Thought I would stop by the forum here to introduce myself and say hi )
Looking forward to the abundant info, support, and generally upbeat RVers!
Made the drive to Montclair from San Diego to check out a 27 MB. They had that and a 27 RB. Lucky for me I called ahead to see what they had on the showroom floor, as the 27 MB is my choice. Also lucky for me I ran into Steve. Apparently, he's the original owners son and knows literally everything there is to know about RVs, particularly LDs.
Put my name in for a 2018, although it could wind up a 2019. The price for a 2018 went up by 2k from the 2017s shown on their site. But I see why...holy cow! Had never seen the inside of one and it was love at first sight. Changes to the 2018 from the 2017 is a stainless steel sink, new wooden flooring (unbelievably cool looking, btw), and new countertop surfaces.
Steve went out of his way to answer all my questions, calm my fears, and set straight any misinformation I've gathered. The biggest being boondocking in a LD. According to Steve, most people are far too hung up on the need for additional solar. He says "nonsense, get the extra panel and you're gold." The other being the need for a LP only catalytic heater. I followed him into a 2018 27 MB. The door was wide open. The furnace was running quietly and it was very warm inside! Btw, it was cold in So Cal today! I was wearing long pants and a jacket. It was hardly making any noise at all. He says, the electrical draw from it is small. Basically, the whole RV is designed to run on minimum electric. All LED lights inside and out except for the inside fridge light.
And let's not forget up front! He showed me the cockpit of one that had the upgraded captains chairs...Yes, please. The wood trim dash looked fantastic.
I spent quite a while with Steve. You can tell he takes pride in his product and rightfully so.
Well, that's my story. New to the RV scene, retired and ready to go! Was told they are a year out so the wait begins!
Cheers,
Graydon
Welcome to the cult
Yes, the wait is long for a new LD but it's worth it.
The long wait is why many look for a good used model.
We waited over nine months, that was 15 years ago and our LD is still going strong .
Larry
Graydon
Here's another Welcome to the LD community!
That irritating 'waiting period' drives everyone nuts. I placed the order for my 2004 in February and did not take delivery until October but my finger nails did grow back and I'm still a happy camper. 8)
Welcome, Graydon! Congrats and keep us in the loop as the work progresses on your new baby!
Graydon,
I actually took good advantage of our 14 month wait for our ‘15 RB. It gave me plenty of time to read and learn. On top of that I was able to become familiar with the great people here on LDO.
There isn’t a day that goes by that I can free myself from checking in on the forum countless times throuout the day. If I’m going to have an addiction, let it be LDO and all things Lazy Daze.
You’ve made it to the high water mark in RV living. Welcome to the family.
Kent
I welcome you, also, Graydon! I folow several other, non-RV forums, and this is hands-down one of the best. It is immensely resourceful, well-managed, and has lots of good folks popping in and out. In fact, I have belonged to the forum much longer than I have owned an LD!
And we actually picked up our 27 RB on January 31. During the walk-thru, Todd mentioned to us that ours was the second-to-last of the 2017 chassis to go out their door. If your visit was before that date, that may have been our blue/gray RB that you saw in the showroom. We laid out our deposit in late May of 2017 and were told at the time that our rig should be ready in late November or early December. So, just a few weeks late, considering the whole place was shut down for two weeks over the holidays. We had initially wanted a 2018 chassis, but when we were told we could get the '17 nearly 1 year faster, we jumped. Others here might know better than me, but I'm thinking that the relatively fast delivery time for our rig might have been because we only wanted four options -- the upgrade mirrors, rear cam, extra solar panel, and battery cut-off.
So, we have been bouncing around in the new rig since we took delivery, mostly in the tri-state region around SoCal, SoNev, and N/W AZ. We are really enjoying it, and absolutely nothing has gone wrong, broken, or otherwise given us reason to return to LD for repairs. We have only spotted five other LDs since setting out; one passed us N/b on H-395 around Lone Pine, Three were dry-camped just outside of Lake Havasu, and one was parked and unattended at a Love's near AZ-95 and I-40.
Anyway, hope to see you on the road someday, too!
A word about solar panels: for some reason the factory has traditionally downplayed them. Many of us are boondocking with 400-600 watts of solar panels. My advice: carefully consider your power needs. If you only take short trips and you don't do much more than use the lights and play the stereo or watch a little TV, you may be fine with the 200 watts that Steve recommended. If you take longer trips, if you travel in the winter months, and/or if you're a heavy computer user or TV watcher, you'll probably want more. And the way that Lazy Daze mounts solar panels--unless they have changed it--makes it needlessly difficult to add more.
