After 22 years of LD ownership, we had our first tire failure.
It was the most common tire to blow, the 5-1/2 year old passenger side, inner rear tire, the tire that is most exposed to the exhaust 's heat. I had hope to finish the summer's travels before replacing the tires, they still had plenty of tread.
The tire was full inflated and monitored by a TPMS. I had checked the monitor just ten minutes before and seen 78-psi, so low pressure was not the problem.
Since we have extended valve stems, rotating the tires is a pain.
Many owners, self included, stopped rotating the rear tires years ago. The rear tires usually wear evenly, always timing out before wearing out. This practice keeps the same tire continuously exposed to the heat, radiating off the exhaust pipe.
There is a good chance that the tire was weakened by many years of heat exposure,
Rear tire rotation will now be on the maintenance schedule, sharing the heat exposure with the other inner tire. This should make the guys at America's Tire happy.
When the tire blew, we heard a bang and then flap, flap, flap, as the tread was coming off. The flapping beat the bottom the LD, tearing up some of the sheet metal that covers the bottom of the floor, along with electric step's wiring.
Luckily the damage wasn't to serious and has been repair to as good a new condition.
Blown rear tire damage | Flickr (https://www.flickr.com/photos/lwade/albums/72157685899755355)
Larry
A reminder that even the most diligent preventive maintenance program doesn't prevent all failures. Think I will add tire rotation to my list as well.
Larry
I didn't see mention of the brand of tire! Would they have been Michelin? ::)
I didn't see mention of the brand of tire! Would they have been Michelin? ::)
Steve
You know the answer to that, Michelin LTXs, not the hard riding steel belted tires you and the Tireman like.
Happy is wasn't a steel belted tire, when one throws its tread and is spinning around, the steel belts are much more destructive than fiber belts and can do thousand of dollars worth damage, while the tread is removing itself.
I feel I caused of the blow out by never rotating the rear tires, leaving the one tire to endure the exhaust heat.
I was lucky, it took $25 worth of materials and a few hours to fix. Of course, if it had gone to an RV shop, it would probably have been over a $1000 and would take three weeks or more to fix.
While I was at it, sheet metal heat shields were made for the exhaust pipe, where it comes near the rear inside tire.
This should decrease the amount of heat the tire experiences.
I have added a couple photos of the simple heat shields to the Blown Tire file.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/organize/?start_tab=one_set72157685899755355
Larry
After 22 years of LD ownership, we had our first tire failure. It was the most common tire to blow, the 5-1/2 year old passenger side, inner rear tire, the tire that is most exposed to the exhaust 's heat. I had hope to finish the summer's travels before replacing the tires, they still had plenty of tread.
Well all I can say is DANG or something similar. And your lousy trouble probably saved us from a similar fate. We're about 2 years and 10,000 miles on our tires. So before we go on the next long trip, I'm getting the rear tires rotated to share the stress on the rear tires. I hate to say thank you Larry because well ... okay ... thank you.
I've been waiting for this post as I saw the pics in flicker weeks ago.
Steve
You know the answer to that, Michelin LTXs, not the hard riding steel belted tires you and the Tireman like.
Happy is wasn't a steel belted tire, when one throws its tread and is spinning around, the steel belts are much more destructive than fiber belts and can do thousand of dollars worth damage, while the tread is removing itself.
According to Michelin, the LTX has three steel belts. My understanding is every Michelin has steel belts.
This should make the guys at America's Tire happy.
Blown rear tire damage | Flickr (https://www.flickr.com/photos/lwade/albums/72157685899755355)
Larry
Got a set of Michelins recently at a Raben, rotations are included. Probably not a shop in your area.
Haven't needed to take them up on the offer yet either, but I am prepared for the "not applicable on RVs" excuse
Larry I'm glad to know that you and your wife are ok. 🚐 Keep on rolling 😊
Larry,
Sorry to hear about your tire problem but admire your ability to make those repairs.
Given that some of our recent experiences, such as transmission rebuilding, have mirrored yours I just ordered new tires from Costco to replace our eight year old Michelins and am hoping to get them installed before hitting the road in late August. I too had hoped to get through the travel season with the ones I have now, and probably could, but the savings in doing so would actually be quite small in the long run, and not worth the risk of what happened to you. Our rear tires are getting close to the wear bars anyway, so we've gotten our money's worth.
I too had stopped tire rotations because of the need to dismount tires during that procedure given our Alcoa rims and because tire wear was even and balance not a problem. I think I will take your suggestion and just do a simplified rotation of the back tires side to side in the future.
