The other day I drained my fresh water tank and filled with fresh filtered water.
The tank is completely full. I know this because fresh water is exiting the breather hole as well as the fresh water tank hose entry.
When depressing the monitor “Readout” display button, the Fresh Water LED’s briefly display all lights to indicate a full tank but within less than a second the LED’s for Full and 2/3 go out leaving only the 1/3 full LED lit. Very strange.
I added 8 ounces of White Vinegar to the tank two days ago and waited 48 hours. Very little has changed other than the 2/3 LED remaining lit for only slightly longer before turning off.
Today I drained and filled the fresh water tank with tap water in an effort to “clean” any possible residue from the sensors. One would think that if two sensors were “dirty” the lower one (1/3) would suffer from the same cause.
I’ll give the chlorinated city water a day or so to sanitize the tank. I’ll monitor any changes.
Other than adding Sea Level sensors to the tank, is there something that I should be doing to remedy this situation? I’m wondering if there is an access panel to the interior of the tank. Since ours is a RB the tank is just underneath the drivers side couch.
Otherwise, all is well. Happy New Year.
Kent
This is a whole lot of guesswork, but...
The tank sensors are basically screws that penetrate the tank wall and report conductivity when wet. If you had corrosion on the inner end of the sensor, you should not get a reading that appears, then disappears. If they sense water, your reading would stay on. The fact that the display initially shows full, then cycles down to 1/3 suggests to me that the issue is not with the sensors, but is with the electronics that control the display. I doubt that cleaning and flushing the tank will be of any help.
... and that is all I can offer.
Ken F in NM
Hi Kent. Happy New Year! In my older motorhome before the LD; it didn't come with tank sensors. I designed and built a fresh water tank sensor, that worked well with a used display I bought from a friend. The light bulbs lit up, using leakage current through the water (some salt ions) to turn on a transistor. So one day I ran out of water at Yosemite. Late October all of the dump stations were closed, so I snuck some out of a hose behind a gas station (also closed). My fresh water sensor didn't work! A teaspoon of salt added to 35 gallons, and it resumed reading properly. The water was actually pure enough to not conduct enough electricity for measurement.
Maybe your tank is too clean, and the water too pure. Your sensors work at first and then fade away, as if the water just won't conduct enough. The tank sensors don't have a lot of surface area in contact with the water, so the water doesn't have to be very pure to not conduct the minimum current required to light a segment. That small ground contact at the very bottom has to source enough electricity to light up three sensors for the full reading. That is probably why the lowest light (closest to the bottom ground contact) sort of works. How does it read with straight Long Beach tap water? Your sensors should work again. RonB
Can you see the sensor pegs in the water tank on a RB? I know you can on a MB (behind the water pump door), which would make troubleshooting this problem much easier.
If the 2015 system is the same as the 2003 system, then the system is pretty simple. You could have a problem with the pegs (not my first guess), the wires between the pegs and the readout, or the readout itself.
Rich
'03 MB in NC
Thanks Ron & Rich,
Rich, since the tank is directly below the couch, I haven’t yet spotted the sensors. I’ll climb underneath in a bit and see what’s visable.
Ron, thanks for the saline tip. As I’ve just added a fresh tank of LB water (pretty hard water actually) the sensors have not responded except for the brief readout before lowering to the 1/3 sensor. I hope these simple fixes take effect.
I have already removed the monitor panel and all wires are tight (although for about 6 months the generator LED does not light while the genny is running...but that’s less of a concern at this point).
Everything has been working as normal as recently as my trip to Indian Cove before Christmas and the water level has been lowering as I do use the “facilities” as it resides in my drive way (don’t tell my neighbor down the street 😖).
Still hopeful to have a resolution before the MB GT in March.
Thanks,
Kent
Since you have the monitor panel off and have access to the wires: If you are comfortable with a multi-meter, check for continuity between the various wires that attach to the sensor pegs.
With the tank full of water, I think you should find continuity between any 2 of the pegs. If you get that, you have narrowed the problem to the display. If not, you should be able to figure out with peg/wire combo is causing the problem.
You can also swap wires around, to have the 1/3 full wire read as 3/3 full for example, to troubleshoot. I like to take a cell phone picture of the way things are when I start to make sure I can get them back to their original positions.
Rich
'03 MB in NC
Since we are on the subject does anyone know how To remove the top sliding portion of the couch? Accessing the fresh tank would be nice in the even of a leak but it seems the couch sliding design does not allow for this.
The couch is a two piece mechanism. The top section slides out and is kept in place with a rail that has a small bit of wood that attaches to the slide rail and goes below the two rails that keep the slide parallel.
