provide better mileage, as well as more power. It may give the E450 many more years of life.
The 7.3 is a switch back to a more conventional, low RPM, push-rod truck engine.
The V10 is an overhead cam engine, designed to run for long periods at high RPMs, it was a big change from conventional truck push-rod engines, which operate at lower RPMs.
The 7.3 was specifically designed for heavy duty applications and towing, it should provide a more pleasant driving experience. Combined with the new 10-speed transmission, there will always be a gear that keeps the engine's RPM in its most efficient range, for best power and mileage.
With the change to a new engine and transmission, I would wait a year or two before buying, to allow bugs to be worked out.
It took Ford 6 years to debug the V10 and 4L100 transmission.
Now if Ford raised the E450's GVW one or two thousand pounds, things could get even more interesting .
More CC could be available if Ford light-weighted the cab, with aluminum, and used high-strength steel in the frame, Engineering and materials have improved quite a bit during the last thirty years, the E-series last complete redesign was in 1992 . Reducing weight has become a religion in the auto industry.
Ford could widen the cab to match the wide-body rear axle, the increased leg room would be appreciated.
If the overall chassis dimensions remains the same, as the old, this could extend the life of Lazy Daze until the day Steve retires or sells the company.
Stay tuned.
We had dinner tonight will two other LD couples and were wondering if an older coach could lifted and transferred to a new chassis.
Maybe, the coach bolts onto the frame and bare cutaways are available.
Larry
"Pre-Collision Assist with Automatic Emergency Braking (AEB), Adaptive Cruise Control (ACC) and Lane Departure Warning to help you drive with confidence."
A few weeks ago we brought our first new car in 30 years (we are not car folk). I love the above features on our new car. If that same stuff comes to the RV world it would make driving more joyful and safer no doubt.
I'm waiting for the gadget that disables the driver's cell phone when the engine starts! >:(
Our ‘17 Outback came with a variety of these new safety features. It was our first experience with these features and while I must admit they were a bit overwhelming at first, I would not buy another vehicle without them. I especially like the adaptive cruise control, and the pre-collision braking and rear cross traffic alert has saved my bacon more than once in the two years we have owned the Subaru!
I'm waiting for the gadget that disables the driver's cell phone when the engine starts! >:(
You and me both!
Charles
More info for Larry and Greg:
By the time this new engine/transmission system makes its way to the E-Series and to market there will already be about one year of actual commercial and consumer use. Though there will not be any long-term history I would expect any major issues would be reported by then. And I would hope that Ford engineering has learned from the early V10 and 4L100 transmission fiascos.
Re the new V8: Per Ford the company's engineers created the new 7.3-liter pushrod V-8 with the primary goal being improved fuel economy. Initially it will be port fuel injected but it was designed for both port and direct injection; many new cars now use both for optimal efficiency. Ford has not released the installed weight of this engine; there is speculation that the final block material has not been pinned down. I would hope that the V8 weighs less than the V10, it certainly is much more compact.
Re the new transmission: The Ford-designed 10R140 TorqShift 10-speed replaces the 6R140 in some 2020 MY Ford Super Duty trucks. It shares the same basic architecture of the 10R80 which was a joint Ford-GM design, so it has the same number and arrangement of clutches and planetary sets. All the 10R140’s drive hardware is beefier than in the 10R80, with the two transmissions sharing only 7% of the components. The 10R80 was released with the 2017 Ford F-150 pickup.
Chatles
Charles, are you wearing your 'cloak of invisibility' in Ford's design and engineering center? ;)
So Charles, if you were in the market, are you saying you would feel comfortable buying a 2021 Lazy Daze on the new chassis? Or would you wait a year?
So Charles, if you were in the market, are you saying you would feel comfortable buying a 2021 Lazy Daze on the new chassis? Or would you wait a year?
Greg, at this point I would not jump on a 2021 LD but that is because there isn't any real-time data and info out there since no one has even had the opportunity to see, let alone test, this new combo. In a year my position could change. But I might put an order in and wait and see, could always pass and wait some more. ;)
Charles
Charles, are you wearing your 'cloak of invisibility' in Ford's design and engineering center? ;)
Hahaha. :) :) :) Joan, just sharing real information and some speculation I've come across in my research. Rumors of a Ford "Godzilla" V8 have been been floating around for over a year.
