Hello All
I think I made a silly assumption about where the wiring is. :-[
I was putting up curtains over the dining table, and after I removed the valance over the window, I drilled a hole for the brackets. When I went to vacuum after I'd put everything up, I found that the 110 outlets no longer worked and the circuit breaker had tripped.
I reset the breaker and everything seems fine...
Question 1, does the wire to the outlet next to the table - between the stove and the table - come down from ceiling or up from the floor?
Question 2, if I have indeed nicked a wire, do I need to panic!?!
Many thanks...
Pat
Pat, coincidences do happen, but, in this case, you might have put the drill, and later the screw, into a wire. The drill bit and/or the screw, contacting both the hot and either neutral or, more likely the ground, would cause the breaker to trip. The fact that you were able to reset the breaker suggests that the contact came from the drill bit, and the screw is somehow not making contact. The risk is, if the screw is now touching the hot lead but nothing else, and someone comes into contact with either that screw or anything metal the screw is touching, as well as a path to ground, they might be electrocuted. Similarly, the potential exists for vibration to create contact that leads to a fire.
I think you need to somehow open the wall behind the screws to look for damaged wiring.
Ken F in NM
Hello All
I think I made a silly assumption about where the wiring is. :-[
I was putting up curtains over the dining table, and after I removed the valance over the window, I drilled a hole for the brackets. When I went to vacuum after I'd put everything up, I found that the 110 outlets no longer worked and the circuit breaker had tripped.
I reset the breaker and everything seems fine...
Question 1, does the wire to the outlet next to the table - between the stove and the table - come down from ceiling or up from the floor?
Question 2, if I have indeed nicked a wire, do I need to panic!?!
Many thanks...
Pat
Pat, you might review the photos in this thread to see if you can find any photos of the wiring where you drilled. Lazy Daze Construction Photos (http://www.lazydazeowners.com/index.php?topic=32797.0)
Chris
Was the circuit breaker that popped either the one for the converter or the 30A breaker? If so, you may have shorted a 12V line, and the converter 12V supply had a current surge. The only 120VAC line in the upper wall / roof should be the one to the roof air.
Steve
When I got through my pre-major-panic panic, I thought about using a stud finder w/wire detector, and sure enough there was a wire where I didn't expect one to be. Soooo, I cut into the wall and found the damage, as shown.
I talked to my electrical trouble shooter, and he said that it should be OK if I wrap it with electrical tape, and he'll swing by at some point to double check.
By the way, I put the detector in my drill box, as a gentle reminder... ::)
You have a pair of holes in the center of what looks like romex, which is used for 120v wiring. You might have broken the ground, or simply torn away the insulation for it. You have also bared the insulation for the hot wire, allowing a short between the two, hence the popped breaker. Do what you want, but I say it is not safe to provide power to that line.
Ken F in NM
I’ve seen “personal upgrades” of bookshelves and the like that make me cringe.
Not knowing where LD puts the wiring etc. and the tendency for RV walls (even LD’s) to be lacking in structural strength has kept me from attaching anything to the walls.
At least you found the problem, so now you can repair the damage. I’d hate to have a 12 or 120 volt line hidden behind the wall with any damage. 12 volt fires are not uncommon. Personally, I’d kill the power to the line until a pro made the proper repair.
Not long ago a LDO member lost their beloved LD to a 12 volt fire. Very sad.
Kent
Hi Pat. The drill probably wandered into the softer insulation between two conductors. One of them had to be the 'hot' (black) wire. So the problem is how much material, copper, did the drill remove from the two wires. If you can determine where that wire came from, and goes to, that would help. The fix will require taking off enough insulation to see the condition of the conductors involved. If nicked enough, then it would have to be cut, a new piece spliced in, and a box installed in the wall at that hole. Another would be to route a completely new wire from where this piece started, to where it was going to. Cutting this wire completely out of the circuit where the new wire was spliced in.
I use this pen to detect wires in the wall. They need to be energized though. Non-Contact Voltage Tester, Electrical Voltage Detector Pen 12-1000V AC... (https://www.amazon.com/Non-Contact-Electrical-Detector-Inductive-Multi-meter/dp/B07BDHHSLZ/ref=asc_df_B07BDHHSLZ/?tag=scmcldo-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=309722091285&hvpos=1o4&hvnetw=g) RonB
Don't feel too bad. I've had electrical problems in other brands because of screws that found wiring during the original construction process. Of course it was years after the warranty when the vibration from travel had worn through and shorted out the generator switches.