Above the tank are two panels of wood that are screwed down to either side of the slide rail. Unscrewing the slide rail from the couch will release the rail and allow you to lift the couch section and set it aside.
Once the couch section is removed the panels above the water tank can be unscrewed and removed. This will expose the tank.
Here’s a pic of what you will find. The “red” shows the panels above the tank. The “yellow” shows the “rail” and the slide area. The “green” shows the small piece of wood that keeps the rail from popping upward and in the track. The “blue” is the couch panel that slides outward to increase the depth of the couch/bed.
Reassembly is the reverse. Don’t loose the rail. I’ve actually never done this but it looks pretty straight forward.
Hope this helps.
Kent
P.S. I’m having trouble uploading pics. I’ll try again later.
For a mid-bath floor plan since the fresh water tank is behind the kitchen counter.
The best freshwater indicator I have seen on an LD was a length of plastic tubing mounted on the exterior of the cabinet below the sink. It was connected to the tank so that the level in the tube changed with the level in the tank. They are called sight gauges. You can see examples by Googling. No wires, always accurate.
PS you can always get on your knees with a flashlight and check the level.
In our rig, on the fourth day, we are in need of water. no gauge required.
"PS you can always get on your knees with a flashlight and check the level."
----
This has been my MO from the get go; the crude gauges provide only a rough suggestion of what any tank levels might be. ;)
As I worked on the fresh water tank sensor error yesterday, I took some time to look at the monitor panel a bit closer. I also looked underneath the RB to look for any exposed elements of the fresh water tank.
There are no parts of the tank visable from below. No wires exposed so road damage is not possible as far as I can tell.
The Monitor wiring to LED’s is solid state. Included here are photos of what the board looks like.
So far, not much has changed with the exception of one very important element. Some of the wiring harnesses have very delicate wires. While reinstalling the monitor into the wall, I managed to break one of the leads to the propane detector from its pin. 😖 I used a bit of solder to reestablish the connection to the pin. One day, perhaps, I’ll replace the pin. If anyone decides to remove the monitor panel, just be careful while reinstalling it. There are a lot of wires back there. 🧐 You’ll notice in my pics that my propane tank appears to be full. It is not. This reading is a result of the broken wire. Ouch.
Also included today is the pic I took of the couch frame above the water tank. Getting to the top of the tank is fairly straight forward, but not something I’m ready to do quite yet unless absolutely necessary.
I did read in the LD manual about hard water causing sensor errors so I will, most likely, follow the cleaning procedure outlined in the manual.
And so it goes.
Kent
“PS you can always get on your knees with a flashlight and check the level."
Unfortunately the RB fresh water tank is hidden very well beneath the couch and is not visable. I wish it were.
Kent
“PS you can always get on your knees with a flashlight and check the level."
Unfortunately the RB fresh water tank is hidden very well beneath the couch and is not visable. I wish it were.
Kent
A SeeLevel system will cure your inability to get an accurate reading. I installed one after my wife ran out of water while washing her hair. It's worth every penny not to go through that experience again YMMV.
Garnet 709-P3W SeeLevel II Tank Monitoring System (https://www.rvupgradestore.com/Garnett-Technologies-Model-709P3W-SeeLeveL-II-p/709-p3w.htm)
The SeeLevel show the tank's levels in 4% gradients, instead of 1/3, 2/3 and full readings. It is one of the more popular enhancements I have installed over the years.
Larry
Larry,
I like the idea of ditching the tank monitors currently in the LD. The SeeLevel you linked appears very cost effective.
I wonder about the wiring to the current LD monitor wiring harnesses. Mounting the sensors appears to be easy enough. It’s the wiring that makes me hesitate. Are the existing LD wires spliced into? Is the SeeLevel monitor plug-n-play? While I’m okay with things I’m familiar with, some changes give me pause.
I suppose I should just pick up the system and take it one step at a time.
Taking a deep breath. 🤯
Kent
Here's how a SeeLevel system is installed. First, ignore the existing sensors. Instead, an inductive sensor is bonded to the outside of the tank. It is a strip of flexible circuit board with an adhesive back. It has two wires, one black and one blue, that are used to make the electrical connection. The sensors are programmed for the black, grey or fresh water tanks by cutting a portion of the circuit board with scissors. Install the sensors on the tanks. Then, all the black wires are connected together with a single black lead wire which is brought up to the monitor. Same for the blue wires and a blue lead. The monitor has a black lead and a blue lead which are connected to the sensor lead wires. It has other leads which get connected to 12v, to the propane gauge, and a ground wire.