Charles
I'm waiting for the mid-sized Ranger to de-bug. ;)
I'm waiting for the gadget that disables the driver's cell phone when the engine starts! >:(
<smile> don't know 'bout other car systems but in the Toyota Highlander when you connect your cell into the system it will allow a notice of a text message to come thru but will not let you read it unless and until the car is stopped.
BTW some cell phones have a default setting that do the same thing if it thinks it is going faster than 15 MPH.
glen
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FtNlfAbc2w
We are staying at “Paradise By The Sea” RV Resort in Oceanside. From there we took the Jeep down to Del Mar fairgrounds to see the GoodGuys annual car show. Ford Motor Co. had a demonstration and parts trailer set up there. They also had John, the technician and answer man, to answer questions. I asked him if they were providing mpg, horsepower Ann torque numbers yet. He said all the numbers would be relatively similar to the 6.7L diesel. When asked if it would be available in the E450 platform he said yes. He said the numbers would be coming out in the early summer.
Has anyone heard any updates on the 2021 chassis?
Lots of good info in the attached PDF.
Lots of good info in the attached PDF.
Interesting peek at the upcoming 2021 E-series, wish there were some specs pertaining to 5.2 V8's horse power and torque, as well as any changes to the GVW, brakes or towing capacity.
Some of the new safety features are impressive, basically the same as available in Ford's cars.
"NEW SMART DRIVER-ASSIST TECHNOLOGY
PACKAGES – OPTIONAL
– Automatic Emergency Braking
– Lane Departure Warning
– Forward Collision Warning
– Post-Impact Braking
– Adaptive Cruise Control
– Distance Alert
– Driver Monitoring
– Auto High Beam Control"
"- Dual alternator (240/157 amp)"
If buying a new LD, installing a good size lithium battery would be temping. With so much 12-volt amperage available from the optional two alternators, high speed recharging is possible, using the engine as the power source.
Running the A/C overnight, on batteries alone, may be feasible without having the run the engine for many hours each day .
Larry
Also wondering if LD would make the optional safety features available to buyers as they would need to purchase the chassis that way, correct?
Well, it appears that Ford is upgrading the E-series in 2021. Now we wait to hear if Lazy Daze will continue to build on the new chassis when it is available.
While we wait and see what will make it to market on the Ford side of things....it's not a safe assumption that Lazy Daze will continue to manufacture if the owner has to invest in retooling due to chassis changes.....a wait and see....
While we wait and see what will make it to market on the Ford side of things....it's not a safe assumption that Lazy Daze will continue to manufacture if the owner has to invest in retooling due to chassis changes.....a wait and see....
Maybe those considering a new model should order in 2020? Could be the end of an era!
I feel the end is likely in site. Limiting production to just the 27', in one or two versions, may be enough to keep the ball rolling if Steve wants to continue. It would simplify production and maybe allow for 5 more years under current ownership. I'm assuming the business would not be sold and the real estate cashed in. Frank
Well, it appears that Ford is upgrading the E-series in 2021. Now we wait to hear if Lazy Daze will continue to build on the new chassis when it is available.
I have seen or read nothing the indicates a change in the cab or chassis, only a new engine and transmission.
This should not require any major changes in the frames so LD's various models should continue to fit. LD had to slightly modify things when the six-speed transmission was introduced, the same may occur with the new engine/transmission combination. The new, 10-speed transmission is just slightly bigger than the six-speed it replaces and the new engine is smaller in size than the V10, so little or no modifications may be necessary.
All About the Ford/GM 10-Speed Automatic Transmission (https://www.caranddriver.com/features/g15377492/ford-10-speed-automatic-transmission/)
Yes, at some point Ford will redesign the cab but it may not be so different that the existing models can't be adjusted to fit.
The E450 chassis will likely continued in some variation, there will always be the need for heavy duty cargo vans and cutaways for the commercial market .
LD will most likely end when Steve hangs it up. Could be next week or ten years from now.
Stay tuned.
