My End Caps decided to separate all at once. I started to wonder if more was going on. A lot of cracks around screws that were not there.
Vince said he's very busy at this time of year. I didn't make an appointment but now I'm afraid to take my LD out on road.
Kathy,
From the looks of your pictures, the screws may have been over tightened at some point. Possibly in an attempt to close any gaps that may have existed between the end caps and the coach body.
To be frank the repair cost for all that you have shown is going to be high if done at the Mothership. Very high indeed if you want all the plastic parts replaced. Vince will most certainly advise you against any drastic repairs such as that. The end cap replacement for my RB was fairly expensive and my rig was not under warranty.
The question then is...How long have the cracks been there and how long has the gap existed where the end cap joins the body? Basically...has it rained on the rig?
Others on the forum may suggest using a sealer to fill the gaps and another product to stop the cracks from growing at the screw heads.
Harold mentioned Captain Tolley’s Creeping Crack Cure. I purchased a tube on Amazon for about $15. This may be a fine solution for all your cracks.
My end cap was not a pretty sight and it definitely needed to be addressed pronto. Vince was extremely kind to fit me in. This is not the norm as his schedule is packed. I saw his calendar and it is booked solid through the end of the year.
As your end cap has not sheared off like mine, you may very well be able to address these issues on your own and at a far less expensive ticket price.
Water intrusion is a concern where the end cap (or round as my repair ticket referred to it as) has opened a bit. I’m not so sure if backing out the nearby screws would allow the plastic to reseat itself. I hesitate to suggest that it will. Larry may be able to offer a better alternative, but it is a certainty that you would do well to stop the cracks around the screws and do what you can to address the issue on your own.
Just me and my check book talking. Other opinions may vary or as Joan says YMMV.
Best of luck.
Kent
"From the looks of your pictures, the screws may have been over tightened at some point."
I would definitely agree with Kent's assessment, those screws being seated so tightly has led to the cracking. The overall job is obviously a prior rework by someone. ::)
Regarding the separation between the upper and lower sections of the rear end cap, there should be two narrow strips covering those gaps and obviously they are missing. :(
Kent said:
"The end cap replacement for my RB was fairly expensive and my rig was not under warranty."
I was under the impression that the Lazy Daze warranty for their part of the build was pretty extensive. This sounds the opposite of that. Can you elaborate on what Lazy Daze said when you contacted them for this anomaly?
Virtual hugs,
Judie
Judie,
It is my understanding that the coach framework is given a lifetime warranty to the original owner. This warranty will be void if framework is damaged due to water intrusion due to the negligence of any owner be it the original or others down the line.
ABS plastic is a strange beast. In my line of work, maintaining equipment in a commercial printer, I have seen plastic parts wear evenly and last for a decade or more while identical machines have their plastic parts fail much sooner and even sooner their replacement parts fail. It’s mostly likely due to “quality” assurance of the plastics being produced.
Vince acknowledged that my situation was outside the norm but also acknowledged that not all plastic parts are created equal. I’m just glad mine has been repaired and hope the opposite side of the rig doesn’t suffer the same tragic end.
As Kathy’s rig is nearly 18 years old, I’d say that she is fairing very well.
Just sayin’
Kent
All,
After reading this thread I went and checked by rig. I found two screw locations on the driver side front that have small cracks. These should be easy to deal with as they are not too big - yet. However, I found the end cap that runs top to bottom along the passenger side, front, has a pretty good gap developing its entire length. I don't see any sealant in the space so it looks prime to suck in some water and do damage. What are folks using to fill this gap? Also, is it the same product I can use on the windows. My windows are in fairly good condition but I want to be proactive. I have a 2006 rear kitchen,
Thanks
Bob
All,
What are folks using to fill this gap? Also, is it the same product I can use on the windows. My windows are in fairly good condition but I want to be proactive.
The sealant between the window frame and the sheet aluminum shrinks over time, forming a channel, on the top, that holds water. Window frame leaks are common on older models.
Sideways cracks are difficult to seal, having very little surface area to bond to.
Once again, 3M 5200 Fast Cure has proven to work better than anything else I have tried in the last 30 years.