As an aside, I have a friend who has been pushing me to get a TPMS system but I've been resisting. It's interesting that yours did not give you a warning of this.
I'm glad this wasn't worse for you.
Terry
2003 26.5' RB
Gardnerville, NV
I think I will take your suggestion and just do a simplified rotation of the back tires side to side in the future.
As an aside, I have a friend who has been pushing me to get a TPMS system but I'veyou can been resisting. It's interesting that yours did not give you a warning of this.
Terry
The TPMS worked as should have, alarming just after the explosion. There was nothing out of normal for the TPMS to detect.
The tire was at full pressure when the tread came off. I had checked a few minutes before and all the tires were at full pressure.
The TPMS monitor scrolls though and shows the pressure of each wheel, continuously.
The failure was a mechanical failure, not one caused by the lack of air.
Through the years, I have read about many inside, passenger side dual failures.
The exposure to the exhaust heat seems to be what's common to each of them.
The factory exhaust heat shield's protect the gas tank, not the tires. I made a pair of simple, sheet metal heat shields, aimed to protect the tire.
I will check both inner tire's sidewall temperatures, on the next trip, to see if one sidewall temperature is higher than the other.
Larry
Are photos of the heat shields available?
Are photos of the heat shields available?
See the last two photos in the set.
Blown rear tire damage | Flickr (https://www.flickr.com/photos/lwade/sets/72157685899755355/with/36095017146/)
I didn't expect them to fit on the first try, so I didn't take any photos before the test fitting.
The shields are secured to the exhaust pipe with hose clamps.
Larry
Does your TPMS show tire temps? Curious if it showed a higher running temp or higher temp before it blew.
Larry, it sounds like the TPMS that you're using DOESN'T show a current temperature reading, at the same time as the air pressure..? The system I have shows both, per tire. The reason I'm using the system I have...having experienced an inner pass. side blow out [ and the attending damage caused by the unraveling tread banging against the undercarriage] it was a main concern along with air pressure.
I don't know if this system would have alerted me to the danger in time to avoid the blow out, but I hope so in the future. I also stopped using Michelins..two blow outs, one on each side dualie.
Tried six new BF Goodrich and they all had failures of one type or another. Now using TOYOS and four years in, have had no issues--love the tires, a tad rougher ride, but a nicer 'handle'. So far, so good.
Really glad all ended safely!! It's pretty traumatizing, having that *&%#%$& tire explode!!
At 01:15 PM 7/26/2017, you wrote:
On: Wed Jul 26, 2017 Terry Burnes Wrote: I think I will take your suggestion and just do a simplified rotation of the back tires side to side in the future.
As an aside, I have a friend who has been pushing me to get a TPMS system but I'veyou can been resisting. It's interesting that yours did not give you a warning of this.
Terry
The TPMS worked as should have, alarming just after the explosion. There was nothing out of normal for the TPMS to detect.
The tire was at full pressure when the tread came off. I had checked a few minutes before and all the tires were at full pressure.
The TPMS monitor scrolls though and shows the pressure of each wheel, continuously.
The failure was a mechanical failure, not one caused by the lack of air.
Through the years, I have read about many inside, passenger side dual failures.
The exposure to the exhaust heat seems to be what's common to each of them.
The factory exhaust heat shield's protect the gas tank, not the tires. I made a pair of simple, sheet metal heat shields, aimed to protect the tire.
I will check both inner tire's sidewall temperatures, on the next trip, to see if one sidewall temperature is higher than the other.
Larry
Larry
Collection: Lazy Daze
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Gini Free and Junah, canine xtrodinaire "CHERRYOTTE" our litte red home on wheels "Growing old is mandatory. Growing wise is optional."
Does your TPMS show tire temps? Curious if it showed a higher running temp or higher temp before it blew.
Our TPMS does not monitor temperature directly will still indicate an overheated tire by noticing the increase tire pressure.
Heating the air, trapped inside the tire, causes the pressure to rise.
Just minutes before, the four rear tires were within 2-psi, of each other, nothing out of the ordinary .
The TPMS alarms when the tire pressure drops below a set point or when the pressure rises too high.
Both the low and high-pressure alarms are adjustable.
A tire does not need to be under inflated or overheated to fail. Ours failed when the tread detached itself from the core of the tire.
I had the manager at America's Tire inspect the blown tire and he saw no indications of heat failure or underinflation.