When you determine what this wire supplies, if you have to install a box to make the repair (like Ron B mentioned) you might consider adding an outlet if its a location that could use one. Just something to consider ...
When you determine what this wire supplies, if you have to install a box to make the repair (like Ron B mentioned) you might consider adding an outlet if its a location that could use one. Just something to consider ...
.. when life gives you lemons, make lemonade. ;)
.. when life gives you lemons, make lemonade. ;)
I like lemonade...
If there’s any slack I’d go ahead and lop off and resecure the connection with whatever connection gives you confidence...if there isn’t any slack I’d lop it off and do the same thing with some extra wire...regardless go ahead and fix it proper.
Anyone with the salt to cut a hole in their LD wall is surely capable of fixing this.
Anyone with the salt to cut a hole in their LD wall is surely capable of fixing this.
Said the man who dismantled and rebuild the North end of a Southbound RB in his copious free time. ;)
I would square up the cut in the panel, raising it a little higher and then gently slice the romex's plastic cover open to see exactly what is damaged.
If you are lucky, the wire are just just nicked. Spread the wires apart a little and then cover the exposed wires in a layer of silicon sealant or liquid electrical tape.
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Star-Brite-4-oz-Liquid-Electrical-Tape-Black-084104N/206513456
Did you determine what the damaged wires power, are they for the rooftop A/C ?
Larry
Hi Pat; I'm not familiar with the inside layout of your coach (The Pearl), so I can't even speculate as to what wire is affected, or where it comes from and goes to. I use a hack saw blade to carefully cut straight cuts in the inside skin. Wrap the blade with tape where your hand is. I think you could put in a 'cut in' box with a blank off plate. Or even a reading light fixture, to make it look as if you intended it to be that way. RonB
Hi Pat,
Congratulations on deciding to cut an opening in the wall in order to visually inspect the suspected wire damage. It was the correct action.
Since the CB [circuit breaker] released when you pierced the wire, that was a strong indication that there had been damage to the conductors and insulation which requires suitable repair before using that circuit for anything.
Now that you have determined that there was significant damage, you need to take significant corrective action. Any electrical wire that has had a drill or screw pierce the center has been damaged beyond safe use; even if the CB does not release [pop OFF] immediately after flipping it back ON [re-arming] AND using a device to draw power through the circuit.
Flip the CB OFF to remove power from that circuit until repaired. When you repair it, it is advisable to shut off power to that CB panel, if feasible, so you have a double layer of protection. Keep a fire extinguisher rated for electrical close at hand.
Wrapping the wire in electrical tape is NOT acceptable because it does not solve the problem; perhaps your friend meant to remove the jacket [white colour] and inspect component wires for damage to insulation or conductor. If only the insulation has been damaged, then properly wrap each wire [ or use liquid insulation compound] with tape, then wrap entire assembly. This is in the barely acceptable range, for an RV. It would not pass code in a house. Likewise, junction boxes, in a home, cannot be covered inside a wall. But RVs are covered by a different code that sometimes allows procedures that are prohibited in homes.
If the conductor has been nicked, than you need to replace that wire, in whole or part; or install a junction box, preferably with a visible cover. The reason for this is that the wiring used [the gauge or AWG], whether home or RV, is usually the minimum required for the maximum power allowed by the CB. Nicking the conductor reduces the amount of electricity that can safely pass through it. It, in effect, becomes a fusible link which can ignite a fire when it overheats when maximum power is demanded by the appliances on that circuit. It might overheat before a CB detects a problem.
This might seem like a royal PITA, so I want to congratulate you on continuing to investigate even after the CB returned power to that circuit and APPARENTLY it functioned properly.
Harvey
While I'm pretty good with plumbing, and knew how to get in to look at the problem, electrical work, other than changing a lightbulb, is WAY above my pay grade! And my paranoia regarding electrical problems will ensure I get it fixed!
The wire in question powers the outlet next to the table, and that circuit, according to the diagram on the panel, controls all of the outlets in the coach.
I've been flipping it off when I'm away, and will see how soon my electrician can get here. As there is no slack at all, I think it's going to be a major repair.
And thank you all for your support and guidance!