Larry
Thanks Larry,
To bring the 3M 5200 into perspective here is a quick YouTube from the folks at West Marine and 3M.
https://youtu.be/mQremN3g51E
They mention other products in the 5200 family as it were, but the 5200 has received a lot of praise here on the forum.
Of course sometimes a good thing can be too good...https://youtu.be/dgJGTvx0gIE
Kent
My End Caps decided to separate all at once. I started to wonder if more was going on. A lot of cracks around screws that were not there.
Vince said he's very busy at this time of year. I didn't make an appointment but now I'm afraid to take my LD out on road.
Scary pics. I feel your pain. Hope you can get this stuff under control.
The sealant between the window frame and the sheet aluminum shrinks over time, forming a channel, on the top, that holds water. Window frame leaks are common on older models.
Sideways cracks are difficult to seal, having very little surface area to bond to.
Once again, 3M 5200 Fast Cure has proven to work better than anything else I have tried in the last 30 years.
Larry
This thread made me go look at my LD and I found some small cracking around three screws on the verticle seam along passenger side door. To me it looks like years of stress against these small screw heads has fatigued the plastic. What do you think about removing the screws and adding a small washer to spread the pressure out?
Edit: I found some rubber washers and installed them. Looks good but we shall see. Tried to put pics on but couldn't figure out how.
Edit two: My wife figured it out. She's the brains of the outfit.
Kathy,
I'm not an expert on end caps, but I don't find your photographs too alarming. The small cracks by screw heads are common. You could seal those up with some of the sealants recommended here. Just don't use silicone. Other separations are below floor level where I don't believe there is any wood framing. No, it's not ideal but I don't see a reason not to use your coach.
You don't say where you are but your profile says you might be in SoCal. If so I'd take your LD by the factory on a weekday morning and ask Vince to take a look at all this and give you an assessment of your situation, the likelihood of leaks into the framing and your options. Then go from there.
The question then is...How long have the cracks been there and how long has the gap existed where the end cap joins the body? Basically...has it rained on the rig?
Thanks Ken so much for the quick response. The cracks have just recently shown up and the gaps a few weeks. NO RAIN! On Memorial Weekend I took grandkids to Campland San Diego and in certain areas of the 5 Freeway I noticed it was a rough ride. The gaps have slowly shown up along with the cracks. I have read your post and many others about this. As soon as I saw the cracks around screws and had a gut feeling the previous owner must have tightened them. But, I have had my 2000 for 2 yrs. How could all of this happen at once? YIKES The previous owner took the rig to the Mothership in 2016 to have caps done on top along with all new vents.
I have not taken it anywhere this year except to beach or around town. I wanted to go on a road trip but will have to put off until this is taken care of. I had called Vince when I noticed a few spots where cap was gapping and he said not a good time but I could swing by so they can have a look. Then the caps began to really separate. I will read up on this and check back.
Love this Forum and appreciate all the help!
"From the looks of your pictures, the screws may have been over tightened at some point."
I would definitely agree with Kent's assessment, those screws being seated so tightly has led to the cracking. The overall job is obviously a prior rework by someone. ::)
Regarding the separation between the upper and lower sections of the rear end cap, there should be two narrow strips covering those gaps and obviously they are missing. :(
OH NO! Really! 2 narrow strips? SIGH
Kathy,
I'm not an expert on end caps, but I don't find your photographs too alarming. The small cracks by screw heads are common. You could seal those up with some of the sealants recommended here. Just don't use silicone. Other separations are below floor level where I don't believe there is any wood framing. No, it's not ideal but I don't see a reason not to use your coach.
You don't say where you are but your profile says you might be in SoCal. If so I'd take your LD by the factory on a weekday morning and ask Vince to take a look at all this and give you an assessment of your situation, the likelihood of leaks into the framing and your options. Then go from there.