So unless you're pretty certain that 200 watts are all you'll ever need, I'd suggest skipping that option. Instead, find a good installer such as AM Solar and have them put on a more robust system than the LD factory is willing to provide. You will never hear an RVer say, "Gee, I wish I had fewer solar panels."
Just my two cents' worth.
I agree completely with Andy's comments; one person's power needs and wants may vary widely from the next person's. Some people have no solar, some have a mega-watt roof full (and the battery size and capacities to store the juice produced), and some have an in-between system.
Building a solar system appropriate to each person's requirements, definitely including locating the panels and with state-of-the-art components, wiring, and technology, is not necessarily one of the LD factory's strong points, IMO. Ideally, if I ordered a new LD and it were possible to get it without any solar components, that would be my choice; its naked body would head to AM or Quality RV Solar in Fremont, CA, for a custom, well-designed, planned, and matched system.
YMMV, as always.
"The other being the need for a LP only catalytic heater. The furnace was running quietly and it was very warm inside! It was hardly making any noise at all. [Steve] says, the electrical draw from it is small."
The electrical draw is about three and a half amps. On a cold night, with the furnace running half the time, that's 15 amp-hours out of your batteries' roughly 110 amp-hours usable capacity. That isn't terrible, but a Wave 3 or Wave 6 propane heater (or my favorite, a Dickinson P12000) uses no electricity. The catalytic heater won't put out as much warmth as the furnace, of course. It definitely won't heat your whole coach. But in moderately cold conditions, once you take the chill off with a short run of the furnace, the cat heater can keep one room comfortable, using no electricity and a fraction of the propane that the furnace uses.
Now, maybe you won't be boondocking in cold weather often enough for this to matter. I boondock roughly 360 days a year, so I have a very different viewpoint than Steve. As with solar panels, this is something that very much depends on your camping style. Do you have experience with other RVs, or is this your first? In what kinds of places, times, and seasons do you picture yourself camping in the Lazy Daze? Tell us more about your intended uses, and we can give you better answers.
Just took a quick look at the site for Quality RV Solar - UFF_- DA !!! They are booked up until September of this year!!! Almost as long as it takes to get a new Lazy Daze !!
Virtual hugs,
Judie
I also agree with Andy re the catalytic heaters. We have owned many and various RVs over the years, and we always have preferred the cats to the forced air heating. Of course, much more quiet, but also uses less propane. We always carry an extra tank with us just to run the cat. When it gets low, we go in someplace and trade it out for another full tank. We spend a total of about 3 to 4 weeks per year in climes where the cat heat is needed. It is not the type of heat the warms up the inside immediately, but we always fire it up early in the afternoon and let it run on low until the next morning. We prefer it. I have not yet rigged a cat up in my new rig, but I will.
By its nature, an the furnace is the least efficient appliance in an RV. Not only does it suck propane, but, as Andy points out, it has a sizable amp draw. A ballpark estimate of heat 'distribution' with an RV propane furnace is about 40% inside and 60% outside. If one camps in sort-of-cold, cold, or "OMG, why am I doing this?" weather and doesn't have a hookup or want to run the generator to power a small space heater, one might want to strongly consider a catalytic heater, as Andy suggested.
YMMV, as always.
Yes, Dan at Quality RV Solar is busy and booked well in advance, doing only a very limited number ( two at most, if I recall) of system designs and installations per month; he has a full time engineer job and young kids. From every report I've heard (and from the fact that he is an 'authorized installer' for AM Solar), Dan does professional, 'custom' designs and installations using proven, top quality components and with meticulous workmanship.
Welcome aboard Graydon. You said the wait begins, does that mean you put down your deposit?
We got the last 2013 31' frame. Put our deposit in October 13 with an guestimated mid Feb 14 date. Picked it up on the 87th day of February 2018 (April 28). Now looking to upgrade the single solar panel.
Joel
I find the most interesting things about Graydon’s account of his visit to the Factory are (1) Steve gave him the tour and (2) he got Steve to speak more than 3 words in a row! 😁 — Jon
Welcome Graydon! My wife Kristy and I are waiting for our 2018 27' mid bath, grey stripes/darker cabinets, hopefully in July. I'm looking forward to your posts so we can learn together. Lots of knowledge and support here, just ask!
