So to start off our new year me and the DW discovered the only soft spot on our whole rig has grown, this has been a very wet winter and no doubt our end caps have expanded and contracted during the snow/rain to the point of leaking. While pulling back the paneling we found a significant amount of rot along both lower edges of the rear window. Looks as if part of it was old damage and now whatever sealing was done is leaking again.
My plan to cut what I have shown and let it dry out, we built a short term shelter on the rear of the rig to keep the rain off this week. As far as interior it’s just a simple operation of removing damaged wood and replacing with good. On the exterior I will be removing the lower half of both end caps and cutting out/replacing any damage I find. The real question is whether or not I should remove the window. My rig is a 2000 and it appears I have the rubber window seal (from what I can tell looking on the inside). More than likely my leaking is coming from where the window meets the seam in the aluminum, but if the end cap is leaking the water could be running down that seam and into my window framing.
As far as end caps go we are gong to try and save what we have, there are a few cracked areas I plan to cut a relief in and repair with epoxy. As far as reattaching I would really prefer to bed them in a good layer of the locktite sealant the mothership recommends and screw them down with stainless. The only worry I have is that screwing them will not allow proper expansion and contraction, so any advice is appreciated.
I will be working on this project throughout the week, if anyone has ever wanted specific pictures of a repair like this let me know. And as always any advice is hugely appreciated.
Great pics of big job. No rot behind shower?
That’s a good question, the bottom framing board on the shower side behind the bumper is in significantly better shape than the toilet side...so I’m assuming the framing Behind the cap is in better shape. That being said the cap is coming off and any repairs will be made.
I’ve been cutting and working it this morning and in order to cut away at the rot below the window some of the stapes that hold the outer skin on under the windows are unseated, that being said I’m going to go ahead and remove the rear window in order to make my repair as thorough as possible and in order to completely renew all sealant. Current plan is to use the locktite under the caps after repairs, afterwards I’ll add screws while the sealant sets up and then I’ll trim out the cap edges will fast cure 5200...unless someone here has a better idea??
I was wondering what your plans are to match the wall covering? Also; was all of this damage due to window leakage or end cap leakage?
Dale from Downey.
Keep the pics coming. Intetresting and informative to watch progress on projects like this.
Hi Cor2man; Your wallpaper can be matched with many available vinyl 'papers'. White would not be out of place.
The outside corners, where the corner caps meet, are capped by the factory now with a 1" wide aluminum strap. That started somewhere around 2004. I covered my corner cap joints with strap I got at LD. I had to do the bending. I'm including a picture of mine. I had originally put those screws in to keep the caps tight. I should have done just the cover strip without the screws. The holes for the screws are so close to the edge that the corners eventually break out. RonB
I believe I will toss some eternabond tape where the caps meet, I understand it won’t look the best but it will be a good way to keep water out long term.
Does anyone know a good solvent for the adhesive the caps are held on with? Before I reseal I would like that as clean as possible. I have scraped it with a vibratory tool but acetone seems useless when removing the small leftover residue.
Hi Cor2man; Your wallpaper can be matched with many available vinyl 'papers'. White would not be out of place.
The outside corners, where the corner caps meet, are capped by the factory now with a 1" wide aluminum strap. That started somewhere around 2004. I covered my corner cap joints with strap I got at LD. I had to do the bending. I'm including a picture of mine. I had originally put those screws in to keep the caps tight. I should have done just the cover strip without the screws. The holes for the screws are so close to the edge that the corners eventually break out. RonB
Good tip, Ron, I also covered my '02 corner caps with EternaBond, which works but eventually uglies up. Think I might get that aluminum strap.
Chris
I figure the eternabond may get ugly after a year or two but then heck I’ll just peel the sheath off and apply a new layer, in my tests the adhesive bonds together pretty well.
Does anyone have a specific sealant for glueing all the patches framework together as I fix my rotten sections?
Progress.
I was able to remove 95 percent of the compromised wood. This was the best that could be done within reason and I think any fragments of leftover rot will be negligible.
Biggest concern was the amount of rot on the Luan paneling attached to the Outer skin, sadly the only option was to cut out and scrap the Luan back wherever possible until I reached “good wood”.
This Luan was replaced with Luan plywood, the difficult part is framing it all back and matching the rear body lines while also trying to adhere and reattach Luan to the outer paneling, this was quite the challenge.
After hours of fine tuning we had all the necessary pieces to reassemble the drives side corner and adhere the new Luan to the skin, 3m spray adhesive was used on the Luan and the framing was installed with liquid nails and staples, I will be scabbing some extra boards to my patches to regain all possible rigidity.
The biggest worry is that my aluminum paneling is countered to my new body framing at the proper angle to allow the end cap to seat properly as well as the window. We will see how well that works out but I did everything I could to match the original framing.
It was clear the factory had liberally applied sealant anywhere the window had a potential to leak, this includes the curves of the window and anywhere a body seam came into contact with the window gasket. I will be adding extra sealant to any questionable areas just as the factory did.
This is certainly a repair I will complete, my biggest concern currently is just resealing perfectly to make this repair last.
Let me know how it looks this far!
Big job cor2man, it cost around 4k to have this particular repair done at the factory so your labor is paying off. Any idea what your cost of materials will be? End caps I imagine is the major expense.
Actually, I am planning to save my original caps. I am rebuilding any damage/cracks with epoxy. Hopefully they are sturdy enough after to continue to serve their purpose, my biggest hurdle is deciding how to reinstall them (see my seperate thread).
Me being in NC the factory isn’t really an option, and I got my rig for 15k so spending thousands on some rot repair wouldn’t make sense. Hopefully I do a quality job to last another decade.
As far as cost, it will be hundreds, but that’s well worth having an awesome RV in my mid twenties, me and the wife Love this thing.
Biggest concern was the amount of rot on the Luan paneling attached to the Outer skin, sadly the only option was to cut out and scrap the Luan back wherever possible until I reached “good wood”.
