The solar panels don't seem to be working. The read-out displays battery voltage 13 plus change with shore power connected and 12.5 when shore power is disconnected. Charging amps and charging amps other show 0's whether shore power is connected or not. The in-line fuse at the fuse panel is ok. Any ideas what to check now?
Well... Traveler1291925. A name would be appreciated, along with year and floor plan of the coach. It helps us troubleshoot if we know more. Are your solar controller and panels from the factory, or installed after market. Look on the roof to see if anything obvious is wrong, loose wires, broken panel glass etc. It doesn't hurt to hand clean the panels. There could be another fuse in line with the panels before it gets to the solar controller. Being plugged in shouldn't affect anything. The increase in voltage you see is from the converter. RonB
Does your charge controller shut down if the batteries are overtemp? What charge controller do you have installed?
Chip
The solar panels don't seem to be working. The read-out displays battery voltage 13 plus change with shore power connected and 12.5 when shore power is disconnected. Charging amps and charging amps other show 0's whether shore power is connected or not. The in-line fuse at the fuse panel is ok. Any ideas what to check now?
If this is a LD with factory panels, the build may includes fuses in the junction box (es) on the roof. If this is the case, and the fuses are blown, you can safely bypass them. They are not needed. For more help, if this is a LD, year, floorplan, model of charge controller, etc.
Steve
KEY INFORMATION: The house batteries were replaced. When the tech installed them he installed them backwards. (This was at an authorized Trojan dealer.) The 30 amp DC fuse(s) in the fuse/breaker panel blew. The 15 amp solar panel fuse did not. He corrected his mistake and everything worked again, except the solar panel system. The display reads out the battery voltage, reads "0" on the other two settings (charging amps, and charging amps-other). The display goes dark with the 15 amp fuse out and lights up again when the fuse is put back in.
We have a 26.5 Mid-Bath Lazy Daze. The (2) solar panels and controller were installed at the factory for the original buyers. The documentation shows the 2 panels are by BP Solar and the controller is HELIOTROPE PV (Eugene, OR).
I double-checked all the DC fuses under the fuse/breaker cover in the coach, all good. I called the mothership was told there are more fuses mounted on the panel themselves but you have to unbolt the panels from the roof to get to them. I don't see a junction box anywhere on the roof, not sure what it would look like. If I have to check the fuses on the panel that means breaking the seal at the mounting bolts and resealing when done. Big bummer.
The Trojan dealer seems somewhat willing to work with us on this, but they're not an RV specific shop, and the guy he wants us to have take a look at it "has experience with boats." So we are trying to explore our options.
Thanks for your input,
-Lance
Pull the controller panel, using a voltmeter, and check for voltage on the terminals for the solar panel's + and - power input.
Do this while the panels are in sunlight.
A voltage reading between 19 and 21 volts DC is expected if the panels are producing power and their hidden fuses are OK.
If no voltage is seen, you will have to remove the panels, their fuses are mounted under the glass.
If the above checks out, odds are good that the controller is defective.
What solar controller does your LD have?
Larry
Okay, we'll try that. Thanks!
RV-30S Charge Controller manufactured by Heliotrope PV, Eugene, OR.
Barb
Just a thought (although this won't help with diagnosis)--the RV-30S controller is an old "switch-mode" model that throws away power that could be going to your batteries. After you figure out what's wrong with your current setup, you might want to replace the RV-30S with a newer "MPPT" type controller, which will squeeze more juice out of your panels.
I took the solar control panel down to measured voltages on the terminals at the back of the controller board. There were 12.8 dc volts at the "Bat. +/-" terminals and zero dc volts at the "PV +/-" terminals. I'm guessing the "Bat." terminals go out to the house batteries and the PV terminals are fed by the solar panels. With zero volts showing on the PV terminals the fuse(s) must be blown on the panels on the roof. Sound right? Thanks for the tip to read the voltages at the control panel.
-Lance (and Barb)
I'm not understanding how the factory mounts the panels to the roof. Most all installations have mounting "feet" that are attached usually by bolts to the panels, then the feet are either glued or screwed into the roof (sometimes both).