When I asked about deleting the one solar panel and related equipment from LD it comes with standard for credit, I was told no credit, so since we are not sure of our camping style long term, I ordered the extra panel to enjoy and learn about our LD for a few years. We will probably go on many shorter trips the first few years anyway. Message me if you want to discuss extras we ordered and why. Our last additional extra was to add 2 more rear seat belts, for a total of 8 passengers, so we can use it as a daytime beach camper with my teenagers and their friends
A word about solar panels: for some reason the factory has traditionally downplayed them. Many of us are boondocking with 400-600 watts of solar panels. My advice: carefully consider your power needs. If you only take short trips and you don't do much more than use the lights and play the stereo or watch a little TV, you may be fine with the 200 watts that Steve recommended. If you take longer trips, if you travel in the winter months, and/or if you're a heavy computer user or TV watcher, you'll probably want more. And the way that Lazy Daze mounts solar panels--unless they have changed it--makes it needlessly difficult to add more.
So unless you're pretty certain that 200 watts are all you'll ever need, I'd suggest skipping that option. Instead, find a good installer such as AM Solar and have them put on a more robust system than the LD factory is willing to provide. You will never hear an RVer say, "Gee, I wish I had fewer solar panels."
Just my two cents' worth.
Yes! Point well taken. I get so much conflicting advice. What has made the most sense to me is the need for a proper controller in close proximity to the batteries with heavy gauge wiring. Not sure where the controller is on an LD, but I know a lot of RV manufacturers place them over the fridge. That is exactly the worst placement you can have.
When I was at the factory in Montclair (can I call it the "mothership" yet or am I still too new), Steve pointed to the voltage readout on the wall that was reading 14.2V. He asked me what the max was. He then said "14.2V!" I puzzled over what he said. Him knowing EVERYTHING about an LD and me knowing NOTHING (well, almost nothing). It was my understanding that actually 14.4V was the number and that the 14.2 number it was showing was the small loss from the controller to the actual battery terminals or the controller was just set to 14.2. Being just parked in the factory and plugged in. Also, I can't imagine that is never going to change. I was now more confused and changed the subject, heh.
I want to go boondocking! Off the grid! Got some buddies in Helena, MT that keep bugging me to come up there fly fishing, haha.
I'm thinking skipping the extra panel option and then revisiting solar power later...Thx again!
Graydon
Welcome Graydon! My wife Kristy and I are waiting for our 2018 27' mid bath, grey stripes/darker cabinets, hopefully in July. I'm looking forward to your posts so we can learn together. Lots of knowledge and support here, just ask!
When I asked about deleting the one solar panel and related equipment from LD it comes with standard for credit, I was told no credit, so since we are not sure of our camping style long term, I ordered the extra panel to enjoy and learn about our LD for a few years. We will probably go on many shorter trips the first few years anyway. Message me if you want to discuss extras we ordered and why. Our last additional extra was to add 2 more rear seat belts, for a total of 8 passengers, so we can use it as a daytime beach camper with my teenagers and their friends
Hey there!
Wow, never thought about the extra seat belts. I'll have to bring that up next time I speak with them. Thx!
Options I'm considering:
Battery disconnect switch...possible safety?
Back up camera...Don't want to stress over whether or not my towed vehicle is still there! lol..hope it works in "drive."
In-dash Nav, Bluetooth, CD, etc.....seems pricey though at 1200 bucks. Might just do something aftermarket?
Tan "leather" highback cab seats....whoa, very nice! I imagine I'm going to be driving the thing...right? At my age, you really start to appreciate soft rides from car seats and..ahem, toilet seats! That's another post though.
Graydon
First -- welcome to the cult.
Second -- always keep in mind we all travel and camp differently. And the large majority of folks on this forum are long time users of LD's. The upside is that's a lot of wisdom - the downside is the Mothership is always changing things so what applies to one year or years may not apply to your year LD.
Third - Sadly I have a garage full, yes full, of stuff I knew I needed. Now its gathers dust - pointing out all times I love the idea of something then reality brings me back to earth with a lighter wallet.
Fourth - We camp about 100 or so days a year. It is cheaper to use the LD furnace then to buy a cat heater or those little pint sized bottles of propane. If we are ever in a place that needed large amounts of heat then we screwed up our planning.
Solar - most all the components from about 2013 forward are from AM Solar. Older LD's had/have many issues that are now solved. (yes I know about the noisy converter - the fan runs all the time)
If IMHO there is any weak point its the awning. I have installed a whole new system that seems to work better for me.
Yes, most of Colddog's comments are spot on, except the cat heater thing. We run our heater off of a 4 gallon Blue Rhino tank that we carry when in the Sierra during late fall and early spring. One tank will keep us very comfortable for a week stay at 5K feet and above. We only use pint bottles to run our BBQ. As much as we BBQ, those tend to last a long time, as well. Our 20+ year old Olympian cat is the large size. Its BTU output on low setting is greater than that of the smallest model set to high! Typically, we fire it up about an hour before sunset, let it run on high or medium an hour or so, then dial back to low for the rest of the night. After breakfast, depending on the weather or if we are moving out, we turn it off until the afternoon. Now we have tried the smaller space heater cats, like the Heater Buddy, which do run off those small screw-on cans. Never really worked for us. We enjoy high elevation, late season boondocking, and the cat is the only way to go, IMHO, for such conditions.