After hours of fine tuning we had all the necessary pieces to reassemble the drives side corner and adhere the new Luan to the skin, 3m spray adhesive was used on the Luan and the framing was installed with liquid nails and staples,I
The biggest worry is that my aluminum paneling is countered to my new body framing at the proper angle to allow the end cap to seat properly as well as the window. We will see how well that works out but I did everything I could to match the original framing.
Looking good!
We have been in a cell-free place for the past week or I would have commented earlier.
Replacing the rotted luan has always been a hassle but it needs to be done to prevent the aluminum skin from dents and to adds a little structural support.
For the structural repairs, I use Liquid Nails polyurethane construction adhesive.
On the framing behind the end caps, the Factory coats the exposed wood with polyurethane, to provide extra protection.
At the junction where the end caps meets, covering the gap with the Factory metal straps is fine and looks good.
I have been using Eternabond tape for the past few years to cover the gap. The gap is under stress and moves on rough roads, leading to what ever is covering it to eventually tear apart. Eternabond tape is flexible and, if prepped correctly, will last several years. Clean the gap and fill with 3M 5200 Fast Cure before covering with Eternabond.
To attach the caps, I prefer 3M 5200 FC over the Locktite product, having better experiences, long term with it..
If money is a concern, the Loctite is a lot cheaper, but you do get what you pay for.
I also screw the caps into position, using #8 stainless steel sheet metal screws. spaced at 4" or 6" intervals. Add a screw wherever it is necessary to pull the cap into place, the caps are flexible. The Factory installs screws in such situations too.
For repairing the old cap, if used, a plastic epoxy works great to fix cracks and tears.
PlasticWeld Syringe | J-B Weld (https://www.jbweld.com/collections/epoxy-adhesives/products/plasticweld-syringe)
Rear end leaks have become the most common areas of rot. where once the front nose was the problem spot.
Leaks around the rear window and rear end caps are the most common source of leakage.
Larry
That’s very helpful advise Larry, what method do you use to entire the stainless screws are sealed? Do you bed the end caps into fresh 5200?
I figure I’ll use the locktite to seal over the exposed wood but I’ll get the 5200 fast cure to attach the caps.
I’ve already got some 2 part epoxy setting up on the first cap where damage is present, hopefully when I reattach the expoxy holds!
On the one hand I could extend sympathy that such repairs are necessary, but I am in awe of your knowledge, skill, & tenacity to take on such an endeavor.
Thx for sharing the pix & process...like so may things folks share on LDO, I feel smarter for just having seen/read it, even though it's not something I could ever tackle myself. Looking forward to more shares & the grand reveal upon completion.
Lynne
When I got our Lazy Daze last summer my whole hope was that the quality construction and aluminum walls would help me avoid the common industry issue of a rotted out camper. I actually bought it a week after turning down a camper due to delamination and signs of water damage.
That being said, now that I have been inside mine I have lost some faith in the construction practices but also gained confidence to tackle repairs on my own. I certainly wouldn’t want to remove the skins (As some forum members have) and I also wouldn’t want to do overhead repairs. To be thorough I believe in 2019 I will make a goal to remove and reseal all the windows just to be sure.
Knowing the camper we have grown to enjoy is leaking and being damaged by something as simple as rain keeps me up at night, but I believe this is simply just park of owning a home on wheels.
In other news...more updates on our progress!
RVs present an interesting set of conditions that require certain trade-offs and financial considerations.
For LDs, the prime selling points are the large windows and high quality interior appointments. The windows are (very) heavy, and require a rigid frame to both support and prevent body torque/twist (that could result in cracked glass). Given the period of development, wood was (and still is) the chosen material for the body frame. However, that being so, the next logical situation would naturally be leaks and rot over time, which I would guess all LDs experience, even if not entirely evident to even the most diligent owners.
The other factor is of course price, and the need for product turnover and repeat sales. If LD or SOB made an expensive, absolutely bullet proof rig - say out of composite materials - it would both price itself out of the market, and possibly create a body/shell that would outlive a rapidly depreciating and technologically outdated chassis.
IMO, there are two possible solutions: (1) get out of the custom body class C or class A buying segment by getting a unibody class B rig; or (2) get out of the MH segment altogether and get a (high quality) trailer. Both alternatives have drawbacks, of course.
Class Bs are both expensive and small. Expensive because the pressed steel frame/body have to be literally hacked up to fit all the normal RV appliances/appointments. Small because they're just vans - albeit some might be oversized. Trailers by their very nature are, well, trailers, and all that entails.
So, my zen solution is to use your LD with zero expectations. If it leaks, it leaks, but it will still last for 10, 15+ years. Or, if you can't handle the thought of imperfection, get an Airstream and buff it out to your heart's content. The TV/TT route requires money, but the use it and forget it alternative is essentially $ free, even if it has a psychic cost to typical LD owners.
To be thorough I believe in 2019 I will make a goal to remove and reseal all the windows just to be sure.
The window sealant shrinks with age and forms depressions where water can sit. This is especially a problem on the sloped rear window, where water is slow to drain.
Cleaning and resealing around all the windows will go a long way to reducing potential leaks.
It's huge job to pull all the windows, you might want to give resealing around the windows perimeters consideration..
Larry
The previous owners (The Koontz Family!) sealed around all the windows with a clear sealant..in order to reseal and get a good quality bead removing windows to thoroughly remove seals is likely our best bet. Also that will give us a chance to discover any other leaking although we really hope that’s not the case.
There are surely downsides to all areas of the RV segment, a class B/campervan was our original plan but the size offered by a class C just can’t be beat. While a lazy daze has its disadvantages we have literally went and walked through brand new class c’s just to marvel at how much better our 20 year old LD is both designed and built. I’d be hard pressed to find another setup I’d prefer....if anything we hope to someday buy a new/newer lazy daze although the changes are minor compared to ours. It’s a special company building a special product IMO.
These pictures are WONDERFUL to see what's under the skin, thank you!
May I have comments on these three water intrusion questions?
1) If I have a fogged rear window in my 2005 RK, shall I assume I have water leaks/damage in the rear? I had been planning to visit my sister in CA and let the mothership put a new window in, but now I am thinking I might need to pile up a bit more cash for water damage....