While I'm pretty good with plumbing, and knew how to get in to look at the problem, electrical work, other than changing a lightbulb, is WAY above my pay grade! And my paranoia regarding electrical problems will ensure I get it fixed!
You are being reasonable and prudent, not paranoid. Paranoia isn't about fear, it's a reasonableness test.
God grant me the serenity to accept those things I cannot change, the courage to change those I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.
Joel
Harvey's answer is perfect.
Ken F in NM
When I put a wineglass rack over the sink in our MB (six screws, total), I drilled through the 120V wiring between the bathroom outlet and the outlet for the microwave. Shorted live to ground, nicked the conductor- sad, sad. I learned:
a) LD must use shrinking wire, because there was nothing left for slack- not that it would have mattered much, as the damage was in the middle of the run, and
b) You can completely remove the innards of the cabinet above the sink in a 1997-8 MB to run a new cable, and
c) The funky minimum-height outlet box over the bathroom sink is a real stinker to fold the outlet and its wires into.
The "ten minute job" took ten hours, not helped by two (!) trips to the nearest hardware store, 45 minutes one-way.
I did put some slack in, "for the next guy." Of course, that creates a bigger target for the next errant drill.
You'll be happy you fixed it correctly.
Mark H
LD must use shrinking wire, because there was nothing left for slack- not that it would have mattered much, as the damage was in the middle of the run, and
This a problem that all LD suffers from, the wiring is pulled tight and stapled into position, that there is no slack to pay with. This can turn a small repair job into a huge project where the wall needs to be opened up enough to graft in a new piece of romex. More of the wire might be accessible inside the cabinet, after removing the section the wall inside the cabinet,. Accessing the wiring from the inside the cabinet will have the repair out of sight and not require cutting anymore the white wall paneling.
I wouldn't assume the wire(s) is badly damaged until a visual assessment is made. I have seen two cases where a screw entered between two wires and, barely poking through the insulation, made contact, the wires only had superficial markings. Repairing the insulation was all that was needed for a safe repair.
You don't know until it has been inspected.
Larry
The outer jacket of the Romex is just to hold the 3 wires in proximity. You should be able (with power OFF) to safely slit vertically down the middle of the flat part of the jacket to inspect, using a razor blade. This will cut along the bare ground wire. Here is a somewhat applicable description:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZiYUZDm8-q0
Then, pull the jacket halves back while allowing the blade to slice back horizontally at each end of the slit, so you can get access to the damaged area for inspection. If only the wire insulation is damaged, then you can wrap the wire(s) with electrical tape, then tape up the jacket.
Steve
Harvey's answer is perfect.
Ken F in NM
Ken, thank you for the kind comment.
Over the years I have read many of your postings and have enjoyed and benefited from them.
Harvey
Red, you sound like an electrician. My brother is an electrical contractor up in San Jose. Whenever he visits us down here, I usually have some kind of (very minor) electrical project lined up. For example, putting in an additional outlet in the garage, etc.
So, having watched him work - and even providing limited assistance beyond getting a beer - as well as living with the (professional) results, I understood everything you were saying: conduit, junction boxes, etc.
Relevant conversation: we've had an unused 30A, 220V outlet for an electric dryer for 20 years. (We have a gas dryer.) Whenever we bring our RV home, I just plug into another 20A circuit because I'm only recharging the batteries. Well, anyway, one day I got a bug and decided to convert the 30A plug to 110V just because.
However, even knowing it's just uncoupling the second hot wire and changing the outlet, I still called in an electrician. Like my brother, this guy is super busy wiring garages for Teslas. I caught him on his way back from another job, so he swung by within minutes. We got to talking as he quickly went through all the steps I've seen before, and was done in 20 minutes. Total charge: $150, which I knew beforehand. Again, knowing my brother's work, I already knew the score: licensed, bonded, insurance, minimum charge, etc.
Well, anyway, the point is, when you're dealing with heavy gauge wire like Romex, 30A circuits (main), etc, pro jobs treat it right. We all have this potential source of fire running household current & voltage, but which is allowed to skip rigorous household code.
My advice, for it's worth, is to try and run a new line of wire. Note also this is a potential disclosure issue when you go to sell the RV at some future point, and obvious liability if anything where to ever happen. You know, civil suits coming back at you targeting your actual worth.
