A woman I met at Valley of Fire SP, NV warned me never to fill my fresh water tank from taps in desert regions. She claims it is highly alkaline, and results in scale building on the inside walls of the the tank, thereby making it difficult to obtain readings from tank sensors, such as the SeeLevel ones we have.. Never heard of this. Your thoughts?
Hi Ted,
Yes, desert water tends to be highly alkaline so her comments make sense. In some areas you can actually see it. If you need to fill your fresh water tank, I'd advise using a really good in-line water filter. It's not a perfect solution but will provide "better" water. Still not sure? Fill an empty drinking water bottle, a clear one. Let it sit over night. There will be 'stuff' in the bottom of the bottle. You really don't want to 'see' what you're drinking any more than you want to see what you're breathing.
Happy trails,
Juli W.
Minden, NV
'06 26'5 RB
Fill an empty drinking water bottle, a clear one. Let it sit over night. There will be 'stuff' in the bottom of the bottle.
There is no reason alkali content nor dissolved 'hard' minerals would precipitate out easily in a plastic bottle. Yet, they will react with metals, and may clog up plumbing fixtures with flow. All you would see in the bottle will be insolubles, which a sediment filter can eliminate.
Steve
Thank you, Juli. I have an inline filter, but did a quick survey to see what is out there today. I did not see a filter that LOWERS ph. They filter sediment, chlorine, giardia, cysts, etc., but no mention of lowering ph.
I had a house with a well for 10 years. The ph was very low, like 5.9-6.0 with copper pipes. I installed a neutralizer, that brought the ph up to around 7. However, that resulted in an increase in the hardness of the water, so I had to install a softener system. Only then was the water properly conditioned. So, I am trying to figure out how to map that knowledge to filling the fresh water tank in an LD, by doing the opposite--lowering ph.
So, it seems I am back to square one, but if you are familiar with a filter that will help with this desert water problem, I am all ears.
We dry camp a lot, so having accurate and reliable SeeLevel sensor readings is critical.
Hi Ted,
Yes, desert water tends to be highly alkaline so her comments make sense. In some areas you can actually see it. If you need to fill your fresh water tank, I'd advise using a really good in-line water filter. It's not a perfect solution but will provide "better" water. Still not sure? Fill an empty drinking water bottle, a clear one. Let it sit over night. There will be 'stuff' in the bottom of the bottle. You really don't want to 'see' what you're drinking any more than you want to see what you're breathing.
Happy trails,
Juli W.
Minden, NV
'06 26'5 RB
There is no reason alkali content nor dissolved 'hard' minerals would precipitate out easily in a plastic bottle. Yet, they will react with metals, and may clog up plumbing fixtures with flow. All you would see in the bottle will be insolubles, which a sediment filter can eliminate.
The RV world is full of unproven 'facts'.
Alkali in the water will not interfere with a SeeLevel's readings, nor does it appear to build up on the tank's walls.
If you need water, what else are you going to do? If concerned, flush the fresh water tank when cleaner water is available.
I have run endoscopes into several LD water tanks, including our own 16 year old LD, and have seen nothing but some sand. The walls of the tanks have remained clean.
Before filling from suspicious water supplies, I fill a clear glass to check for cloudiness and taste. If all appears fine, I go ahead and fill the tank.
I rarely use a sediment filter.
Larry
Thanks, Larry. Being a empirically-oriented, data-driven person, I'm going with your observations. I also like your response because the message is: "Stop worrying, stop fussing, and go camping." Sounds good to me. Thanks.
A few thoughts here.
1. Water hardness (dissolved solids) is different from alkalinity (pH). Yes, they can often be found together, but they are separate problems.
2. To the best of my knowledge, no filter can removed dissolved solids. (I think this is also true for alkalinity.) It takes a water softener--either ion-exchange or reverse-osmosis--to do that. That's not saying a filter isn't a good idea for other reasons. I always use one.
3. Hard water can leave mineral deposits on plumbing fixtures, clog the valves and the business ends of faucets, and leave annoying water spots all over. I try to avoid it.
4. You can buy an inexpensive tester (https://www.amazon.com/Accurate-HoneForest-Temperature-0-9990ppm-Aquariums/dp/B073713G5F/ref=sr_1_6?keywords=water+hardness+tester&qid=1549682582&sr=8-6) that measures dissolved solids in parts per million. For example, in the state park where I'm staying at the moment, the water has 580 ppm of dissolved solids. That's pretty common in desert areas. I don't drink or wash with this water. The EPA says anything over 500 ppm is not recommended, so instead, I buy reverse-osmosis (soft) water from any of several local water stores. I'd rather pay 20¢ a gallon than deal with hard water.
Having lived with hard water much of my life in a handful of western states..in the desert, in Denver area, on he CA and WA coast...