2) What is our method for assessing water intrusion? Do we just have to wait til there are water marks on the wall, or wait for musty odor? I have NO odor in this coach.
3) As to intrusion at the corner caps.. I am pretty sure mine have had no sealant applied since the unit was new, but I notice it has hardened, and tho, still in place/looks secure -- there IS cracking here and there, should it be routed out and resealed just on general principles? I see some of you just apply eternabond over existing... Prior owner/s stored 5 years full garage, then 5 years under canvas cover in the south and it's now in (open one side) covered storage in Michigan.
Thanks all, and thanks AGAIN for those pictures of your project -- so helpful to see "behind the curtain."
MJB
So to answer a few questions I have attached pictures of what the sealant applies under the factory looks like after 18 years. I would place no trust in it, it’s frail to say the least.
My top cap has next to Zero separation, I’ve added pictures of the seams and I plan to scrap away all sealant and use the 5200 FC to reseal the top cap edges as well as add 2 screws above the seam.
I know nothing about fogged windows, if I was to guess I would say there’s plenty of situations where the window sealant allowed moisture to enter the panes without there being water intrusion into the RV.
I’ve alwso attached a picture of the joint on the bottom of the window sill, this joint was part of my leaking and is clearly placed to permit water intrusion if not sealed completely. I will be adding a large amount of locktite to the corners and all seams when I seat the window, by having the window out I am able to apply sealant directly to the seams and ensure my leaks are fixed.
In my particular case I was able to open up the access panel to the rear wiring next to the toilet from day 1, there was never any sign whatsoever of water damage, but indeed the framework I was checking was simply falling apart on the opposite side.
Looking forward, any end cap with cracking needs to be sealed, and the best way to seal is to remove the cap and repair the backside with 2 Part abs epoxy, then go ahead and remove/reseal the wood structure, and then reattach the end cap by whatever means you feel will last.
Obviously stuff can be sealed at the seams and likely will be fine for years to come, but at this point since I’m doing all this repair I will be leaning towards the more thorough methods of resealing.
Survey time....
Below is a lineup of stick on window gasket from my local supplier...on the left is the original gasket...it’s been smashed under the window for 2 decades and it was in horrible shape despite the PO sealing around the windows edge.
Not sure what profile to go with, I’m guessing any profile that isn’t too large will work. If anyone has any knowledge on gaskets feel free to chime in!
That being said, now that I have been inside mine I have lost some faith in the construction practices
I was a bit disheartened myself when I saw staples where there should be screws in your pics. Not impressed by that.
Staples are good because they are flexible and ideal for maintaining structure, obviously screws hold tight but they are also difficult to install where the staples were placed. This is the same reason nails are used in framing instead of screws. There was a sizable number of screws but they cannot be seen because they were installed from the outside in.
I plan to use screws where they were originally when I add some extra framing to where I patched the corner. One must be careful when screwing framing this size together since splitting is a very real possibility on 1.5 inch framing.
Truthfully staples hold pretty darn good, if you’ve ever done renovations on a mobile home you will find nearly everything is stapled and it doesn’t come apart easily. The trick when doing these repairs is to pre drill for screws and have the structure stapled and glued before any screws are added to keep from shifting things around.
Staples are good because they are flexible and ideal for maintaining structure, obviously screws hold tight but they are also difficult to install where the staples were placed. There was a sizable number of screws but they cannot be seen because they were installed from the outside in.
I plan to use screws in strategic points where they were originally when I add some extra framing to where I patched the corner. One must be careful when screwing framing this size together since splitting is a very real possibility on 1.5 inch framing.
Truthfully staples hold pretty darn good, if you’ve ever done renovations on a mobile home you will find nearly everything is stapled and it doesn’t come apart easily. The trick when doing these repairs is to pre drill for screws and have the structure stapled and glued before any screws are added to keep from shifting things around.
Pre drilling is essential. My thoughts on staples are from what I've seen in cabinetry and interior of mass produced RVs that fall apart in a few years. I may be biased though in that I've built three houses that I've lived in and done complete remodels of several more homes I flipped. I'm a glue it and screw it guy. Never built an RV though so that could be different.
Edit: In the spirit of accuracy first house was just a one room cabin mostly built with a chainsaw so it may not count. Lol
Very true, that being said lazy daze is not rationing staples or screws or sealant. They absolutely use as much as they expect to need. I personally helped my friend rebuild a jayco trailer that was rotted out and the difference in framing was significant. Even the rotten wood on the Lazy Daze puts up a fight because of how thoroughly affixed everything is.
It’s Glued, Screwed, and tatoooed together
Hi Cor2man; Your wallpaper can be matched with many available vinyl 'papers'. White would not be out of place.
The outside corners, where the corner caps meet, are capped by the factory now with a 1" wide aluminum strap. That started somewhere around 2004. I covered my corner cap joints with strap I got at LD. I had to do the bending. I'm including a picture of mine. I had originally put those screws in to keep the caps tight. I should have done just the cover strip without the screws. The holes for the screws are so close to the edge that the corners eventually break out. RonB
Ron, I ll need to get the "strap" from LD factory. How much was it? Thanks
Dave
Looking forward, any end cap with cracking needs to be sealed, and the best way to seal is to remove the cap and repair the backside with 2 Part abs epoxy, then go ahead and remove/reseal the wood structure, and then reattach the end cap by whatever means you feel will last.
If an end cap is still firmly attached, many times, the cap will be destroyed in the removal process, even when using an oscillating tool to cut the adhesive under the caps.
It's always amazes me that some end caps fall off on their own and others seem to almost be welded to the coach.
I repair such caps in place and seal around the edges, after digging out any old sealant and cleaning, with 5200 FC.
When a firmly attached cap has a badly damaged spot, I will cut the section out and glue in a fresh piece of end cap, making the connection using plastic epoxy.
Renewing the seals around the end caps and windows is a never ending project, when owning an older rig.
Window fogging is seen in 2003+ models and is the result of time and temperature variations breaking down the seal between the inner and out pieces of glass. The fogging is dirt and moisture that have accumulated in between the two pieces of glass. There is no way to clean the glass in situ.
The cure is to replace the entire window or have the glass disassembled, cleaned and resealed.