Graydon,
Colddog said, “The upside is that's a lot of wisdom - the downside is the Mothership is always changing things so what applies to one year or years may not apply to your year LD.”
It is not my experience that the Mothership is “always” changing things. It is more that the opposite would be true. LD is very slow to change and are very consistent with their coaches from year to year. Yes, they make changes from time to time but slowly and only after great consideration and often driven by customer feedback. Thor they are not.
I find that the addition of the second solar panel has worked well for us. I wanted our RB ready for the road and that is exactly what we got. Zero defects? Only one LED light switch failure nothing else. We have had nearly 2 1/2 years of faultless travel.
Catalytic heat? Two years after we drove our ‘15 away from the factory, I had our LD plumbed for our Wave 6 catalytic heater. I love it. Sips propane and quiet as a mouse.
The factory furnace is great at heating the 27’ coach but when it cycles on throughout the night it can be disruptive to REM states. Also, the furnace heat is not that easy to regulate consistently. I use both heat sources actually, but the furnace is off most often and waiting in the wings for its cue.
The furnace is great for knocking the chill off the rig and the Wave to maintain a comfortable heat. A nice feature I like about the cat heat is that it is attatched by a six foot hose from the LD’s propane supply. I can place it at different places as the need arises. It has a quick disconnect near the bulkhead just near the oven. When not in use, it stores away out of sight. No one pound cans to store and rumble around.
Choices are great. We all get what we want when we can. Your choices are your own. Others, theirs. We are very pleased with what Lazy Daze has built for us. I’ve taken my time to add on other features over time as my RV wisdom has increased.
Have fun...
Kent
When running the cat heater over night, how do you sent up your ventilation in a mid bath? Frank
While running the Wave 6, I generally open two of the three roof vents about 1/2 way in our RB.
We have the snap on vent covers on the inside and I usually unsnap one corner and loosen the grip of the Velcro on either side of the snap. No need to turn on the vent fan. This brings in enough fresh air while allowing the cat to maintain a balanced warmth.
This does present a problem during a rainy night so perhaps sliding a window open could be an option. I haven’t quite figured that part out. 🤔
Kent
Frank -- I own a brand new Rear Bath, but have not yet set up a cat heater. I am not very familiar with the MB models. That said, ventilating any space -- RV, home, work shop, etc. -- when using a catalytic heater is essential. It appears that you are aware of that already, so I won't preach. We just sold our Winnebago two months ago. When using the cat in that RV, I ran the hose from the heater to the tank via the back window. I used foam pipe insulation to attach to the screen on that window to prevent bugs getting inside. I always keep the tank out of the interior of the motor home, usually setting it just under the rear bumper. I always keep an adjacent window open for the proper vent air supply. Since we only need a heater a few weeks each year, I have never mounted the heater to a permanent location. I built a stand for it and bring it out only when we will need it. I wish I had some pix of that, but I do not. I am planning something similar for my RB, but have not yet formalized a plan. My bro-in-law sets his up with a snap connection hard piped through the floor. I might do something like that, but not really decided. Will probably run hose in through shower window, but still have not decided where to stand the heater when in use. I will keep you guys posted. It's a work in progress, so to speak.
Ray,
We also have the RB, as you know. You may recall that I had Myers RV Center in Torrance, Ca plumb a propane quick disconnect into the LD propane line for about $300.
Here is a pic of where we installed the connection. Hope this helps.
Kent
Thanks, Kent. That is very similar to what my in-law did, except he owns a large Jayco. Same idea. I realize that is a pretty slick way to do it -- and, compared with running a hose out a shower window, relatively stumble free -- but such a set up will not allow me to disconnect the tank and drive into town and switch out for a full one. Not a deal-breaker, really. Just requires more planning ahead. I do like the simplicity of your supply source. Like I said, a work in progress.
Thank you, also, for the install resoutce. This next October I am going to help my in-law recoat and paint his "rubber" roof. :'( I might tap him for pay-back and ask him to set my rig up like yours. He is a very handy guy, and can fix, build, jerry-rig just about anything. I'm no stranger to tools and shop work, either, but after his messy, sticky roofing job, maybe I'll just pull into his large shop and pop a beer while I watch him do the plumbing work!