It is harder on plumbing fixtures and (appliances don't last as long and sinks etc are harder to clean). It is also harder on our skin and hair.
That said many people do not soften their water though more and more people are drinking bottled or filtered tap water.
We do a filter on the RV and a water softener is on my want list. We drink bottled water - distilled or reverse osmosis.
Jane
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We noticed a huge difference in the innards of our on-board distiller between the water that we put into the tank in Oregon (very soft) and New Mexico and Arizona (very hard).
Thus when filling our fresh water tank, we s l o w l y run the available water through a water softener and then a really good filter as it goes into the tank. This takes about an hour, but it is easy to do - just set it up, set a timer, and go read for a while.
Since we don't drink or cook with tank water, this amount lasts at least a week, so it is not an onerous task. Clearly this won't work if you are filling at a dump/fresh water station, but can easily be done when you are staying in a campground and have a water connection at your site.
Virtual hugs,
Judie
•~•~•~•~•~•~•~•~•~•~•~•~•
The set up itself ran upwards of about $400. to assemble, so it isn't an inexpensive way to go.
I forgot to say one of the signs of hard water is an orange ring - the water line of the toilet is the most common place but it can be at the bottom of sinks where a little water pools and sits just at the drain. This was not seen on tubs or sinks or washing machine walls.
That orange ring/spot could appear within a week with very hard water.
I have no idea if hard water affects tank sensors but I would suspect if the water sat exactly at the sensor level for a long time (a month or three) it might.
While everyone I knew drank our cities very hard tap water when I was growing up with no known side effects, I could not get it down. I drank very little water until I found bottled water brands with very little minerals in them. Those brands and reverse osmosis or distilled water I can drink regular amounts no problem.
Jane
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I buy reverse-osmosis (soft) water from any of several local water stores. I'd rather pay 20¢ a gallon than deal with hard water.
Are you allowed to run a hose, or do you pour bottles of water into the tank?
I missed that word wash that indicates that Andy filled his fresh water tanks from reverse osmosis water he bought.
I saw a video the other day where someone had modified their water pump by adding a Tee and shut off valves to be able to pump water from their five gallon collapsible "jugs" into their fresh water tank. With valves on one configuration and a flexible plastic tube they stuck into their jug, the fresh water tank was filled. Shut off valves in the second configuration and fresh water tank water was used in the rig.
Their water pump was in an outside compartment with pipes easy to reach.
Previous to this they had been lifting the jugs shoulder height and pouring them into a funnel often getting wet and tired in the process.
Sorry I do not have the webpage link but an internet search of water pump fill fresh water tank - or something like that - would likely find it.
I have also read if people putting a whole Rv reverse osmosis system on their RV. When I tracked down the company they bought the unit from, the company had changed hands and no longer sold a while Rv system.
However you would have to fill your Rv at a campground as it create a lot of waste water.
Jane
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All you wanted to know about water .....
The USGS Water Science School: All about water! (https://water.usgs.gov/edu/)
Is hard water safe to drink?
Potential Health Impacts of Hard Water (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3775162/)
The simple answer is no and it is probably more healthy. A small quote from the article above "In most large-scale studies, an inverse relationship between the hardness of drinking-water and cardiovascular disease has been reported."
The conclusion seems to be other than hard water being 'hard' on plumbing fixtures it seems to be safe for humans.
Right, Andy (see my original post), which puts me back to square one in an RV:
1. Is alkalinity (my original question) a problem for fresh water tanks and sensor readings in particular? Larry says "no". Any comments on Larry's observations?
2. If "no" is correct, then end of story. Right now, I am only trying to address the possible effect of high pH on sensor readings.
3. If "no" is not correct, then there seems to be no solution to the alkalinity (pH) problem, assuming you are camping in the desert for more than a few days. I know of no practical way to raise the pH of tap water in an RV and no way to find a practical source of pH-balanced water to fill the tank for extended desert trips.
Comments on this particular issue?
A few thoughts here.
1. Water hardness (dissolved solids) is different from alkalinity (pH). Yes, they can often be found together, but they are separate problems.
2. To the best of my knowledge, no filter can removed dissolved solids. (I think this is also true for alkalinity.) It takes a water softener--either ion-exchange or reverse-osmosis--to do that. That's not saying a filter isn't a good idea for other reasons. I always use one.
3. Hard water can leave mineral deposits on plumbing fixtures, clog the valves and the business ends of faucets, and leave annoying water spots all over. I try to avoid it.