Larry
It’s Glued, Screwed, and tatoooed together
A good description of LD's construction techniques, trying to disassemble anything LD has built can be very frustrating and destructive. I have never seen any other RV built in this time consuming way. The entire coach and interior becomes structural.
One reason why so many owner have unknown rot is because a good deal of structure can be lost before it shows, where in a less built RV, it will fall apart.
Larry
"Renewing the seals around the end caps and windows is a never ending project, when owning an older rig."
----
Oh, yes, it is indeed, and as soon as it warms and dries up a little, this tedious "seal redux" project is on the list (again) for my 2003. (Ladder, scrubbing, solvent-ing, blue tape, 5200 FC, popsicle stick smoothing, multi-layers of nitrile gloves, shop towels, aaarrrggghhh.... !) ::)
"Renewing the seals around the end caps and windows is a never ending project, when owning an older rig."
Oh, yes, it is indeed, and as soon as it warms and dries up a little, this tedious "seal redux" project is on the list (again) for my 2003. (Ladder, scrubbing, solvent-ing, blue tape, 5200 FC, popsicle stick smoothing, multi-layers of nitrile gloves, shop towels, aaarrrggghhh.... !) ::)
Tending to our LDs is what keeps us alive.....between trips.
Larry
"Tending to our LDs is what keeps us alive.....between trips."
----
Trips are good! And a "maintenance elf" would also be real helpful in keeping the dream and me alive! :D
Hi Dave; The strap is what runs down the side of the motorhome, to cover the seam between the floor, and the side skirts. You need to order it without holes. Just a few dollars I think. I was at the factory buying lots of other items. It doesn't come pre-bent, well maybe it does. Ask LD to see if they will pre bend it. That would make it a lot easier. Heck, it might come with holes too. At a price I'm sure.
I just got straight. You might want to get some to practice on. I remember making lots of trips between my vise, and the LD. I mark where I want the strip to go with painters tape. Try to keep the strip parallel to the paint patterns nearby. Then bend the curve until I got it to fit. I bent it over a smooth, rounded piece of wood, clamped in the vise. then mark the ends and saw it to fit. File off the ends to shape, then drill the holes. I start with a small diameter hole about a 3/32". Use a center punch first. I tape the piece in place, and use it to keep the drill from wandering as I drill a guide hole, just 5/8" deep. Then I increase the size of the hole to fit the screw. Stainless flat or oval head sheet metal screw either #6 or #8. I'm going to guess #8. https://www.boltdepot.com/Product-Details.aspx?product=2215&gclid=CjwKCAiAyMHhBRBIEiwAkGN6fGCTRqFBu4XJ_A5PaGK6jwxQw68Mt-8jiRfWm2sjnvscb95vHLu7IxoCWN0QAvD_BwE Making the countersink relief was touchy. I wrapped the piece in painters tape to protect the white finish a few times. I painted it with polar white spray, and then glued it in place with caulk. I use Amazon.com: Dap 18285 Dynaflex 230 Premium Indoor Outdoor Sealant with... (https://www.amazon.com/18285-Dynaflex-Premium-Outdoor-5-5-Ounce/dp/B0058I2MD2/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1546711580&sr=8-5&keywords=dynaflex+230) because it can be wiped away with water. Good luck with your cosmetic repair. I find that the metal strip also holds the ends of the ABS corner moldings down and in place. RonB
Bad news folks.
Sadly, i was wrong. Looks like our water damage is also on the opposite side. Pretty worried about this because I have a shower in the way as far as access goes. Has anyone patched this up from the outside?
That escalated quickly.....
So in short, the only way to properly fix this mess is to remove the rear paneling...the paneling does not come off easily.
The bumper doesn’t come off easily.
The indention for the tire carrier does not come off easily.
I will say now that it’s off I have an overwhelming feeling of relief, but repairs are going to be difficult. I’d say the most expensive part of a project like this is buying enough sealant to put it back together to original spec, I have never in my life seen so much sealant applied to every square inch of anything.
That escalated quickly.....
I’d say the most expensive part of a project like this is buying enough sealant to put it back together to original spec, I have never in my life seen so much sealant applied to every square inch of anything.
Wow!, you never know what is hidden out of sight. That is a huge amount of work just to get to the rotted section.
Thanks for the photos, I have never disassemble the rear of an LD, and your RB has the same rear wall construction as our 2003 23.5' FL. Good to know that comes apart without too much destruction. Did the end caps come off easily, were they loose to begin with ?
It's been said that every LD contain the contents of a 50 gallon barrel of polyurethane sealant. It isn't too much of an exaggeration. It's part of the reason why even rotted LDs can hold together without obvious indications.
Larry
Wow, this shows the importance of good maintenance of seams, and a good pre-purchase inspection; but I'm wondering if even a good inspection would have uncovered the extent of the damage found?
Larry, the end caps were absolutely a pain to get off. They was no lifting at all they had just leaked at the seam.
I’m not sure what the hardest part was, overall it look a large amount of persuasion to get the upper aluminum skin to slid out of position, it also look a lot of work to get the 2 halves of the lower fiberglass portion removed. They overlap in the middle.
The bumper was glued with the Super tough LD adhesive all the way down the bottom of the coach, took about an hour with a multi tool to break it free.
Overall with some patience it’s a doable job, by having it apart I’ll be able to properly replace the rot quicker and get a more thorough repair, replacing the panels is a simple task, just reseal the seals and press them together and fasten with staples/screws.
Personally I have no formal background in any of this, so this is quite the learning experience. My only hope is no other windows/seams have leaked before, because id really like not do this again for a while!
An inspection would have found some slightly soft wood right behind the bumper, in reality everything else was completely solid.
Cor2man (name?), I applaud your diligence and persistence; the discoveries of the extent of the water damage must be really disheartening! Yes, it’s a learning experience, and one that few want to deal with, but good on ya for hanging in there! 👍
Name is Zane, we certainly wish the water hadn’t happened but owning and using an RV as a young person means staying within a budget that means dealing with issues.
Zane--
I want to echo Joan's "...good on ya for hanging in there!" Thx for the pix of this odyssey.