Larry
LD will most likely end when Steve hangs it up. Could be next week or ten years from now.
Stay tuned.
Larry
Pretty sure he doesn't even know when that will be.....
Lazy Daze will not be sold to an investment group for several years - there are many key indicators that would suggest this process has begun. Nor will they just close up shop and sell everything since their name and style of RV is truly one-of-a-kind and quite valuable.
I have been with two companies that have been sold - one small and private, the other large and international. The indicators were there years in advance and the only difference was the scale. Everyone will know what is taking place while leadership will deny but while confirming they are always open to discuss offers :)
LD doesn't make enough money to interest an investment group if you estimate production at 100 units a year. The success of the company is based primarily on the efforts of the owner and a few key employees who make it all work. The rank and file can't be overlooked although they are trained and motivated by the core employees.
The value of the real estate over shadows the value of the business. Buying it with the business won't work. Too expensive. Renting it won't work. Too expensive. Moving the business to a new location after paying for it.... not feasible.
I see no way practical way to cash in on the value of the business itself in this somewhat unusual situation. Maybe somebody does... Frank
Lazy Daze will not be sold to an investment group for several years - there are many key indicators that would suggest this process has begun. Nor will they just close up shop and sell everything since their name and style of RV is truly one-of-a-kind and quite valuable.
I have been with two companies that have been sold - one small and private, the other large and international. The indicators were there years in advance and the only difference was the scale. Everyone will know what is taking place while leadership will deny but while confirming they are always open to discuss offers :)
"there are many key indicators that would suggest this process has begun"Chet, please share your crystal ball indicators with us.Chris
Guesses * buys vehicles on the open market
sells 100 a year
has 25 employees
Ford E450 cost retail $34,000 *100 = $3,400,000.
Average wage in California is $52,00*25 = $1,300,000.
Wages and vehicle cost = $4,700,000
Average cost of LD is $102,000*100 = $10,200,000.
LD has about $5,500,000 to tease out a profit after other material costs.
With sales in the $10,000,000 range I'd put this company in the mid range worth of $50 to $150 million easily.
Since ALL the production is paid for after construction I would say this is a very very good business opportunity for a motivated buyer.
<smile> but all of this is a guess. Yours is as good as mine.
glen
Glen, I like your analysis. Perhaps, one change. When we were at the Mothership in April, Todd told us they had 19 employees. I don't know if he counted only production employees or included office personnel as well.
Bob
Man has this thread taken a right hand turn or what?
A couple of points you need to keep in mind on crystal-balling a potential transaction:
A transaction of a manufacturing operation would be valued off of Adjusted EBITDA (earnings before interest, taxes, depreciation and amortization)....basically what they earn by the calculation and then add-back any potential non-recurring costs such as expenses of the family that is run through this privately held entity
The remaining amount of Cost of Goods (COGS) above the direct labor and Ford chassis cost would be substantial...raw material, electronics, appliances, etc.
The Operating expenses would then utilize much of the Gross Profit from the business but since the company is "grandfathered" with various environmental restrictions at this location (mentioned a great deal throughout this site) because of the length of time at this location, their costs would be less. I'd been concerned about if those same "grandfather provisions" would stay intact with a change in ownership. If it were determined that under the local laws that the "newco" (post-transaction) had to change to meet current regulations then you would have to "normalize" the expense into the calculation of the value of the business.
The massive question is the the actual Real Property...it's valuable....and depending on his tax situation he may or may not, want to sell it as part of the transaction.....the property is much bigger than what the actual facility sits on.....this is the bigger question than the actual Lazy Daze question of valuation
Anyways....a company like this would be sold based on a multiple of adjusted EBITDA plus the real estate (if sold as part of the transaction).....and the analysis would need to see how much free cash it throws off to support debt that would be utilized for a transaction......waaaayyyy too complicated for all of us to figure out....now, throw me a set of financials for the last three years and a projection for the next.......then we're talking!! :)
I think 40 to 50 units a year is closer to reality. I looked at the order numbers and compared it to previous orders when we were buying our LD in 2017 to get the number being produced. Of course, they also have a very good repair and maintenance area headed by Vince though I have no way to know what it contributes to EBITA. It was with pleasure to watch Steve do the final inspection of our mid bath, while most other motorhome manufacturers let their customers do the QT. Perhaps after 2008-2009, Steve decided to limit employment and units produce (problems with expanding production again) and ride that horse for awhile. I think it is fantastic that they are able to produce such a quality MH at a reasonable price. JMO
Man has this thread taken a right hand turn or what?