Can you remove the bolts where the "feet" attach to the panels? If they are stainless steel they may be galled and have to be broken to be removed.
With zero volts showing on the PV terminals the fuse(s) must be blown on the panels on the roof. Sound right?
Not necessarily. Disconnect the PV leads at the controller to make the measurement at the leads. If you now get a good reading (17+ Volts in full sun) then the controller is probably bad.
Steve
"I'm not understanding how the factory mounts the panels to the roof."
Others can probably explain this better, but from memory: Lazy Daze mounted the panels (at least in my 2003 midbath) very close to the roof, and in such a way that the fasteners that connect the feet to the panel are inaccessible. Thus, as Lance said, you actually have to pry the feet off the roof to get at the underside of the panel, where its junction box is located. Stupid, but that's the way they did it.
Does anyone know what kind of fuses I will need once I gain access to the blown fuses on the BP Solar panels? Thanks, Lance.
(PS, Steve. Thanks for the tip to disconnect the PV leads. I did so and voltage still reads zero on the multi-meter.)
Does anyone know what kind of fuses I will need once I gain access to the blown fuses on the BP Solar panels? Thanks, Lance.
Don't know if your's is the same but our friend had this happen on her 07. In this blog post, you will see the photo of the fuse which is an inline 10 amp.
Life's Little Adventures: Search results for blown fuse (https://littleadventures-jg.blogspot.com/search?q=blown+fuse)
Here is the thread I posted on the forum.
Solar Panel Help (http://www.lazydazeowners.com/index.php?topic=26054.msg140355#msg140355)
Jim
I should add also that at the time our friend had the problem I spoke with AM Solar since it was their panel and controller. They said that it doesn't need the fuse and they didn't know why LD installed one.
Jim
Jim, Thanks for the two links above. Both very helpful. It looks like they use standard fuses. And it sounds like there is only one junction box for the two panels? and therefore only one fuse for the both--two panel, one fuse? If that is the case, there would be no need to take up both panels? only the one with the j-box?
Jim, Thanks for the two links above. Both very helpful. It looks like they use standard fuses. And it sounds like there is only one junction box for the two panels? and therefore only one fuse for the both--two panel, one fuse? If that is the case, there would be no need to take up both panels? only the one with the j-box?
The box is on the underside of each panel attached to the panel not the roof.
Jim
OKAY, the digging, gouging, pulling, scrapping, pinching, twisting has begun, trying to get the feet loose from the sealant without puncturing roof skin. Would a heat gun help (scared to use one that close to the panels)? -Lance
OKAY, the digging, gouging, pulling, scrapping, pinching, twisting has begun, trying to get the feet loose from the sealant without puncturing roof skin. Would a heat gun help (scared to use one that close to the panels)? -Lance
I never had a heat gun but I would think it would soften it. However, I used a 5 in 1 tool. It's stiff enough and the pointed end help expose the screw heads. Mike Sylvester who used to do a lot of work on LD's recommended it to me to get the caulk off.
Red Devil 4251 Painter's 6-In-1-Tool - Putty Knives - Amazon.com (https://www.amazon.com/Red-Devil-4251-Painters-6-In-1-Tool/dp/B00002N6IT/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1507088255&sr=8-4&keywords=5+in+1+tool)
Jim
Before prying and heat, I would try...
A) A thin, flexible knife, like one of the cheap plastic break-off/extendable blade ones. With sustained, mild upward pressure on the foot, start on the side and slice in shallow cuts, increasing in depth as you progress. Have some acetone at the ready to coat the blade so goo doesn't stick to it. (Or try goo-gone, wd40, olive oil -- whatever works to prevent the adhesive from sticking to knife.)
B) Or, try a loop of piano/music wire, steel guitar string, with the end held in rings or vice-grips so you can pull/saw the sealant. Might try whatever goo works best from above, too.
C) Another approach would be one of these vibratory multi-tools, with either a toothed or toothless blade. Again with the goo so the adhesive/caulk/whatever doesn't stick to the blade so much.
All would be much safer for the roof material and the solar cell than prying straight up with a tool.
Chip
"Another approach would be one of these vibratory multi-tools, with either a toothed or toothless blade."