RE: "Personally I have no formal background in any of this, so this is quite the learning experience."
You remind me of a really great audiobook (https://www.amazon.com/Rise-How-House-Built.../1250095662) I listened to during one of my trips to Texas this fall, about a single mom who built a house with her kids. Though she had intermittent help from a few folks & hired a few things like the electrical, she talked about most of what they figured out came from youtube videos.
When I see some of the things that folks accomplish on this site, I find myself encouraged to try some things I'd have never considered...even if they are only baby steps compared to what you are doing, Zane.
Lynne
"...but owning and using an RV as a young person means staying within a budget that means dealing with issues."
----
;) A necessity for most owners of all ages. Many on this board have repeated the counsel (multiple times!) that RVs and the associated lifestyle are not an inexpensive endeavor, and those who buy a rig, even one in reasonably good condition, and expect to blithely head off down the road usually hit the "reality wall" pretty quickly. Doing repair and maintenance work oneself can save a lot of cash, but for those who don't have the skill sets, tools, abilities, or desire to do so will need to search out competent service and repair shops and pay them to do the work needed to keep the RV from falling apart. Shop labor charges in the area where I live run about $150-$200 per hour, and parts costs are almost always "maximized"; doing whatever work on the rig that is within one's own skill set can be a cash-saver! (And fun and satisfying, particularly if the work involves getting a new tool! ;) )
Zane,
just keep saying "$175/hour is what my time is worth in this".
And when you are done, you will have full confidence in the quality of workmanship.
And know the per gallon cost of sealant :)
Great work and thanks for the photo documentation.
Joel
Little more rot, the entire framework for the passenger side is compromised.
Little more rot, the entire framework for the passenger side is compromised.
Zane,
Based on your post 7 month ago about your RV, I was under the impression tthat you did not have any doubts that this RV had any issues. Hindsight, did you suspect any sort of leakage or issues with this RV? Did you smell any mold? I'm sure if these issues were identified then, it could ve been a good leverage for a better deal. Wouldn't you agree? I myself bought a used 2003 LD RB model couple years back and I'm wondering if behind the end caps have the same issues as yours. Hopefully not.. lol. Thanks for sharing your work and your findings here. We appreciate it! -Dave
Honestly I did not believe any issues were present to this extent. If my memory serves me right I made 3 separate visits to inspect the unit and knew there was a slightly soft spot on the exposed wood behind the bumper but because I didn’t know how these were framed out at the time I didn’t conclude damage was present. The walls all felt solid as a rock including the ladder supports despite being completely rotted.
Made progress on Sunday, we got all the bad wood that we could cut out and replaced. Still using screws, construction adhesive, and staples to reattach every new piece. Hopefully we got everything pretty solid, felt that way Atleast.
We reattached the aluminum body Panel. The rear profile looks pretty good and the end cap appears to fit good.
I did a (comparatively) small repair around the passenger side cab window 5 years ago. It's held pretty dry & tight since then, but your photos jog a few memories. For what's it's worth, here are a few personal observations & tips:
1. LDs were never meant to be taken apart and repaired. It's a small business that focuses all its energy and attention on building a super solid, premium RV. While the mothership does provide information and advice on how to manage/prevent water intrusion, IMO it's implicitly understood that this relates to a 10 year, maybe 15 year ownership cycle. I know of no other industry - other than aerospace - that builds with the expectation of a longer service cycle and maintenance program. Since the RV industry overall operates under a very short 2 year buy/use/abandon cycle, 10-15 years is eternity. It's a credit to LD that these rigs actually last as long as they do.
2. As Larry and some others have pointed out, LD uses a ton of staples & sealant to keep everything fastened & glued together. Ironically, this ends up in some ways to help provide the necessary infrastructure when wood rot destroys the frame's internal integrity. While you are currently fighting these elements, note that you can use the same tools & methods to your own advantage. When I had finished replacing certain struts and had put on new paneling, I filled the internal areas with a ton of expanding insulation. As long as it doesn't expand so far as to distort/warp the paneling, you essentially end up with a semi-solid block of insulation throughout the entire repair area that forms additional support.
3. Lastly, IMO, the absolute key to any restoration/repair project are the finishing touches. That is, you need to do a great job on making sure the struts are even on the panel fastening side. It doesn't matter if you're a master woodworker fitting the various struts together under some intricate jig if the external surface is even 1/4" off. That bulge and warble is going to show on the paneling, and make the job look less than professional. What I did was to make sure all the supporting elements were in place to provide the necessary strength. But I spent a lot of time fitting the paneling and making sure it was flat/level along the eyesight line. That means getting out the Drexel and/or planer to get everything just right. Once the paneling is straight, you can back fill with insulation. Lastly, got to a fabric store to find the wall paper material (color/pattern/texture) that best matches your existing fascia. I got a really good match that most people don't notice unless I point it out to them.
I believe my framework is going to match up pretty darn good.
The biggest issue I’m currently facing is the end cap cracks. I have fixed the cracks with 2 Park epoxy for plastic but on 1 end cap I have a significant crack. It is very difficult to work expoxy into the crack and if not completely filled/repaired water will freeze in the void during the winter causing further damage.
When I had finished replacing certain struts and had put on new paneling, I filled the internal areas with a ton of expanding insulation. As long as it doesn't expand so far as to distort/warp the paneling, you essentially end up with a semi-solid block of insulation throughout the entire repair area that forms additional support.
When using expanding foam, make sure it forms closed cells,
Some foams form open cells and absorbs water like a sponge, not the hot ticket for a long-term repair.
I test expandable foam by shooting a blob of it into a bucket. Once cured, fill the bucket with water and see if the foam absorbs any over a several hour test period.
Larry
I believe my final method of ensuring no further cracking allows water damage will be to coat the 5200 FC on the backside of any cracked portion of the cap. Hopefully by doing this if cracks occur I will have a waterproof membrane on the backside of the cap that keeps moisture out.
Basically I’m going to “back butter” the end cap in specific areas directly before screwing/pressing it in place. I’ll prob spread a thin layer of 5200 within a 1 inch radius of any repairs cracking. Of course I will have it thoroughly taped off and I’ll wipe off all excess sealant to get nice clean lines.