Terry, thank you so much! I'm in Huntington Beach and am about an hour away from LD Factory. YES, Vince did say bring it by and I wasn't sure when would be a good time. But, will do so. I just love my LAZY DAZE an want to keep it up! I would even like to have it painted! It runs great and I did have some concerns about shocks and have read this forum on it. It does have a rough ride at times and have 71,000 miles on it. The previous owner did go to the Factory to have roof done; that alone gave me comfort into buying the rig. I am a widow and without this forum I think I would be lost. My Husband loved Lazy Daze but procrastinated buying one. Thanks again! Much appreciate everyone's input and will update.
"2 narrow strips? "
Kathy
Since my daughter (Lazy Bones 2) just brought my LD back home yesterday, this morning I went out and measured the "narrow strips". They are 6" long by 1" wide and wrap around the corner, covering the gap between the upper and lower end caps, held at each end by screws. These are most probably 'cosmetic' in nature, just to keep up appearances. With enough of the proper sealant that gap should be water tight. The mother ship can confirm that. :)
Thanks Larry,
To bring the 3M 5200 into perspective here is a quick YouTube from the folks at West Marine and 3M.
https://youtu.be/mQremN3g51E
They mention other products in the 5200 family as it were, but the 5200 has received a lot of praise here on the forum.
Of course sometimes a good thing can be too good...https://youtu.be/dgJGTvx0gIE
Kent
I LOVE YOUTUBE! THANK YOU!
"2 narrow strips? "
Kathy
Since my daughter (Lazy Bones 2) just brought my LD back home yesterday, this morning I went out and measured the "narrow strips". They are 6" long by 1" wide and wrap around the corner, covering the gap between the upper and lower end caps, held at each end by screws. These are most probably 'cosmetic' in nature, just to keep up appearances. With enough of the proper sealant that gap should be water tight. The mother ship can confirm that. :)
Larry, that section just started to separate. I was always suspicious of the sealant being there.
I can understand a spot here and there on my rig but all of sudden all caps started to split from rig. UGH!
Kathy,
At first I was uncertain about Larry’s description of the “narrow strips”, but after Steve (Lazy Bones) described them I believe they are the “boundary” between the two 1/2’s of the end cap (and possibly other locations-I’d have to look).
Here is a picture of our RB from the rear. You can see the “narrow strip” between the top and bottom 1/2’s of the end cap. You can also see the narrow strip midway along the edges of the rear window between the two halves of the aluminum sheet on the back of the rig.
Don’t get too discouraged by the situation you are in. Your diligence has done you well and with a little effort you should have no trouble making it right.
Kent
Hi Kathy,
"OH NO! Really! 2 narrow strips? SIGH"
Regarding those supposedly missing narrow strips. I am fairly certain your rig is not missing them. To my knowledge, Lazy Daze did not start covering that overlap joint with a plastic strip until sometime after 2003. Every Lazy Daze I have seen prior to 2004 did not have a trim piece over that joint.
That joint is usually unsightly because of the expansion and contraction of that occurs back there. My 2003 is the same as your rig with regard to that overlap joint. I have thought about covering it with something attached to the upper section just so I wouldn't see the gap open and close.
I would also recommend another sealant that I think is easier to use than the 3M Marine grade sealants; Sashko's Big Stretch Sealant. One of the early LD posters, Don McG was a proponent of Big Stretch and so am I.
Good luck with your LD!
Steve K
Kathy,
At first I was uncertain about Larry’s description of the “narrow strips”, but after Steve (Lazy Bones) described them I believe they are the “boundary” between the two 1/2’s of the end cap (and possibly other locations-I’d have to look).
Here is a picture of our RB from the rear. You can see the “narrow strip” between the top and bottom 1/2’s of the end cap. You can also see the narrow strip midway along the edges of the rear window between the two halves of the aluminum sheet on the back of the rig.
Don’t get too discouraged by the situation you are in. Your diligence has done you well and with a little effort you should have no trouble making it right.
Kent
THANK YOU KENT for picture. I do have a strip that goes across the back window on the right. No Strip to the left of window or edges. I just hope there is no wood rot under all these Caps. I'll try not to get discouraged considering I am not the only one in this boat!
I did notice above drivers door it looks like a white sealant and screws had no white paint SO, it has been unscrewed for a reason. OR screwed in. Also 2 screws have stress cracking started.