Ray,
Glad to be of service. A cautionary note here about propane plumbing. While I’m good at many DIY projects, risking blowing up my new LD was something I did not care to do.
As many of the lead tech-heads on LDO warn, this is a job for the professionals. That certainly is not me when it comes to tapping into the LD propane lines. $300, to me, is chump change when it comes to such upgrades. Choose your tech wisely.
Just sayin’
Kent
ABSOLUTELY! A truth applicable to many aspects of RV ownership.
Thanks, Kent. That is very similar to what my in-law did, except he owns a large Jayco. Same idea. I realize that is a pretty slick way to do it -- and, compared with running a hose out a shower window, relatively stumble free -- but such a set up will not allow me to disconnect the tank and drive into town and switch out for a full one.
Install an Extend-A-Stay and you will be able to connect a refillable, portable propane cylinder to the LD's propane system.
Many who live in cold climates use them to connect to large propane tanks, for winter use. It also allows closing the main propane tank's valve, keeping the tank from draining, instead, receiving propane only from the portable tank
Extend-a-Stay | Flickr (https://www.flickr.com/photos/lwade/sets/72157602104740981/)
Amazon.com: extend a stay propane (https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=extend+a+stay+propane).
The kits come with hose for connecting to the portable tank
We camp year round and love our LD's two cat heaters, especially the bath heater, which is used year round, to warm the bathroom for our evening showers, primarily when it's cold out.
Cat heater in lounge | Flickr (https://www.flickr.com/photos/lwade/sets/72157602095131438/)
Bath catalytic heater | Flickr (https://www.flickr.com/photos/lwade/sets/72157602104740401/)
Larry
Welcome, Graydon. You have already received a lot of good input. I have nothing new to add, just a few "boosts" for some of the comments.
Others said your electrical needs depend on how you use the systems. All my lights are LED. But, I use a DVR almost constantly, I use my TV for 4 or more hours per day, I use a CPAP machine all night, and I use my computer 4 to 6 hours a day. I have 6 large AGM batteries fed by 5 solar panels. I am a fulltimer, spending most of the time from late May to October boondocking. My 5 solar panels are not quite able to keep up with my demand, and I must either cut back my usage or run my generator for an hour in the morning to obtain a full battery charge by late afternoon.
As to 14.2 volts being enough, the issue is not voltage, it is amps and battery state. I can get about 30 amps at 14.4 volts going into my system on a clear summer day. My panels can pull in something on the order of 20 volts, which my controller adjusts to about 14.4 volts for charging. If you see 14.2 volts coming off your panels, that means... nothing. Your controller will take any incoming voltage and adjust it to 14.4 volts. If I had a single solar panel, and if my 6 batteries were at 80% of charge, I would see 14.4 volts, but only about 5 amps, and the batteries would gain very little charge through the day. You need to know how many watt-hours you will consume in a 24 hour period, and you need to know where you will be during different seasons. With that information, your solar needs and your battery needs can be calculated.
Yes, it can be confusing, but as others have said, Steve is very sharp on average needs and coach design, but is not well equipped to size an electrical system for anyone with unusual needs.
Ken F in NM
Some may find the information at links on this AM Solar website page very helpful:
RV Solar Education (https://amsolar.com/diy-rv-solar-instructions/)
Larry. -- yes, I put Extend-Stay on several of my last RVs, and have purchased one for this new LD. We are on the road now, but I will get it on the tank soon after we return.
We actually have the small Olympian at home. We use it in our Chalet hard-sided fold-up trailer (or, more accurately, these days our sons and grandsons use it when they take the trailer fishing and snowboarding, etc.) and it keeps that small rig very toasty, even at the high ground those guys like to frequent. Likewise, our large Olympian has kept us very comfortable in the 25' Winnie we just sold, and we anticipate that we will get the same comfy use out of it in this new LD. Our RB model is very similar in design as the Winnie in that it is open and straight thru rear to front. I am confident that the single cat will do just fine in that design.
"Our RB model is very similar in design as the Winnie in that it is open and straight thru rear to front. I am confident that the single cat will do just fine in that design."
We've found that an Olympian on a quick connect behind the passenger seat in our RB, and one mounted on the wall in the bathroom, are ALMOST sufficient to keep the whole rig warm. But us ol' folk may get colder than those who are younger and more active.
Virtual hugs,
Judie
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Hey, Kid! Who you callin' old?
That's so awesome!
- Dave
"Hey, Kid! Who you callin' old?"
I's jes' callin' myself old. But "old" only in calendar passage and joint deterioration! ;->
Virtual hugs,
Judie < -- can still get up into my aerie over the cab - AND back down!
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