The hardest part for me was figuring out how to thread the wires from the tanks up to the monitor, which I located near the ceiling. The second hardest part was identifying the propane gauge wire. Other than those two tasks, installation was quite easy.
You need to splice into a 12v source, into a ground wire, and into the propane gauge wire.
Ken F in NM
There's a write-up on installing SeeLevel sensors (http://www.andybaird.com/travels/skylarking/improvements/gauges.htm) on my website, with photos.
I think I'll wait for the wireless Bluetooth version(s) to become available. With millions of RVs on the road, the after market demand for remote sensors should be quite high.
With household systems covering the initial R&D costs, unified systems tailored for RVs to provide different measurement readings should be fairly cost effective.
Any while you can route the information to a central monitor, a smart phone will be the more likely readout device of choice.
I think I'll wait for the wireless Bluetooth version(s) to become available.
Any while you can route the information to a central monitor, a smart phone will be the more likely readout device of choice.
If such an animal became available, you would still have to route 12V and ground to each sensor panel and its bluetooth transmitter. Much more wiring than the single readout panel requires.
Steve
If such an animal became available, you would still have to route 12V and ground to each sensor panel and its bluetooth transmitter. Much more wiring than the single readout panel requires.
I will take a simple, hard-wired device almost anytime over any Bluetooth device, installed in an RV.
I have friends who installed a Bluetooth controlled electrical system in their LDs and watched them dealing with problems with the controls and readout, having to reboot and troubleshoot the system.
Bluetooth, and it's ilk, would add more complexity to a basically simple system of measuring the level of the tanks.
Everything does not need to be wireless, hardwiring is usually cheaper, more dependable and a lot easier to troubleshoot.
Larry
The See Level gauge was installed in our LD within a month or so after it was purchased and we are much happier with it than the built-in gauges.
I have had to replace a couple of tank sensors both the gray and black. However, the black still is not accurate. We have tried several different cleaning methods including having the tank pressure washed with no real improvement. Have spoken with service at the mfg and they suggested a possible ground wire connection issue. Checking what I think is the connection point found no problem. The only reason I haven't pursued it further is that it becomes accurate when we get within about 20% of full.
Jim
The See Level gauge was installed in our LD within a month or so after it was purchased and we are much happier with it than the built-in gauges.
However, the black still is not accurate. We have tried several different cleaning methods including having the tank pressure washed with no real improvement. Have spoken with service at the mfg and they suggested a possible ground wire connection issue.
Most issues with SeeLevel sensors I have seen have been traced to poor wiring connections. I now solder all the connections to the bus wires.
The sensors must be in direct contact with the tank, they sometimes pull free at the top or bottom of the sensor.
Duct tape can be used to reattach the sensor if the adhesive backing has failed. I usually tape the sensors in place until the tanks have been cycled a few times to make use they sensors are in the right position.
Our once a year, week-long septic tank enzyme soak has keep the tanks clean enough that sensor errors are not a problem.
Sensors do fail, have you tried another sensor in the back tank?
Larry
Having a TK I just look push the flush and look into the black tank. I can see if it need dumping or not. Flesh water, pull out the bottom drawer next to the sink. Can see the level of water. Gray tank I just guess. Got really good after five years of use.
Sensors do fail, have you tried another sensor in the back tank?
Larry
We replaced the black tank sensor which altered the error but did not eliminate it. When the tank is completely empty the readings can be all over the place. It changes erratically day by day and by flush until it gets around 80% then it will settle and as it gets closer to full it reads reliably. I can't speak to all the wiring but it appeared to have been competently done and wrapped in loom or whatever that stuff is called. I'm not 100% sure I found the ground connection but I think I did and it was tight and no sign of corrosion. I loosened it and re-tightened it to be sure but again no fix. We've learned how it works and it hasn't been a problem.
Jim
"Having a TK I just look push the flush and look into the black tank. I can see if it need dumping or not. Flesh water, pull out the bottom drawer next to the sink. Can see the level of water. Gray tank I just guess. Got really good after five years of use."
----
Ditto. ;)
"Having a TK I just look push the flush and look into the black tank. I can see if it need dumping or not. Flesh water, pull out the bottom drawer next to the sink. Can see the level of water. Gray tank I just guess. Got really good after five years of use."
----
Ditto. ;)
Can't see into the black tank on a 30' model.
Jim
"Can't see into the black tank on a 30' model."
---
Right; AFAIK, the TK is the only model with a straight drop into the black tank.