No kidding! Maybe we can split off the thread and call it "Conjectures and Guesstimates about the future of Lazy Daze."? ;D
I'd go with "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?" ::)
"I think 40 to 50 units a year is closer to reality. I looked at the order numbers and compared it to previous orders when we were buying our LD in 2017 to get the number being produced".
I suspect that even 40 units per year may be a VERY optimistic number for new LD production. Some years ago, I saw some sales figures for Class C's by brand; the figures were for the recession period most likely 2009-2011. It was easy to see why Born Free went under. Thankfully Lazy Daze knew how to run their operation in the lean times and has had plenty of service business.
The figures should not be difficult to figure out based on purchase order numbers. Get the P.O.# of a unit delivered in Dec.2017 and one delivered in Dec. 2018 and do the math. For those searching for late model used ones, you will understand how futile that search is. Not much available because they just didn't make many. Find one and grab it!
Back in the good old days of the Yahoo Group, especially the mid 2000's, we kept a delivery database so folks could get a fairly accurate idea of when they could expect their coach to be ready for pick up. I think it was called "Days to delivery"; folks would enter their order date, P.O.# and then their actual delivery date. You didn't need to know how to read a spread sheet to figure out LD was selling around 200-220 units per year. I think they were delivering 1-2 units every day back then, 5 days per week.
For years the reason stated for the long wait time was that there was a shortage of Ford E450 chassis. That was BS, just look at all the rental units and newer companies like Nexus who could get all the chassis they wanted. Just my 2 cents and worth every penny, but I think the good folks at LD have figured out how to stay in business without the headaches of training new workers or dealing with the next downturn in the Rv business.
I did email the Mothership to inquire if they had any advance knowledge of the 2021 chassis. Todd responded and said they will know more later this year when they receive the next model year order guides from Ford. Also, he confirmed current lead time for new orders is 12-18 months.
Hi Everyone,
Been lusting after a 27 ft mid-bath Lazy Daze for years and was hoping to pick up a new used one but as you know they are far and few between and not much break on price. So visited the factory yesterday and thinking I am going to bite the bullet and order new. Don't need it till next June.
I could really use some input regarding the options. In particular....
1. Fabric seats or leatherette
2. CB radio - is this still relevant with smart phones
3. Nav system and backup camera are mandatory but thinking an all-in-one aftermarket install may make more sense
LD install $2400 and it is 2 separate systems
4. Automatic in motion satellite vs one I can set up and move around
LD install $2k and I like to travel to forests and park under trees
5. 2nd solar panel needed?
What are your thoughts after owning your rigs?
Jody Huboard
Encinitas, ca
Jwavegirl@gmail.com
Hi Everyone,
I could really use some input regarding the options. In particular....
1. Fabric seats or leatherette
2. CB radio - is this still relevant with smart phones
3. Nav system and backup camera are mandatory but thinking an all-in-one aftermarket install may make more sense
LD install $2400 and it is 2 separate systems
4. Automatic in motion satellite vs one I can set up and move around
LD install $2k and I like to travel to forests and park under trees
5. 2nd solar panel needed?
1 I would sit in both seats and decide, I find fake leather to be sticky, Our 2003 had 115,000 miles and the fabric captain chairs are still in good shape
2 Forget about a CB, it's next to worthless, FRS radio work better for traveling with friends. The only time we ever use it is at LD Caravan Club's GTG, for morning announcements .
3 Garmin sells dash-top GPSs that have back up cameras available as an option.
4 ? We are not TV people
5 Get the second panel, you can never have too much solar
Happy ordering, take care of this rig and will last many years.
Larry
Welcome, Jody! What Larry said. I would also consider the electric side mirrors and Bilstein shock options.