An oscillating/vibratory tool such as a MultiMaster is by far the easiest way to do this, although of course you have to buy the tool. But I strongly recommend against using a toothed blade. It's way too easy to tear a hole in your aluminum roof with one! Get the most flexible straight blade you can find, such as this one (https://www.amazon.com/Fein-63903165210-Oscillating-Flexible-Scraper/dp/B019A33CUW/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1507135182&sr=8-1&keywords=fein+flexible+blade). And keep your angle as low as you can, to avoid digging into the roof.
"Another approach would be one of these vibratory multi-tools, with either a toothed or toothless blade."
An oscillating/vibratory tool such as a MultiMaster is by far the easiest way to do this.... But I strongly recommend against using a toothed blade. Get the most flexible straight blade you can find,,,,,And keep your angle as low as you can, to avoid digging into the roof.
Andy's advice is right on, a vibratory tool , with a shape whistle blade IS the easiest way to cut sealant off the roof.
With a couple shape blades and the tool, you can strip all the sealant off a roof in a couple hours, it cuts like a hot knife through butter.
It's the tool to use if stripping the roof completely for a reseal, Mothership-style.
Roof seam reseal | Flickr (https://www.flickr.com/photos/lwade/albums/72157624693172984)
Make sure, when reinstalling the panel's feet, to bury them in polyurethane sealant.
A vibratory tool is a very handy tool, one that has all sorts of uses in maintaining and enhancing your LD. It is a very accurate saw that can fit into places no other cutting tool can, including flush cuts. Blades are available in many sizes and for wood, plastic, metal and porcelain .
Larry
What recommendations do you have regarding sealants for resealing around the feet of the panels when I replace them? HOME DEPOT has a white LOCTITE Polyurethane PL Pro Line Window Door and Siding caulk in stock but doesn't have tubes on the shelves with the S40 on the labeling. I'm not sure if I'm good to go with plain PL or if I need to track down PL S40? LOCTITE doesn't list S40 on their website so maybe it's an old designation? (even though HOME DEPOT does show S40 on their website)?
````````````
Just an update, last week the Mothership recommended PROLINE S40 Polyurethane sealant, but not being able to find it, we called Loctite and they said the "S40" is the old naming system. Now that product is called PL Pro Line Window Door and Siding polyurethane sealant.
You might check out Dicor sealants and/or 3M 5200 Fast Cure. You will likely receive additional suggestions! ;)
Good news, the fuse up top was blown; bad news, the controller still shows zero charging current:
The solar panels are now sending voltage (17 to 19V) to the PV +/- terminals on the back of the controller on the wall in the coach. The controller display show the battery level at 12.5 V with nothing running and drops to 11.8 with lights and fans on. The charging current display reads zero in all cases. I only know of fuses in the junction box on the back of the solar panel on the roof and the in-line fuse in the coach's fuse panel. Fuses are all good. None blow with everything hooked back up.
What's left besides the controller being bad? Am I missing something? Is there another fuse hiding somewhere?
-Lance
Good news, the fuse up top was blown; bad news, the controller still shows zero charging current:
What's left besides the controller being bad? Am I missing something? Is there another fuse hiding somewhere?
There should be no other fuses.
I would assume, at this point, the controller is also burned out.
Your LD has a very old controller, the Heliotrope controller isn't produced or wanted anymore since it isn't a PWM controller.
Here is inexpensive controller that I have installed before.
Go Power GPM-30 (http://www.rvsolarelectric.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=32_35&product_id=94)
For better installations, I like the Sky Blue 3000i
Amazon.com: 12V/30A 400W MPPT Solar Boost 3000i Solar Charge Controller... (https://www.amazon.com/Solar-Boost-Charge-Controller-SB3000i/dp/B0179V9JQI/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1507238152&sr=8-1&keywords=blue+sky+3000s)
For sealing the panel's feet, almost any polyurethane will be fine, along with Dicor roof sealant.
Larry
I have the Blue Sky 3000i and like it very much; it's full-featured (enough for my uses, anyway!), reliable, offers clear readouts, and can be programmed.