Regarding those supposedly missing narrow strips. I am fairly certain your rig is not missing them. To my knowledge, Lazy Daze did not start covering that overlap joint with a plastic strip until sometime after 2003. Every Lazy Daze I have seen prior to 2004 did not have a trim piece over that joint.
That joint is usually unsightly because of the expansion and contraction of that occurs back there. My 2003 is the same as your rig with regard to that overlap joint. I have thought about covering it with something attached to the upper section just so I wouldn't see the gap open and close.
I would also recommend another sealant that I think is easier to use than the 3M Marine grade sealants; Sashko's Big Stretch Sealant. One of the early LD posters, Don McG was a proponent of Big Stretch and so am I.
AWESOME! That is good to know! I think BIG STRETCH might be the way to go too!
Much appreciated Steve
Kathy
"Every Lazy Daze I have seen prior to 2004 did not have a trim piece over that joint."
That figures... my coach was constructed during the summer of 2004 and delivered to me that October. Apparently LD observed a need to cover that gap, cosmetic or not! :-X
I like the covers I wonder if they sell them.
AWESOME! That is good to know! I think BIG STRETCH might be the way to go too!
Your rig isn't too bad and has the normal problems that any 18 year old LD, stored outdoors, would have when no maintenance hows been done to the windows frames or end caps ever. A few days of DIY work should be enough to seal it up.
The cracks around the screws are the result of the caps flexing. The coach and chassis flex a lot on rough roads, with the end caps taking the worse punishment. That's why the caps loosen and even completely pop off.
In past years, when I sealed a lot of LDs, I tried Big Stretch on my own rig and was a big disappointment, not lasting more than a three years before it went bad and needed replacement.
When looking at the specifications for Big Stretch and 3M 5200, the 5200 exceeds Big Stretch in all ways, especially the stretch or elongation specs.
Clear Big Stretch is a good choice for the colored sections if you are bothered by the thin, black or white line of 5200 sealant, the only colors 5200 is available in. You will need to replace it more often.
Big Stretch specs. Notice that it isn't rated for long term water exposure where any puddling will occur.
http://www.sashco.com/hi/pdfs/BigStretch_TechData.pdf
3M 5200 Fast Cure specs. Notice the elongation specs for Big Stretch and 5200. 3M 5200 is rated for under water use.
http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/323623O/adhesive-sealant-brochure.pdf
The two sealants are in totally different classes and the price of each indicates this.
The 3M products are marine-grade, Big Stretch isn't.
My view is that RVs are yachts that don't float well. For best results, use the same products on both.
Larry
Larry said, “My view is that RVs are yachts that don't float well”. How funny is that...not the comparison...just well put.
Kathy,
The projects you have before you may seem daunting and perhaps you can garner the assistance of someone handy with such things.
Not too many “Land Yaught” techs nearby? You can always practice on something non-LD. Getting used to applying the 5200 can increase your confidence tremendously. Small tubes of 5200 are available on Amazon for less than $10. Of course a quick run to LD for Vince’s advice is always handy. Like you, the Mothership is a short drive up the road for me. I’ve been up and back twice within the last couple of weeks.
Have fun with it. You are a Lazy Daze owner and this is what we do if we want to keep our Special Friends in good running order.
Kent
In past years, when I sealed a lot of LDs, I tried Big Stretch on my own rig and was a big disappointment, not lasting more than a three years before it went bad and needed replacement.
When looking at the specifications for Big Stretch and 3M 5200, the 5200 exceeds Big Stretch in all ways, especially the stretch or elongation specs.
Clear Big Stretch is a good choice for the colored sections if you are bothered by the thin, black or white line of 5200 sealant, the only colors 5200 is available in. You will need to replace it more often.
Larry, After a few videos and reading more up on this topic, I did go to West Marine (it was close to my home) and I bought the 5200 Sealant. I am concern after watching a video about the 5200 sealant being almost impossible to remove. The Big Stretch does have Pine Green for painted areas. But, I do not want to be doing this every year.