4. You can buy an inexpensive tester (https://www.amazon.com/Accurate-HoneForest-Temperature-0-9990ppm-Aquariums/dp/B073713G5F/ref=sr_1_6?keywords=water+hardness+tester&qid=1549682582&sr=8-6) that measures dissolved solids in parts per million. For example, in the state park where I'm staying at the moment, the water has 580 ppm of dissolved solids. That's pretty common in desert areas. I don't drink or wash with this water. The EPA says anything over 500 ppm is not recommended, so instead, I buy reverse-osmosis (soft) water from any of several local water stores. I'd rather pay 20¢ a gallon than deal with hard water.
"Are you allowed to run a hose, or do you pour bottles of water into the tank?"
In the nearby town I know of three water stores. All three have coin-operated dispensers outside that let you fill up to five-gallon containers. Two of them also have water hoses--one coin-operated, and one available only during business hours. Because I tend to stay in one place for several weeks at a time, I keep my 39-gallon water tank filled using three-gallon Reliance water carriers (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000KA2LOS/ref=oh_aui_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1). (I find five gallons uncomfortable heavy.) I carry a couple of these in my truck, and fill them up every time I go into town, then empty them into my tank when I get back, using the built-in spouts. For a few years I tried using collapsible containers, but while convenient, they soon wore out and developed leaks. I got tired of replacing them, so I switched to the rigid containers.
"Is alkalinity (my original question) a problem for fresh water tanks and sensor readings in particular?"
I can't see why it would be. It should not affect readings of standard "stud-in-tank" sensors that rely on water's conductivity, and the capacitive sensors such as Garnet's SeeLevel II should not be affected either.
"I know of no practical way to raise the pH of tap water in an RV"
I assume you meant "lower" (to change alkaline water to neutral pH). Sure, you could do that: adding a small amount of white vinegar should do it. You'd have to find the correct amount by experimentation, but there's no reason why you couldn't adjust the pH of your tank's water any way you like. But again, unless it's a really extreme case, there's probably no need.
"Are you allowed to run a hose, or do you pour bottles of water into the tank?"
In the nearby town I know of three water stores. All three have coin-operated dispensers outside that let you fill up to five-gallon containers. Two of them also have water hoses--one coin-operated, and one available only during business hours. Because I tend to stay in one place for several weeks at a time, I keep my 39-gallon water tank filled using three-gallon Reliance water carriers (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000KA2LOS/ref=oh_aui_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1). (I find five gallons uncomfortable heavy.) I carry a couple of these in my truck, and fill them up every time I go into town, then empty them into my tank when I get back, using the built-in spouts. For a few years I tried using collapsible containers, but while convenient, they soon wore out and developed leaks. I got tired of replacing them, so I switched to the rigid containers.
"Is alkalinity (my original question) a problem for fresh water tanks and sensor readings in particular?"
I can't see why it would be. It should not affect readings of standard "stud-in-tank" sensors that rely on water's conductivity, and the capacitive sensors such as Garnet's SeeLevel II should not be affected either.
"I know of no practical way to raise the pH of tap water in an RV"
I assume you meant "lower" (to change alkaline water to neutral pH). Sure, you could do that: adding a small amount of white vinegar should do it. You'd have to find the correct amount by experimentation, but there's no reason why you couldn't adjust the pH of your tank's water any way you like. But again, unless it's a really extreme case, there's probably no need.
Sorry. Of course--lower the pH. Interesting idea about adding vinegar, but as you point out, probably not necessary for sensor-reading reliability. Thanks.
Also, thanks to all for responding to this query.
"The set up itself ran upwards of about $400. to assemble, so it isn't an inexpensive way to go."
Adding to my own post . . . here is what my husband made to do the softening and filtering.
Virtual hugs,
Judie <-- Sierra Vista, Arizona
Adventures of Dorrie Anne | Photographing the West (http://dorrieanne.wordpress.com)
Today: Now and Later
********************************
The simple answer is no and it is probably more healthy. A small quote from the article above "In most large-scale studies, an inverse relationship between the hardness of drinking-water and cardiovascular disease has been reported."
The conclusion seems to be other than hard water being 'hard' on plumbing fixtures it seems to be safe for humans.
Unless one has a medical condition aggravated by hard water, could this be the next health drink?
My grandmother lived most of her life in the Imperial Valley. While her home had piped in city water, she alway got her drinking water from a local mineral spring. She said it was healthy to drink, it must have been, she lived to 97.
To a young kid, the spring water tasted terrible, my brother and I refused to drink it. We will probably die young.
Larry.
Lol . Larry I am with you, I just can’t drink hard water. I guess I will die young also and drag DH with me.