Snerf, you reminded me of a similar issue here. When the place was built in 1985 it included a 30A 220 heat pump in the garage for the water heater as a paean to energy efficiency. It went when the place was plumbed for gas a decade or so later, and the circuit was just sitting there.
I thought 'how hard could it be to tap into it and extend it to the side wall. I thought, and thought again. My electrician charged double which included the code grade conduit. Cheap at the price.
Joel
Hi Snerf and Joel,
This post is diverging from the original topic but it is useful information. I am assuming that Snerf was referring to me when he used "red" since my email is rednipcan. My usual name, face to face, is Harvey.
RV plugs and receptacles sometimes differ from those which we see in the average home. As I mentioned, the code and standards for RVs can be different from brick and mortar [B&M] homes. In some aspects this is understandable; in other aspects it is cost minimization in an industry that escapes most regulatory oversight because it is small compared to automobile and house construction, has good industry lobbyists and few consumer advocates. People of our age may remember the debacle when aluminum wiring was granted code compliance for B&M house construction. After numerous fires that were caused by the oxidation of the aluminum it was removed from allowable in home construction. The oxidation created enough electrical resistance that unless every single connection point was done PERFECTLY that point could overheat. BTW if anyone owns a home built during that period, check your wiring. If it is aluminum, ensure that every connecting point does not exhibit any evidence of overheating and is proper and safe.
Since both of you have, or are considering, switching one circuit of your brick home from one amperage/voltage to a different amperage/voltage in order to supply electricity to your RV, it is important to confirm that the proper work was performed. I have read many times of licensed electricians misunderstanding the different requirements of RVs because they assume they are homes on wheels.
Here are a couple sites that have pictures and explanations of the differences of homes vs RV.
How to Install an RV Outlet at Home | AxleAddict (https://axleaddict.com/rvs/How-to-Install-an-RV-Outlet-at-Home)
This is a clear article and has a very useful you tube video at the end of the article. It is over 20 minutes but you can fast forward through substantial parts that are not directly relevant. I don't think the distinction between 120 volt and 240 volt circuits is sufficiently stated in the article.
The 30-amp 120-volt 2 pole 3 wir (http://www.myrv.us/electric/Pg/30amp_Service.htm)
Note the suggestion to change the CB from a 220 V to a 120V. It might not be a code requirement in your area, but if you do not do it, then that abandoned hot wire needs to be properly capped [terminated]. Even better if you also disconnect it from the CB, so it is no longer hot, and cap it properly at the panel. When you do either, you need to make it clear to future electricians what you have done; and at the CB panel it needs to be clearly written on the listing of what circuits serve what purposes. It is part of standard code that every service panel must have a description of what each circuit does; it is amazing how this essential information is often missing.
https://www.pcrichard.com/library/blogArticle/get-it-right-the-first-time-a-how-to-guide-for-matching-power-outlets-plugs/350006
This site is only for residential B&M. Notice that they do not even show a 30 Amp 120 volt receptacle because in a B&M location it would be foolish. Any electrical appliance that draws 30 amps would do it on an 220 volt circuit in order to double the energy supplied. However, RVs plugged into receptacles at a B&M location are somewhat unique. RV makers wanted more power than 20 Amps at 120 volts, but they would not spend the money to install 30 amps at 220 volts, so this accommodation was used. BTW AFAIK RVs that have 50 amp plugs are wired for 220 volt; but I have read that some campgrounds provide 50 amps at 120 volts which means that substantial parts of the RV will not work properly.
So you have some sympathy for electricians here is the home depot listing of receptacles. Only the 30 amp ones.
30 amp - Electrical Outlets & Receptacles - Wiring Devices & Light Controls... (https://www.homedepot.com/b/Electrical-Wiring-Devices-Light-Controls-Electrical-Outlets-Receptacles/30-amp/N-5yc1vZc33aZ1z17l9w)
Because it is not common for most electricians to wire 30 amp 120 volt outlets it is prudent to inspect it and test it to make sure it was done properly.
I hope I have not confused anyone [which sometimes includes myself].
Harvey
Another resource...
RV Electric (http://www.myrv.us/electric/)
Pat--
Sorry for the defugilty that led to your original post, & hoping it has a relatively painless resolution, but thanks so much for starting this thread...so much good information, discussion, & links. I especially appreciate the discussion about adding an RV outlet--I would have just assumed the pro would know all; discussion & links have been copied into my LD Upgrades To Do file.
Good luck--
Lynne