I considered closed cell expanding foam along my exposed lower wood work. I just know it’s a pain down the road if I ever have to repair anything. Of course to put it back together and sleep good knowing it’s watertight I’ll be using enough sealant to never want to take it apart again regardless!
Progress....
Today after work we started putting panels back on, got the aluminum panel completely mounted and the Fiberglass panels mounted. Per Vince and the mothership we are applying PLs40 to every possible joint.
Everything went back together pretty good, it’s nearly impossible for everything to fit absolutely perfect because so much framing was rebuilt but overal nearly all holes line up and everything mounts decent. End caps may not mount as good as I want but there’s little I can do about that.
We applied a very liberal coating of sealant on the exposed wood at the corners, we also went ahead and sealed the seams in the aluminum (per Vince’s recommendation). Obviously all the white sealant sticks out like a sore thumb on the brown paint but no doubt it will get dirty and blend over time!
One thing to consider when doing a job like this is applying caulk, it can be very difficult to manually apply caulk in the volumes needed to seal everything properly. For this reason I spent 44 bucks on a ryobi battery caulk gun, I have an old ryobi drill set I rarely use but the batteries will run the caulk gun.
With an electric caulk gun you can effortlessly apply loads of sealant in short order just like the factory. It’s quite wonderful in my opinion.
"Today after work we started putting panels back on..."
I am in total awe! Not only for the quality of the work but more about the rapidity at which it was accomplished. Let me guess, have you been an understudy with Larry?? :o
I'm with lazy bones here, you can get some work done. Nice job....
Jon...
It’s gonna snow here on Saturday and the cold weather slows the curing of all polyurethane sealant, so we have little choice but to work and get it done. That being said we are not sacrificing quality, just sleep lol.
Despite my epoxy repairs my end caps will likely still have some cracks once applied and screwed down, I’ve been fairly worried about them but I plan to let them crack during installation and just confirm proper amounts of 5200 has been applied to the backside of the cap to keep water from intruding regardless. The caps don’t fit the Body perfectly especially after all these repairs. By best choice is to let them flex how they need and the 5200 will hold it together.
Also the cap behind the rear tire has lots of cracks forming around the screws, because this piece flex’s a lot during install we left the cracks and just bedded in large amounts of sealant, I may remove the screws we mounted it with and add screws with pan heads to even out the pressure.
I’ve ordered captain trolleys creeping sealant, it will be here Thursday and I plan to put a bead on any possible cracks especially anything I find on the front caps.
Friday evening the shed comes down and Saturday the RV is back to facing the elements.
"...captain trolleys creeping sealant"
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Just a FYI: In my experience, Captain Tolley's Creeping Crack Sealant works for hairline cracks and may work for slightly larger cracks if a tiny "stop hole" is drilled at the crack end. For anything larger than tiny cracks, the 5200 FC is a better solution, even though the aesthetics may not be entirely desirable.
YMMV, as always.
Despite my epoxy repairs my end caps will likely still have some cracks once applied and screwed down, The caps don’t fit the Body perfectly especially after all these repairs.
Also the cap behind the rear tire has lots of cracks forming around the screws, because this piece flex’s a lot during install we left the cracks and just bedded in large amounts of sealant, I may remove the screws we mounted it with and add screws with pan heads to even out the pressure.
The slight inconsistencies you have seen when installing the old caps exists in every LD, each one has its own unique dimensions This is why you see the end caps screwed down in so many different places, when going from rig to rig.
New end caps are very flexible and can be coerced into position. This forcing does induce stresses that can eventually result in cracking of the installed caps. Old, used caps have lost a lot of their flexibility, due to age.
To deal with the cracks, either pack the cracks full of polyurethane or open them up slightly, with a Dremmel, and repair with plastic epoxy.
When screwing down the end caps, pre-drill the screw holes in the caps oversize, one or two drill sizes larger to prevent cracking. Do not over tighten, just pull the cap into place.
I agree with Joan, Captain Tolley's is not useful in this situation.
Larry
10-4 will do, should have the window installed and the first cap in place after work today.
This has been an amazing project to watch unfold. Thanks for that.
Jim
Tonight we installed the window and the first end cap.
Widow was installed with a brand new gasket and bedded in locktite Pls40. It was difficult to seat it right enough due to the brand new thick gasket but with patience we got it all seated and sealed.
The end cap was bedded in 5200FC with extra stainless screws added to hold it in place, 2 extra screws were added to the top cap to secure it long term.
5200 is just as horrible to work with as everyone says but with patience a fairly decent caulk line can be achieved.
We applied 5200 to the backside of the cap around our pre drilled screw holes and around any cracking. Per our pictures we didn’t hold back on the sealant, if water ever finds its way behind our end caps again it will drain out the bottom long before it finds any wood to rot out!
Which gasket did you end up using?
From the picture I posted the larger D gasket, 2nd from the left
Thanks to Cor2man for this project chronology. I think I may have the same issue on at least one side of my LD and I was assuming at some point I'd have a very expensive fix in my future. Don't think I ever would have just dug in cold turkey as Cor2man did but now that I've seen behind the mysterious curtain and watched the project from beginning to end I'm almost looking forward to fixing mine as a home project. Lots and lots of work but very doable. If there was a place in this forum to nominate a thread for best thread of the year perhaps best thread ever I would nominate this one.
Camping trip booked for next weekend! We are in the final stretch.
Camping trip booked for next weekend! We are in the final stretch.
That is gonna feel good and I predict a bottle of champagne in your future as you celebrate the fruits of your labor. Nostrivia!
A shot of wild turkey American honey will be the celebratory gulp of choice!
A shot of wild turkey American honey will be the celebratory gulp of choice!
Zane,
If you dont mine me asking, just an estimation, how much time and money will you say you spent on this project. Thank you. -Dave
Camping trip booked for next weekend! We are in the final stretch.
It's good to be young and have the energy to complete such an in depth repair so quickly.
I know you have put in a lot of hours to get this completed. Well done!
Now, go have some fun.