Right; AFAIK, the TK is the only model with a straight drop into the black tank.
The FL and FD also.
Steve
"The FL and FD also."
----
Really!? Thanks, Steve! ;)
If such an animal became available, you would still have to route 12V and ground to each sensor panel and its bluetooth transmitter. Much more wiring than the single readout panel requires.
Remember "plastics" in The Graduate? Batteries my man, batteries. Secondly, why 12V?
Consider for a moment how long the good old CR2032 3VDC last. For one, sensors would only be active when receiving an initial signal ie when the rig is utilized. Secondly, one query per hour would be more than sufficient. At that rate, 1-2 year product lifespans would probably be the targeted norm.
I will take a simple, hard-wired device almost anytime over any Bluetooth device, installed in an RV.
I have friends who installed a Bluetooth controlled electrical system in their LDs and watched them dealing with problems with the controls and readout, having to reboot and troubleshoot the system.
Bluetooth, and it's ilk, would add more complexity to a basically simple system of measuring the level of the tanks.
Everything does not need to be wireless, hardwiring is usually cheaper, more dependable and a lot easier to troubleshoot.
The Pareto principle aka the 80/20 rule, articulates the principle that a minor percentage of causal factors produce a majority of resulting effects.
Applied to the product development, marketing and/or acceptance cycle, we can observe that only a small number of products introduced each year actually survive to the point of general utilization. However, over time, the relatively small percent continue to gain acceptance & adoption, to the point of sometimes reaching overwhelming market dominance.
IMO, remote sensors and other wireless control devices are one such application. Right about now, we're at the early market adoption -> product refinement/improvement cycle. If it results in what I expect, within 5 years the idea of hard wired devices will be viewed comparatively with home land lines. That is, around a 99:1 adoption split vis-a-vis smart phones.
Thanks for all the input everyone. To add to Andy’s link on his experience with the See Level system, I located a YouTube on the installation on a Class A rig. https://youtu.be/IDffmhQ5RkM
One thing missing on the See Level system that I noticed is the generator “hour” monitor. I’m hoping that a monitor for this can be added or the original one can be left intact somehow.
The OEM Tank Monitor in our LD has been as reliable as it can be since we took delivery in 2015. I have been able to get an empty readout on the “Black Tank” consistently by using a garden hose “Spray Attatchment” rather than the basic Camco Tank Wand.
The hose attatchment is capable of making a very wide spray and does a fine job of cleaning the walls of the black tank. Of course our RB does have a direct view into the tank and this makes the use of the hose attatchment possible whereas it would not be on the MB.
In regards to the Fresh Water Tank, I added about a quart of white vinager to the full tank of water. Hopefully this will assist in removing any calcium deposits, if any exist, on the tank sensors.
Thanks again.
Kent
Can't see into the black tank on a 30' model.
Or on a 27' Mid-Bath.
Larry
Can't see into the black tank on a 30' model.
Jim
I'm guessing your experience is the same as mine, Jim, in that after a few years you know by the sound of the flush how full the tank is, especially if it's more than ¾ths full.
Chris
I'm guessing your experience is the same as mine, Jim, in that after a few years you know by the sound of the flush how full the tank is, especially if it's more than ¾ths full.
Chris
Definitely.
Kent, the SeeLevel system does not replace the OEM indications. They, including your generator hours, remain in place. The SeeLevel uses its own monitor which you install at some location convenient for you.
Ken F in NM
So then there really is no need to remove the existing system. Having both systems monitoring the tanks (if operable) seems to be a practical redundancy. While not necessarily, it couldn’t hurt.
The RB closet is huge and there is 12volt power just on other side of the wall. Wouldn’t be a horrible option to locate the SeeLevel monitor inside the closet. Out of sight but easily accessed.
Kent
"Wouldn't be a horrible option to locate the SeeLevel monitor inside the closet."
I concurred with my technician, Mike Sylvester, that it would be good to mount the SeeLevel Monitor near the OEM monitor on the range hood. On my 30' there is a narrow space just to the left of the existing range hood, next to the microwave, and he mounted the new monitor in that space. I can see either system with a roll of the eye. And yes, they are both operational but independent of one another. ;)
So then there really is no need to remove the existing system. Having both systems monitoring the tanks (if operable) seems to be a practical redundancy. While not necessarily, it couldn’t hurt.
The SeeLevel has its own wiring and is only connected to the coach's electrical to obtain 12-volt power and one connection to the propane tank's level sensor, usually accessed in the tanks' readout panel .The functioning of the Factory LED sensors remains the same.