Jody,
Turn around time for ordering is beyond the 12 month mark and has hovered nearer to 14 months from “waiting list” to delivery.
About our choices...I actually prefer the Ultra Leather cabin chairs. I’d prefer real leather. Cloth seats have never been my cup of tea but wouldn’t let them stop me if I were buying used.
Two panels is a good place to start. Some would prefer AM Solar for all things solar and go without the Motherships panels altogether. We’re happy with our choice of a second panel. More would be nice...someday.
Outside shower...I get quite a bit of use out of ours from dirty doggy feet to muddy shoes. I find it quite handy.
Factory backup camera was our choice, although for some reason the monitor died after 3 years. (Picked up the identical monitor on Amazon) Be that as it may, I’d still get the factory’s installed system.
Hope this helps.
Kent
1. Fabric seats or leatherette
2. CB radio - is this still relevant with smart phones
3. Nav system and backup camera are mandatory but thinking an all-in-one aftermarket install may make more sense
LD install $2400 and it is 2 separate systems
4. Automatic in motion satellite vs one I can set up and move around
LD install $2k and I like to travel to forests and park under trees
5. 2nd solar panel needed?
What are your thoughts after owning your rigs?
Jody Huboard
Encinitas, ca
Jwavegirl@gmail.com
We did fabric...the fake leather was "sticky" to us as well
2. We did it, but a complete waste
3. We did the backup camera then purchased a Garmin Navigation (actually a gift from my brother) that has lifetime updates
4. We camp, don't do TV (like Larry)
5. OF COURSE!!!!!
We also did the "wood grain" and the electric mirrors (a must IMO)....we have a 31' so some things listed as Options came standard on ours...good luck
Hi Jody, Here is my two cent on your post. I'll use italics for my replies.
1. Fabric seats or leatherette
I prefer fabric for comfort. If you have or intend to have pets the leatherette is easier to clean.
2. CB radio - is this still relevant with smart phones
My CB has not be operable for some time. I have not missed it. You should be aware that there are still places in the USA where there is no cell coverage and those places have wonderful views.
3. Nav system and backup camera are mandatory but thinking an all-in-one aftermarket install may make more sense
LD install $2400 and it is 2 separate systems
I don't like in dash Nav systems. They are difficult to update. The new radios with Apple Car Play and the Android equivalent will put google maps and Waze on your radio screen. I recently replaced the factory receiver in the RV with a Pioneer AVH4400. I tend to run a Garmin programed for RV's (on the dash) and Waze on the radio screen. Waze has better traffic and the Garmin keeps me away from low bridges. I update the Garmin before every trip. I also have a 50 state Rand McNally in the RV for planning. You can never have to many maps.
I like the idea of the factory backup camera. Even if it is not as good as what is currently available on the open market. Should you find it is not good enough for you the wiring is already done. The Pioneer's screen can accept a back up camera.
4. Automatic in motion satellite vs one I can set up and move around
LD install $2k and I like to travel to forests and park under trees
I don't do much TV, rather read a book.
5. 2nd solar panel needed?
I agree with Larry. You want more solar.
John
07 MidBath in a proper green for the Mid Atlantic forest.
We had ultra leather on our 06 and cat claws did puncture the material which is why we had the sofa reupholstered in microfiber fabric which we like and found at home that they couldn't damage it.
Jim
I occasionally use my CB radio. When the traffic stops and there are trucks around you can get on the CB and listen. You will learn which lane the accident is in and/or which lane to get in.
Also I think I'm one of the rare LD owners who doesn't really need solar. I quickly found I like my amenities(at least electricity). After losing my 2 solar panels I did not replace them and haven't needed them. I tend to stay at private and state parks with electricity.
BTW, I have added my name to The LD list for a new one. I got the itch about 1.5 years ago and after much looking around decided to go with another LD. My 2008 MB hit 100,000 miles a month or so ago. I've been full timing in it for 10 years.
Pam
I wish the new E50 would offer the 4x4 like the Transit is now offering, wouldn't that be sweet to offer on a smaller coach with slightly higher suspension? Just an idea 8)
"After losing my 2 solar panels..."
Just out of curiosity, how were they lost?