Blue Sky Energy Inc. | Solar Boost 3000i (http://www.blueskyenergyinc.com/products/details/solar-boost-3000i)
An additional suggestion is to consider installing a multi-stage converter, if you don't already have one. See the Progressive Dynamics website.
"bad news, the controller still shows zero charging current"
I'd call that a blessing in disguise. ;-) Go with the Blue Sky controller Larry recommended. You'll get more power without having to install more panels.
Hi Lance. As far as the Trojan dealer that did this...Putting batteries in backwards even for a few milliseconds can destroy lots of electronics. They should be on the hook for a new controller. Someone used to working on boats, should be able to work on a Lazy Daze. The controller reads the voltage across a shunt resistor to measure current flow. Possibly just the shunt is bad. A resistor at about .01 ohms, usually in the grounded side of the panels power leads. The panels nominal voltage is 12vdc each, so they are hooked in parallel. I would suspect that both panels, each have a fuse and that both would be blown. Be unplugged, no generator, and slightly discharged batteries with some lights on, and then you could try hooking the PV (photovoltaic) leads directly to the batteries (+ to +), (ground to ground) and use the RV-30S to read the voltage on the batteries and see if the voltage starts going up (batteries charging. (yes to sunlight) If you have a meter that can read current in the 10 amp range you could put that in series to to see if you get a reasonable charging current. If you do, then a new controller should fix the problem. Repairing it would be a waste of time, maybe you could get a used but good one somewhere but newer controllers are far superior now. Trojan should pay for this. RonB
What's left besides the controller being bad? Am I missing something? Is there another fuse hiding somewhere?
-Lance
If you have an ammeter capable of 10A or more in your DVM, switch and connect to that mode, and with sun on the panels, connect the leads from the panels across the ammeter. This will short the panels, and give you their current 'short-circuit current' output. If this is done near noon, with no shadowing and shade, it will be the maximum current you can expect from the panels this time of year. Shorting the panels indefinitely will not damage them, and is why fusing is considered irrelevant. Also, as they are diodes by nature, reverse voltage will rarely affect them either.
If you read no current, the panels have been damaged, even if they have a voltage output measurement. If the reading is good, replace the charge controller.
Steve
For all the folks who think that fuses are needed between the panel(s) and the controller, remember that fuses are used to protect the wiring from more current than it can safely handle. Since a 100 W solar panel will normally produce no more than 6 Amps, a fuse would normally only be needed if the cable to the controller was not capable of safely carrying 6 amps. This would be 18 or 20 AWG wire. Even 2 100 watt panels (12 Amps max) it would be 14 AWG. Since almost no one wires their panels with such small gauge wire (12 or 10 AWG seems to be pretty standard) fuses do little good, but since every connection has losses, can do harm, as we try our best to limit losses between the panel and controller. On the other hand, a fuse IS required between the controller and the battery and should be located as close as possible to the battery as current from the battery would certainly be larger than any wire size we would be using there. So, limit losses, forget about those panel fuses, I have no idea why LD ever put them in there.
Rich...Birch Bay, WA....former 2000 MB now small Bullet Crossfire trailer
Thanks for the tip to read short circuit current to confirm that the panels are still good. They are! Full 5 amps in the sun and easily lit a 12 V light bulb. I was ready for good news. I plan to reuse the same (BP 85 watt) panels but replace the damaged Heliotrope with a new Blue Sky Solar Boost 3000i.
I was told the the exiting over-temp sensor is not compatible with the Solar Boost 3000i, which raises wiring questions.
Do you have to run all new wire? If so, I will be quite challenged finding a route for the new wire. Can you splice new connectors and sensors to the existing wiring?
Thanks, Lance (all this helpful info is great!)
I was told the the exiting over-temp sensor is not compatible with the Solar Boost 3000i, which raises wiring questions.
Do you have to run all new wire? If so, I will be quite challenged finding a route for the new wire. Can you splice new connectors and sensors to the existing wiring?
I believe the temperature sensors are thermistors, the wire is just a connection, so yes, the you should be able to be spliced the new sensor into the old wiring. after removing the old sensor.
I would solder the splices.