Your post have really informed me more on this topic and I plan on trying it out. I noticed around the windows the sealant has either come off or is coming off around the edges. I'll check the top out this week. I had no clue these parts were plastic. I thought they were metal. Again Thanks Larry!
Not too many “Land Yaught” techs nearby? You can always practice on something non-LD. Getting used to applying the 5200 can increase your confidence tremendously. Small tubes of 5200 are available on Amazon for less than $10. Of course a quick run to LD for Vince’s advice is always handy. Like you, the Mothership is a short drive up the road for me. I’ve been up and back twice within the last couple of weeks.
Have fun with it. You are a Lazy Daze owner and this is what we do if we want to keep our Special Friends in good running order.
Kent
Thanks Kent, YES, I think I will go see Vince first. Maybe he can inform me of the work he did to it in 2016 and WHY?
ALSO, I noticed your post for Amazon was RED TUBES and I looked at mine and its BLUE. So, I bought PERMANENT instead of REMOVABLE. I do not remember seeing RED TUBES at the MARINA. I really hate to use something that could damage the panels.
I am a good DIY PERSON KENT ;)
Thanks
Kathy
Kathy,
A closer look at the 5200 I pictured shows it to be “Permanent”. Having never used or had a use for it I am following Larry’s Lead on this 3M product.
Crossing my fingers, eyes and whatever necessary to avoid using it too. Good luck with that . Right?
Kent
Kathy, 3M 5200 Fast Cure is the product that you want; see the link below. The regular 5200 takes a long time to set/cure; the "Fast Cure" dries much more quickly and is easier to work.
3M Marine Adhesive/Sealant Fast Cure (White, 10 fl.oz): Polyurethane... (https://www.amazon.com/3M-Marine-Adhesive-Sealant-White/dp/B000XBFCUO/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?ie=UTF8&qid=1529275401&sr=8-1-spons&keywords=3M+5200+fast+cure&psc=1)
Note that the product comes in three sizes: the one-ounce tube is good for little "touch up" jobs, the 3 ounce tube for sealing two-three windows (depending on size), and the 10 ounce cartridge (used with a caulk gun) is used for bigger jobs, e.g., sealing end caps.
I suggest that you get a 3 oz. tube and do a test seal on an end cap that isn't too "gappy". Understand that you will have to clean and prepare the surfaces to be sealed very carefully; depending on the size of the gap, some use acetone to scrape/remove any old sealant and dirt/debris. Allow the cleaned area to dry completely, then carefully tape off the area to be sealed (blue tape) so that just the gap to be sealed is accessible; 5200 is messy, sticky stuff, so you will want to wear nitrile (or vinyl) gloves and have plenty of paper shop towels and acetone for clean-ups.
Squeeze generous amounts of 5200 into the gap, covering as much of the "unstuck" area as possible; if necessary, work the 5200 into the gap. I use wooden "craft sticks" to work the goop into a gap and to remove excess as it squeezes out when the end cap is pushed into place; craft sticks are available in different sizes at any craft store, e.g., Michael's. Depending on the size of the gap(s) and how "wavy" the edges of the caps are, you may need to figure out how to keep the edges in place until the 5200 can set up enough to hold.
Know that 5200 will harden in the tube after opening and be very difficult to squeeze out if it's not used within a few days. (That was my experience, anyway; others may have a different story!) That's one reason why I suggest not starting on a big sealing project with a cartridge of 5200 until you do a test run to see how long the job (in part and all together) may take you, and how long you need to spend to do each section.
If you feel that the end caps are in a condition that suggests that a re-seal be done by the factory, talk to Vince; you may be able to get a cancellation appointment. (Worth a shot, anyway.) At the least, I agree with the suggestion to have him look at the end caps and give an opinion.
Kathy, after reading over some 27 responses over the last day, aren't you glad you bought into the LazyDaze cult?