If you make the mistake of telling your wife there is enough water to wash her hair...and there isn't, you may soon be installing a SeeLevel too.
Larry
“If you make the mistake of telling your wife there is enough water to wash her hair...and there isn't, you may soon be installing a SeeLevel too”.
As concerned spouses, perhaps a Solar Shower and an emergency supply of water could keep us out of “hot” water in such perilous times. 😖
Kent
So anyway...my monitor panel has taken another turn. After adding about a quart of white vinegar to the fresh water tank, I have anxiously been watching the monitor for any subtle changes.
Having used the water from the full fresh water tank for the “facilities” I was waiting for the Monitor lights for the black tank to show a rise in level. Nothing changed. Being a RB, I was able to look directly into the black tank. To my surprise the water level had risen to just below the flush valve. I was shocked.
Going to the monitor panel I depressed “Readout Display” button and the LED’s quickly registered a full black tank and then they just as quickly lowered to show 1/3 full.
This rise & fall of the black tank LED’s was the same behavior I was/am experiencing with the fresh water tank.
This, to me, indicated that the readout error was not a “Tank Sensor” but rather a monitor error. What’s one to do at this point?
I just got off the phone with the Vince and Todd and the consensus is a problem with the LED circuit board. A DIY project costing around $70. An entire Monitor Panel is about $150. Either way I go, I’ll be glad to have this addressed.
I know the See Level system is a practical solution to the tank monitor issue, but I just can’t allow any part of my beloved LD to fail without getting it back to like new condition. After I’m past this hick-up, I’ll consider the SeeLevel installation.
Always “Tank Full” for all your help,
Kent
Hi Kent. Find where the +12 dc enters that read-out board. Likely it has a high resistance supply line. A corroded connection (that includes the possibility of the ground wire), pinched wire or bad connection coming from somewhere else (+12) are limiting the ability of the board to supply power to the LED's in the display. That is my bet. RonB
Ron,
Thanks for this advice. Our RB is a 2015 and purchased new at the Mothership. I have had the panel off a few times and took a close look at all the connections.
Nothing appeared to be corroded and or worn.
Except for the wire to the propane LED’s that I repaired (after I broke it loose from its pin when reinstalling the panel 🤪) everything looks solid.
Todd will e-mail me (yes, e-mail) when parts are in stock. Should be pretty straight forward for the DIY repair. Hope to have it all sorted out before Morro Bay.
Thanks again,
Kent
PS: Now that I look more closely at the board there does appear to be a discoloration on one of the circuit board solder points (not my handy work). Curious to see what Todd sends me.
The bottom pins on the gray and black tanks go to ground. The tank ground wires are usually terminated with a crimped-on fitting and screwed to the frame. I have seen LDs with with both the gray and black tank's ground wires either connected together or having a common grounding point.
If your rig is wired this way, an iffy ground could cause a common fluctuating reading issue in both tanks.
You might want to check and renew the ground wire(s) connection at the frame end.
Larry
Cheap digital meters from free to $$$ should be usable by all, and can tell you a lot about the activities of those invisible electrons. Voltage levels at 12V dc in low power circuits is really easy stuff. RonB
Fresh Water Tank Sensor Update
Today I drove to Santa Ana based JRV Products to pick up a replacement for my Tank Monitor Circuit Board.
I had a engaging conversation with Mary, the owner, about many things RV related. JRV makes electronic components for many RV and Boat manufactures across the country.
Prior to the boards installation, I took the precaution to shut down all electrical power (turning the battery disconnect switch off, unplugging shore power and throwing all the breakers as well as pulling the solar panel fuse). I then proceeded to make the swap. About five minutes later, the job was completed. Easy as that.
Although I purchased the tank harness, at this time I did not install it. If it appears that it will achieve more accurate readings, I’ll install it at another time.
The end result is that I now have accurate and steady readings across all LEDs. The generator hours actually remained lit throughout the procedure. Must be some sort of back up battery built into the system. Very cool. The genny’s clock is not part of the board I replaced so that makes sense I suppose.
Interestingly, although I filled the propane tank yesterday and requested the attendant to allow the propane tank to bleed off a bit longer to insure complete (80%) tank capacity, the monitor reads 75% and does not reach the “Full” LED. This fuel level is also reflected in the AP Sonar propane detector I have recently installed. The AP Propane Sensor is reading 70%. The actual tank gauge reads Full. Very interesting. 🤯 Perhaps things will change once the rig has had a chance to stir the tank a bit.
All in all everything looks good to go. I’ll know more when we hit the road for Zion next week.
Here are some pics of today’s work.
Kent