We have been very lucky over the last 22 years. Driving over 160,000 miles, in two LDs, we have used fives sets of Michelins and the OEM BFGs (the ones that many replaced immediately after picking up their new rig), and only suffered one failed tire and one slow leak.
Considering how many of those miles were on substandard roads or dirt roads, that's not bad.
Even though the tires had 42,000 miles and were 5-1/2 years old, America's Tire replaced it under warranty.
The cost repair the damage was minimal at $25, plus the time involved.
We were lucky and will now rotate the rear tires, side to side, regularly.
Two additional exhaust heat shields have been installed as a preventative to help reduce the long term heat exposure to the rear, passenger-side inside tire.
Larry
Reminding us that tires have memories. All wear, use and abuse (even running over curbs) is cumulative. They are amazing little air balloons that suspend tons of weight while rotating about 840 times every mile over hot, cold, rough roads. There is no such thing as an easy trip for tires.
That's why they get so very tired.
That's why they get so very tired.
And when they get old, they are retired.
Larry
A year ago June, we had the same blow out, same tire, same BRAND, same pressure and temperature conditions. When ours went, it spalled the entire tread and left the inner carcass still inflated! I never got a blowout warning on my TPMS. The only warning I got was a couple of loud thumps when the separated tread departed for the median.
Our defective tire was six months on the good side of the Michelin recall. I got a free replacement under my road hazard warranty but ever since then, and even more so as I hear these stories, my confidence in the Michelin brand is evaporating.
Don't know where to go after I don't trust Michelin any more.
Dan
Don't know where to go after I don't trust Michelin any more.
Every brand and type of tire has failures.
You hear about Michelins more because so many folks run them.
Once again, we see a passenger-side, inside rear tire blowing.
This seems to be more of a location problem than a tire problem.
Guess I will remove the DIY heat shields and take some photos so the rest of you can make and install your own.
It's the only defense I can think of, beside rotation, that will reduce the exposure to the high exhaust heat.
Larry
...You hear about Michelins more because so many folks run them.
Larry
Excellent point, Larry.
Dan
Some interesting information here:
Tire Tread Separations, Defects and Blowouts (http://www.tirefailures.com/coopertire/tirefailures.html)
Note the White Paper link on that page too.
This seems to be designed for attorneys involved in tire failure litigation, and may be somewhat dated, but nonetheless seems instructive. On the other hand I'm not sure what to do with it.
I've gotten good service from Michelin tires of all forms, and they are a company that has gone to great lengths to cultivate a reputation for quality, and their tires are expensive, so they seem like a good bet to have avoided the shortcuts that can lead to problems. But who really knows? It's obvious from reading the above that the tire industry is far from transparent.
Terry
2003 26.5'RB
Gardnerville, NV
We joked that the better the tire the bigger the boom when it blew.
We had tread separation on a Michelin LTX but the tread didn't leave therefore no damage. TPMS is useless. You would think there would be a high temperature warning. Guess not.
We continue to use Michelin but upgraded to XPS Rib. Bigger boom next time!
Anyone running super singles in the back instead of duals? They're all the rage in semi-land.
Chip
Haven't seen a single tire dually in years. Was told they were like roller skates on ice.
The super single tire truck seems to be the norm for Europe, and some States here have tried to mandate it, but there is a lot of resistance out there. Mostly concern for liability and the cost of fleet conversion. The operating economics work out with the miles trucking companies run, but would not even be close on an RV. Weight savings could be used to increase CCC? Of course that rare blowout becomes much more exciting.
Weight savings (and possibly ride) were the main focus of my question. Conversion to aluminum wheels, and half as many, would be a savings. Seeing a lot on the road under semis lately.
Chip
Guess I will remove the DIY heat shields and take some photos so the rest of you can make and install your own.
It's the only defense I can think of, beside rotation, that will reduce the exposure to the high exhaust heat.
Larry
Thanks for letting us know this can happen, Larry. I would very much appreciate seeing your DIY heat shields so I can make some. Thanks again.
Jim Langley
Spooked by the thread so Ruby is at the tire shop since her tires were 3609.
I will sleep better and the $1,670 for seven tires was better than I expected for the Michelin LTX's.
Did you get these?
https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Michelin&tireModel=Defender+LTX+M%2FS&partnum=275R6DTLX&vehicleSearch=false&fromCompare1=yes
Every brand and type of tire has failures.
You hear about Michelins more because so many folks run them.
Once again, we see a passenger-side, inside rear tire blowing.