Here's a small aside on quality for a little relief break The Wonderous One Hoss Shay (http://www.theotherpages.org/poems/holmes01.html#7)
Hi For Kathy and others. The back end cap strip is the same aluminum strip material used along the entire sides of your rig covering the gap at floor level to the underneath skirts. I bought a little over a one foot piece from Todd, and it came with one hole. First I used blue painter tape, on the rig corner, to mark where I wanted the piece to go. Then cut the strip end off evenly. I filed and sanded the end. Then I wrapped it with painters tape so the vise jaws wouldn't mark it. I used a hand sledge hammer and a pine piece of 1 x 2 to pound on the aluminum piece until it was the right shape. Then mark and drill/countersink for flat head Phillips. Stainless #8 x 3/4". A little white touch up paint on the head and bare ends. I use a small tube of white porcelain repair 'goo' with a small paint brush. (Acetone to clean the brush). It is mostly cosmetic I thought, but a friends 2001 MB did have some wood rot near the street passenger side near the rear bumper, under the end cap and had a (what I would call a large) gap about 1/8". I don't know for sure but I suspect the gap was funneling water down under the cap.
A lot of older rigs have separating molding. Many have resorted to adding many stainless round head Phillips head screws that match the ones already there. I've seen some painted white, some left natural. Keep the spacing even, and the rows straight, and the repairs will look good.
The recent caravan club meetings are a good place to see these additional screw addition repairs in action. RonB
Those interested in end cap issues and fixes might want to do a search of this topic in the "Lazy Daze Technical" forum category; there have been many posts on the topic over many years of posts. Granted, one does have to cull out the irrelevant posts (the search feature on the board includes pretty much any post with the word "end" in it! :o ), but there's a lot of information to be gained by doing the research.
One of the basic problems with the end caps is that putting an ABS plastic molded cap over aluminum is not a good "match"; the two materials are not compatible. Over the years, LD has used a variety of adhesives and edge-match methods to improve adherence and to allow for the inevitable expansion and contraction (particularly of dissimilar materials); adhesives, VHB tapes, end cap seams that butted together near the curve of the cap, overlapped seams, and seams covered with a "band" (this started in 2004, I think).
With some exceptions (like Kent's 2015), "newer" rigs, e.g., 8-10 years old, seem to have fewer issues with end cap separations; any improvement in "sticking", likely due mostly to improved adhesives, is mitigated by the fact that ABS over aluminum is incompatible and the adhesion is prone to failure over time.
IMO, the best solution (other than formed aluminum end caps, which I doubt is ever going to happen) is to catch and repair end cap separations when they first become apparent; waiting until the gaps are larger and the end caps have begun to "deform" will result in a lot more work to correct the issues, and, often, to unsightly and ineffective repairs. Badly warped, gappy, and/or twisted end caps can be replaced, but replacement is costly and best left to the factory.
As Ron B. and others have said, using stainless steel screws as "insurance" after a re-seal is pretty common when an owner does his/her own repairs; just be sure to use the correct size screws (if I recall correctly, I used #8s in a 1.25" - or 1.50" - length; please advise if my recollection is wrong), space the screws, drill pilot holes - I use a carbide bit and drilled through blue tape to prevent cracking - and avoid over tightening the screws.
A personal opinion; I would avoid buying a used LD with significant end cap separations; not only can "gappies" be difficult to repair, but the fact that an owner has allowed the end caps to part company with the body is a red flag (to me, anyway) that s/he may well have allowed other critical maintenance issues to slide.
As ever, YMMV.
Joan said, “IMO, the best solution (other than formed aluminum end caps, which I doubt is ever going to happen)...”.
While at the Mothership this past week, I did ask Todd as to whether or not Aluminum End Caps would solve the breakage issue and if he felt LD would ever consider a redesign using aluminum end caps.
He did say that he’d love to use aluminum end caps but that the cost of a new coach would increase by several thousands of dollars.
After my repair was completed and I realized that the ABS plastic was used in many more areas than just the rear of the coach, I could see exactly why they have resisted the temptation (if there ever was one) to switch to aluminum.
With all the solid build quality of the Lazy Daze included in the equation, the end cap issues some of us experience seems, to me, to be a minor irritation.
Kent
Update: I drove out to the Mothership today. Glad I did. I set up appt for Jan 2019 to have End Caps done. I was reassured not to worry to much. I appreciate all inputs.
Thanks Again
Kathy