And if you desire another career, qualified RV repairers, especially for LDs, are hard to find.
You could make a good living repairing and enhancing East Coast LDs.
Larry
Not sure about what it’s cost, our temp shed likely Cost 120-150 bucks.
Prob 100 on wood (Luan is stupid expensive at Home Depot)
Prob 120 on various sealant (we prob have leftover)
Say 50 for miscellaneous hardware (we replaced all screws with stainless excluding the primary bumper mounting screws)
A couple hundred bucks so overal the repair wasn’t that big of a financial investment.
The biggest cost for a project like is would be the proper tools to work quickly and avoid countless hours trying to complete a task with the incorrect tools. Luckily we live in a double wide and have done enough renovations in the past year to have obtained enough tooling to start a carpentry business. (Doublewides are an absolute nightmare to renovate)
Tire cover installed and partial sealant applied on the lower exposed wood. Tomorrow we finish sealing the bottom and start cleaning the paint up and rebuilding the inside. Feels good to have it back “together”
Feels good to have it back “together”
You certainly have a considerable amount of LD accomplishments to feel good about ... proud is a much better word. A heart felt well done from Fort Worth, Texas.
Looks good as new, maybe better.
Fit and finish of my caulk lines are pretty horrid in person....but polyurethane especially 5200 is a nightmare to work with when it’s cold dark and windy. Also painters tap does not peel off in the cold, which contributes to fit and finish mistakes.
We Could have had better results in the summer but we didn’t exactly get to choose when this project began haha
Chris, I know it's only January, but I vote this one for Toy 2019 (Thread Of the Year).
Interior patched up, all seams/edges will be caulked with sandable caulk and sanded down to a nice finish. Then we will be painting all the paneling a nice clean color.
Chris, I know it's only January, but I vote this one for Toy 2019 (Thread Of the Year).
Since I may have the same issue on at least the passenger side this thread has been immensely helpful and I now have no qualms about doing a job myself that I previously was going to shell out big bucks for. This is the kind of stuff that makes forums worth the effort to view and participate in.
It also has me wondering why LD which obviously must know the rear of the RV is prone to this type of failure doesn't use pressure treated lumber and marine grade plywood in this area but what's done is done and I'm not sure a repair with those materials would be necessary due to the age and life expectancy of the vehicle being repaired not to mention the owner doing the repair is well aware of the end cap issue and will religiously maintain it.
As a side note wouldn't it be a good idea for a wooden framed RV to be built completely with pressure treated lumber or am I missing something here? Cost isn't that much more so maybe there is some other reason? Home building codes require all !umber with potential risk of moisture to be pressure treated so I can't see why that wouldn't apply to an RV in theory.
The chemicals in pressure treated wood scares some people off, and in my area pressure treated is almost always so full of moisture that I would be scared to seal back over in during reconstruction until it dried completely (months later)
If I had to make a design change I would move the aluminum seams away from the rear window seal and do a more thourough job of sealing the exposed wood behind the bumper. It’s a slippery slope because obviously you don’t want to trap water if a leak occurs but you need to keep leaks from occurring for decades to come.
The aluminum skin is stapled in place, it would have been ideal to use countersunk screws covered in sealant instead of exposed staples with nothing but the end cap tape covering them, if a leak occurs it’s almost guaranteed to hit one of the hundreds of exposed staples and begin rusting through to the frame.
I used staples where the factory did but because I used an entire tube of 5200 per end cap I can be confident that if water ever gets through my seals it will have nowhere to go but out of the end cap hole on the bottom. Thus far I have left that hole open, this allows water from end cap fractures a route to exit and with the amount of sealant I applied I don’t see any chance of water reaching any wood Work.
The chemicals in pressure treated wood scares some people off, and in my area pressure treated is almost always so full of moisture that I would be scared to seal back over in during reconstruction until it dried completely (months later)
If I had to make a design change I would move the aluminum seams away from the rear window seal and do a more thourough job of sealing the exposed wood behind the bumper. It’s a slippery slope because obviously you don’t want to trap water if a leak occurs but you need to keep leaks from occurring for decades to come.
The aluminum skin is stapled in place, it would have been ideal to use countersunk screws covered in sealant instead of exposed staples with nothing but the end cap tape covering them, if a leak occurs it’s almost guaranteed to hit one of the hundreds of exposed staples and begin rusting through to the frame.
I used staples where the factory did but because I used an entire tube of 5200 per end cap I can be confident that if water ever gets through my seals it will have nowhere to go but out of the end cap hole on the bottom. Thus far I have left that hole open, this allows water from end cap fractures a route to exit and with the amount of sealant I applied I don’t see any chance of water reaching any wood Work.
I myself wondered if pressure treated wood in such an enclosed environment night migrate fumes to the interior of the coach and maybe that's the reasoning for not using it.. Like what you did with end caps and it's a method I will emulate. The exposed wood by the bumper should definitely have been pressure treated when originally manufactured in my opinion especially because it's at a part of the vehicle which is naturally going to get tremendous water spray on wet roads. Don't think I'll bother when I do mine though due to the age of the vehicle because a good sealing job as you did will likely outlast the rig itself.
On a side issue old style pressure treated wood with it's poisonous properties has been replaced with new methods that are supposedly far less toxic to the environment. Latest house I built I used wolmanized pressure treated lumber. Remains to be seen if it works as well as the old stuff though.
Lonza Wood Protection - Products for Pressure Treated Wood & Lumber (https://www.wolmanizedwood.com)
Building the frame out of pressure treated wood would turn the Mothership into a toxic waste zone.
Pressure treated wood dust is toxic and long-term skin exposure and frequent or prolonged inhalation isn't allowed.
LD would have to change the Factory and the way they build their coaches, it ain't gong happen anytime soon.
Just can't see the Factory crew working all day wearing hazmat suits and respirators, especially during Montclair's very hot summers. The Factory isn't air conditioned.
If you never had to work this way, you don't know what you are missing. BTDTGTT
While marine plywood would be great, it cost many times more than common plywood and probably wouldn't make a difference in rot resistance. Marine plywood rots as well any other wood, until it is preserved with resin or paint.