Larry
PROGRESS UPDATE: I've taken up the old panels, replaced the fuse, and reinstalled the panels...with adaptations. I retained the use of a fuse on the roof but made it much more accessible. And I adapted the panel mounts. Now you can access the fuse by removing 6 screws on a junction box from AMSOLAR called a "combiner box. If ever the panels need to be taken up again they can be removed by unbolting 6 bolts, without disturbing the feet where they attach to the roof. No more cutting through sealant. The bad news is today I removed the Heliotrope controller from the wall to install the new BLUE SKY SB 3000i MPPT controller and it doesn't fit the original cutout in the wall.
Rationale for keeping the fuse: I agree a fuse isn't necessary to protect the panels from a normal short circuit but, since it did blow in my case, it apparently serves a protective purpose in the catastrophic event that someone every installs the house batteries backwards again. I my case, when Batteries Exchange installed new Trojan T-105's backwards, several fuses protected the RV equipment. The main DC 30amp fuse in the fuse panel blew protecting the converter system, the fuse between the house batteries and the truck engine system blew protecting the Ford stuff under the hood, and of course, the solar panel fuse blew. The only piece of equipment the didn't make it was the solar charging controller. The last hurdle, how to make the Blue Sky 3000i fit.
PHOTOS: On Google Drive - SOLAR PANEL PROJECT (https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B4aUfmn4tfkrUk1QRlE0RlBWdXc?usp=sharing)
The bad news is today I removed the Heliotrope controller from the wall to install the new BLUE SKY SB 3000i MPPT controller and it doesn't fit the original cutout in the wall.
The last hurdle, how to make the Blue Sky 3000i fit.
Check this photo to see how I solved this problem, using the old controller's face plate.
Sky Blue 3000i | Top of original opening needs to be raised … | Flickr (https://www.flickr.com/photos/lwade/23730570496/in/album-72157661711994929/)
Sky Blue 3000i solar controller | Flickr (https://www.flickr.com/photos/lwade/albums/72157661711994929)
Blue Sky makes a cover plate for your application, to cover the area of wood that needs to be removed.
Blue Sky Solar Boost 3000i (https://amsolar.com/rv-charge-controllers/cctlr-bs-mpp-030a)
Larry
The 3000i in my 2003 TK (no space behind the controller as it backs on to the refrigerator) was installed before the face plate was available, so AM Solar crafted a mitered-corner 'box' from 1/4" X 1 1/2" birch. The box is subtle, blends in well, and doesn't look at all like a kludge to compensate for not having a face plate. ;)
If this is a LD with factory panels, the build may includes fuses in the junction box (es) on the roof. If this is the case, and the fuses are blown, you can safely bypass them. They are not needed.
Steve
Hey guys, I've read this a few places, and agree based on the self limiting aspect of a solar panel, but I had a question about the controller with regard to this. Not sure if all say this, but the 3000i manual says to connect the PV leads only after the battery leads, and goes as far as to say if disconnecting the battery, to disconnect the panel leads prior to doing so... Does anyone actually do this, or know what blue sky is concerned about? I figured at the least a fuse might be good as a switch, but I don't really see a convenient place to put one in the midbath...
Just a grab from the manual regarding the above post...
Yes, I disconnect the PV's before disconnecting the batteries.
I have a 10- way marine fuse block next to the charge controller and fuses on the roof. The 10-way fuse block is wired to provide a main fuse and 4 auxiliary loads including the charge controller and 5 fuse switches for PV connections to the charge controller. Then I pull the PV fuses before pulling the charge controller fuse and/or the main buss fuses.
Thanks. Mainly I've been trying to think of a good place in the midbath for a switch upstream of the controller, and how bad I really need one. Being that the leads go right from the roof the the interior of the cabinet, it doesn't seem like there is a good place for an accessible switch. I've just been using towels on the panels for now when I have to temp disconnect the batteries...
Mc nugget,
Would an in line 30 amp ATI fuse holder in the upper Cabinet do the trick?