Jane, you should look at the bottled drinking water you would buy in a store. If it says anything but distilled, it has had minerals added to it to make it taste better. Magnesium and calcium are common additives. The same things that make for 'hard' water. I spent a lot of time looking for purified water, that actually was just water, to add to my batteries, but had to settle for distilled. I really just wanted reverse osmosis water. Maybe the marketing people just call that distilled, because they don't know the difference.
excerpted from Safeway:
"For the production of "Refreshe" purified drinking waters the addition of very small amounts of high quality grade minerals are added to the reverse osmosis purified water. This produces the clean, refreshing taste of the drinking water." I couldn't find anywhere what exactly those 'minerals' were.
To Judy; that 2001 MB I bought in 2017 came with one of those 'blue' things that was in the filtered water picture you provided. It's been sitting outside for a year and a half now. Not sure what it is for.... RonB
To Judy; that 2001 MB I bought in 2017 came with one of those 'blue' things that was in the filtered water picture you provided. It's been sitting outside for a year and a half now. Not sure what it is for.... RonB
It's a water softener.
https://www.portablewatersoftener.com/shop/water-softeners/portable-standard-water-softener?SKU=OTG4-StdSoft
Larry
Humans with rare exceptions have drink hard water since humans became humans. The only place in nature you can find 'soft' water is from rain.
"I spent a lot of time looking for purified water, that actually was just water, to add to my batteries, but had to settle for distilled."
-----
Ron, I always used only distilled water in the batteries (when I had 'waterable' batteries), and only distilled water in the coolant mix. Any standards for 'purified' water are all over the lot, so I use only 'steam distilled' (labeled on the jug) water for the cooling system; I think that's the best one can do.
Gee, I thought I was the only one using distilled water for the coolant (and batteries too). Reverse Osmosis water is good too, but grocery stores don't identify that separately. RonB
Gee, I thought I was the only one using distilled water for the coolant (and batteries too).
Using distilled or demineralised water always been the recommenced fluid AFAIK.
If you need to fill the windshield washer reservoir, and washer fluid isn't available, use distilled water. Tap water will leave spots.
Larry
Ron, I do drink jugs marked distilled or reverse osmosis (the really good ones like at whole foods, not the ones out in front of the super markets – I can’t do those ones). However, I have run into some issues where generic store jugs labeled purified (fine print says distilled or reverse osmosis) were not – obvious by the taste, so I buy distilled jugs or find machines that taste food to me. Name Brands smaller bottles - I can drink Aquafina and Dasani but not other brands.
Distilled is boiled then the evaporated water recaptured leaving the crud behind (or burned into the air which is a concern if you are doing your own), reverse osmosis has series of filters but the downside is it wastes a lot of water to get water thru all the filters and the waste water is not good for things like bathing or the garden.
OK, I just gotta jump in! ;-)
Distilled water contains no dissolved minerals. Thus, it is a good thing for topping off batteries. It is my (unverified) understanding that distilled water is not good to drink. This is because we excrete minerals needed for health when we urinate. To maintain safe mineral levels, one good source is conventional water, while distilled water will lower those minerals.
Purified water contains dissolved minerals, but bacteria, cysts and virus particles have been either filtered out, killed or both. That makes it good for drinking, but not good for batteries, as the dissolved minerals can compromise the chemical reactions on which a flooded cell battery depends.
Personally, I use southern New Mexico desert water for everything, unfiltered, for half the year, for the past ten years. There is no sediment in my strainer. When I flush my water heater twice a year, I remove white sediment every time. I occasionally get water spots on stuff, but a rag soaked with some vinegar takes them right away.
Ken F in NM
Ken is right on point in his posting. My office is walking distance to 500K gallons of pure demineralized water we use for certain processes. And while it is very clean water, it is actually dangerous to consume in certain situations because of the lack of minerals. It can actually try to leach minerals from whatever it contacts whether it be steel or the human body. Certain distilled waters have similar properties. Pure demin water is not conductive but certain distilled waters have enough conductance or conductivity to use in batteries or radiators without scaling as much as hard water. Scaling in tanks is very unlikely unless the water "cycles up" meaning evaporation and leaving the minerals behind or is constantly heated and cooled like in an engine. Certain hard waters are actually really good to drink due to the mineral content in a lot of conditions. Water qualities and makeup variations are endless.
Pure demin water is not conductive but certain distilled waters have enough conductance or conductivity to use in batteries
Distilled water has no significant minerals dissolved, but batteries have acid, which provides the ions for conductivity when you add distilled water.
Steve
I agree with Ken, I have also heard that in general people do better with some minerals in their water. Many reverse osmosis machines in stores (the better ones) add some minerals back in. But the fact that some minerals in water is good for me doesn't help me if I can't get it down my throat. I get my minerals from other sources.
It is easy to check for symptoms or get tested. We are not on the forefront of things in AZ, at least not like the coast states are. However, B12 and D3 are a standard part of physicals here and I am starting to see checking levels of magnesium, calcium, and potassium included in some physicals.
Jane