What makes marine ply unique is its many layers of wood and a lack of voids, along with being assembled with a waterproof adhesive.
LD already uses exterior grade plywood in the structural areas.
Larry
Using stainless fasteners helps, from what I can tell the worst case for water intrusion is corner caps cracking and even worse the painted exterior screws corroding away and allowing water penetration. We used all stainless hardware since we aren’t worried about color matching. Hopefully this gives us a fighting chance long term.
Building the frame out of pressure treated wood would turn the Mothership into a toxic waste zone.
Pressure treated wood dust is toxic and long-term skin exposure and frequent or prolonged inhalation isn't allowed.
LD would have to change the Factory and the way they build their coaches, it ain't gong happen anytime soon.
Just can't see the Factory crew working all day wearing hazmat suits and respirators, especially during Montclair's very hot summers. The Factory isn't air conditioned.
If you never had to work this way, you don't know what you are missing. BTDTGTT
While marine plywood would be great, it cost many times more than common plywood and probably wouldn't make a difference in rot resistance. Marine plywood rots as well any other wood, until it is preserved with resin or paint.
What makes marine ply unique is its many layers of wood and a lack of voids, along with being assembled with a waterproof adhesive.
LD already uses exterior grade plywood in the structural areas.
Larry
Good point on marine plywood and I agree sawdust from pressure treated lumber would have it's problems in an enclosed environment so I have a new thought on that. Cedar lumber. Definitely more expensive but very rot resistant. You seem extremely knowledgeable on all things LD so do you have any idea the total cost of lumber in one? Whatever that is it would be roughly double for cedar but I wouldn't think that would really add that much to the cost of the coach. Another thing is cedar is a bit lighter than fir and larch which would be desirable in a motorhome. Western red cedar is 23 lbs per cubic foot while fir and larch is 32 lbs per cubic foot. Only downside is it's also roughly half as strong but still plenty strong for application in a motorhome. Not like your supporting a snow load on a house roof with a twenty foot span. Think I'll send this idea into the mothership. LOL
Amazing! Thx for the ride-along.
Larry said, "...if you desire another career, qualified RV repairers, especially for LDs, are hard to find.
You could make a good living repairing and enhancing East Coast LDs."
Indeed. To you original skill & gung-ho/git-'er-done attitude, you can now add knowledge of LD anatomy. West of the Rockies there's Larry & a host of other wizards, now you're east of the Appalachians...flyover country is still a bit of a desert :( , but one can hope.
Have a great time on your trip...looks like our ten inches of snow is headed more to the NE than your direction.
Lynne
Thanks a million for the pictures. Our 97RB needs some work done below the passenger side window just ahead of the entry door. Hopefully, not as extensive as you have done. At least I have a garage to do it in :) As far as I know, these are the only pics of a rear bath torn apart that I'm aware of. To many, they will be priceless.
Chuck
97RB
Iowa
these are the only pics of a rear bath torn apart that I'm aware of
To many, they will be priceless.
Chuck
97RB
Iowa
Couldn't agree more. Knowing what's under the skin is a huge help and I have nothing but admiration for Cor2man for digging in "where no man has gone before". Yes I'm a recovering trekie.
Cor2Man that is some nice work! I had almost the exact damage on our '92. The repair thread is in here somewhere. Only thing I did different was to remove the spare tire cover and get into the area behind it. Inside I used new luan and painted the whole lounge area, and added a nice cabinet full length under the window where the shelf was. Good luck!
Paul I have your pictures saved! We wanted to do everything without removing the skin but there just wasn’t sufficient access from the spare tire cover, if love to add storage like you did but I don’t like my carpentry would turn out as clean as yours did!
Paul I have your pictures saved! We wanted to do everything without removing the skin but there just wasn’t sufficient access from the spare tire cover, if love to add storage like you did but I don’t like my carpentry would turn out as clean as yours did!
Paul has the skills to be a cabinet maker, I have seen the work he has done in his home, Dodge camper van and the repair work and cabinet in his LD.
Very impressive!
Larry
Got the inside “mostly” put together, 3 coats of paint and the paneling is still showing through. Overal painting everything the light color is pretty bland and any recommendations on how to spruce it up would be appreciated.
Applying a coat of “Kilz” prior to painting will help with the bleed through.
Haha I considered that and obviously should have.
RE: "...any recommendations on how to spruce it up would be appreciated. "
I've not yet jumped into any projects, but Ed & Margee's kitchen tile keeps calling to me. I can see something like that working nicely in a bathroom. There's a piece of me that's also drawn to painting cabinets white.
Great job on this project. Thx for sharing the journey...looking forward to your camping pix.
Lynne
Got the inside “mostly” put together, 3 coats of paint and the paneling is still showing through. Overal painting everything the light color is pretty bland and any recommendations on how to spruce it up would be appreciated.
Looks really good in the pics but wallpaper would always be an option.
For what it counts, I think your work looks great. Would a larger piece of Laminate still adhere to the area by the toilet then you
would only have to dress up smaller areas and maybe with time you won't notice anything.
First trip of the year was a success.
Took a trip up to Asheville for a chilly weekend, temps got down to 10 and we had a significant amount of rain, lazy daze performed flawless despite the cold.
Only issue we had to deal with was significant condensation, we kept vents open but had large amounts of interior condensation/window freeze. When we got home we turned on the fans and left the vents open for 24 hours, hopefully this dries up any moisture.
Overall the wife and the K9 had a great time, here’s to 2019 and the adventures to follow!
I have a soft spot for all dogs but yours is a really nice looking dog. Gets his own sleeping bag too.
She’s a high maintenance pup but she makes up for it in good looks!
Camping with a Malinois will nearly guarantee plenty of time is spent outside.
"Camping with a Malinois will nearly guarantee plenty of time is spent outside."
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Ditto with a Heeler/GSP cross. (I didn't show her the sleeping bag! ;) )
Yay! for you all...thx for the pix--what an attentive baby. ;D
Here's to many more for y'all.
Lynne
Cor2man,
Thank you for taking the time to post all of the details of your repair. Excellent work! I am sure it will last a long time.