UPDATE -- ALL DONE: Several of you helped us work through the solar panel problem we had. We had to take a long break in the middle of the project for family needs, and just got back to it. Now everything is wrapped up and done. The panels work great, and everything checks out a-okay. We love the new controller (Blue Sky Solar Boost 3000i). AM Solar in Oregon is a great resource if you're having any solar issues. They sent me everything I needed to successfully fix the problem and improve the set-up.
1. There is now an access point to get to the solar panel fuse without having to remove the panels. AM Solar has a great solution for making the fuse accessible--a junction box that they call a "combiner box" that holds the panel wiring and the fuse. Lift its lid and everything you need is right there.
2. The new Blue Sky controller is mounted in the same hole that the original controller was in. I had to peel back the Naugahyde to widen the cutout and re-glue it before screwing in the new controller but it looks fine, like it came that way.
3. AM SOLAR had all the right sealants for replacing the panels on the roof so the feet are sealed well. (I didn't have to disturb the factory penetration allowing the wiring from the panels down into the coach, only had to worry about the panel feet.)
4. The new over-temp heat sensor is an improvement. The old one was mounted on the back wall of the battery compartment. The new one is mounted directly on the battery.
5. The new controller looks like it will keep the batteries charged fine when the RV is in storage as long as the sun can get to the panels.
The plus side of having to go through all this is that now we have a much better solar panel setup. It all started when we put new batteries in because we were getting the Lazy Daze ready to sell, and as these things often go, it was more involved than we expected.
Thanks to all you experts out there that provided such helpful information and support to get Barb and I through this.
-Lance and Barb
Late, I know. But here are some photos of the finished project: Solar Project Final Photos (https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1ZniPEAIVybHCYXDeJg8RJ1rT_rxYFlSU?usp=share_link)
Late, I know. But here are some photos of the finished project: Solar Project Final Photos (https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1ZniPEAIVybHCYXDeJg8RJ1rT_rxYFlSU?usp=share_link)
I like the mounting method using what i assume are hanger screws. Wish I had known about this a few decades ago.
Being able to quickly remove and replace the panels is a nice feature.
Zinc Plated Steel Hanger Bolts 5/16"-18 Machine Thread With Lag Screw... (https://www.ebay.com/itm/202755473289?_trkparms=amclksrc%3DITM%26aid%3D1110006%26algo%3DHOMESPLICE.SIM%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D252417%26meid%3D79112c842231467c82e1a7734b5695eb%26pid%3D101195%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D12%26sd%3D173994957544%26itm%3D202755473289%26pmt%3D1%26noa%3D0%26pg%3D2047675%26algv%3DSimplAMLv11WebTrimmedV3MskuWithLambda85KnnRecallV1V2V4VMEV3AndVisRankerAndBertRecallAndQueryV3Recall%26brand%3DAlbanyCountyFasteners.com&_trksid=p2047675.c101195.m1851&amdata=cksum%3A20275547328979112c842231467c82e1a7734b5695eb%7Cenc%3AAQAIAAABUCJKIAINIktJVHsEvTlwHEBYsqyW%252Bf6nYT8kmkB86JTr4s7bF01lYyBFpgw6yLCClNGR%252BuLwVJ3b1S7Mz9lVI6uIl2GvWmtgoJrOrlaMcRFN%252B5HIUKdFQ5AhlvrnnnBC2O%252BjA1BDK1Xs26ycoGxCFILw%252Fufjylf1WoHSBA8J1fpuu3fcHMv2o80ieZdl9ENN5doGB5%252FvOLDF1OpPKDg8IblcwLt%252B%252BRXB67MQl2dJvUcsHI6SSlfzysvAGRoE3KFQ80kgCg%252F%252BKCpf%252BY6aISoGU4R0y57UeGJJ2yAES7bA%252FQHC0sw65eax1JmTdJ6ZXBDXHoFFbM%252FQMMBYd9nXw4nD8l7%252FscZX7FdbgOYs9GVcLTpO%252FyAFJ1BWzjhxzG4znw5Tm0gqz4s37IAxA2H%252FK7ViKn5v6eW41vQnDXVHFtaa9hMfw1w5F%252F1c9g5dZT12SQXdlw%253D%253D%7Campid%3APL_CLK%7Cclp%3A2047675)
Larry