This seems to be more of a location problem than a tire problem.
Guess I will remove the DIY heat shields and take some photos so the rest of you can make and install your own.
It's the only defense I can think of, beside rotation, that will reduce the exposure to the high exhaust heat.
Larry
"Guess I will remove the DIY heat shields and take some photos so the rest of you can make and install your own".Didn't you post photos of the shields already?Chris
I think I'm headed in a different direction for heat shielding. Rather than fabricate something, I'm going to buy this product. It may take two of them to cover the distance where the exhaust is closest to the inner dual. That's a vendor typo on the measurements. The actual dimension of one pad is 6 inches by 3 feet.
DEI 010452: Titanium Pipe Shield Kit 3" Length x 6" Width | JEGS (http://www.jegs.com/i/DEI/186/010452/10002/-1)
Here is the product description:
"The DEI Titanium Pipe Shields are designed to provide the ultimate protection against radiant heat produced by your exhaust system. The unique combination of heat dissipating Titanium LR Technology and riveted pipe stand-offs provide up to 1350° F of heat protection for your transmission, brake lines, fuel hoses, electrical wiring, fuel tank, floor pan, bumpers and anything else that your exhaust system is close to! This added protection far surpasses other manufacturer's mylar covered, glass fiber heat shields that fail, under the heat produced by highly modified vehicles or turbo applications, typically around 900° F! This product is available in three lengths and is perfect for any automotive, marine or power sports application where maximum exhaust heat protection is required!"
Dan
If you do get the "titanium shield", please take a temperature reading of the exhaust pipe (hot and in the same place) before and after installing the shield; I (and, I suspect, so would others) would be very interested to know a real life number. Thank you.
I think I'm headed in a different direction for heat shielding. Rather than fabricate something, I'm going to buy this product. It may take two of them to cover the distance where the exhaust is closest to the inner dual. That's a vendor typo on the measurements. The actual dimension of one pad is 6 inches by 3 feet.
DEI 010452: Titanium Pipe Shield Kit 3" Length x 6" Width | JEGS (http://www.jegs.com/i/DEI/186/010452/10002/-1)
Here is the product description:
"The DEI Titanium Pipe Shields are designed to provide the ultimate protection against radiant heat produced by your exhaust system. The unique combination of heat dissipating Titanium LR Technology and riveted pipe stand-offs provide up to 1350° F of heat protection for your transmission, brake lines, fuel hoses, electrical wiring, fuel tank, floor pan, bumpers and anything else that your exhaust system is close to! This added protection far surpasses other manufacturer's mylar covered, glass fiber heat shields that fail, under the heat produced by highly modified vehicles or turbo applications, typically around 900° F! This product is available in three lengths and is perfect for any automotive, marine or power sports application where maximum exhaust heat protection is required!"
Dan
There's a typo in the ad.
Titanium Pipe Shield Kit 3" Length x 6" Width Should be 3', not 3".Chris
There's a typo in the ad. Titanium Pipe Shield Kit 3" Length x 6" Width Should be 3', not 3".
Chris
You didn't read my post. I said that in the second line. ;)
If you do get the "titanium shield", please take a temperature reading of the exhaust pipe (hot and in the same place) before and after installing the shield; I (and, I suspect, so would others) would be very interested to know a real life number. Thank you.
I'm not interested in measured exhaust pipe temperatures. The figure I want (and will use to gauge success or failure) is the temperature of my inboard dual, which I already know is running warmer than it should due to its close proximity to the tail pipe. I'll report tire temperatures. I have my TPMS figures and an infrared gun that I will use.
I never thought the temps I was seeing at 115F, or so, would be cause for failure. All the tire information I've read suggests that tire temps above 150F are cause for concern and action.
Dan
"The figure I want (and will use to gauge success or failure) is the temperature of my inboard dual, which I already know is running warmer than it should due to its close proximity to the tail pipe. I'll report tire temperatures. I have my TPMS figures and an infrared gun that I will use."
----
Whatever works on whichever surfaces for an accurate comparison of temperatures with and without the shield. Thanks.
You didn't read my post. I said that in the second line. ;)
Fast reading always gets me in trouble. :-[
Chris
Chris, I refer to it as Dyslazia. I'm a fellow "sufferer"
Sounds like a good possibility. I was also considering using the heat shield fabric that is used to wrap stove pipes in that are close to a wall...seems like an easy application for challenged people like me..short arms, round body, weaker shoulder and arm muscles to hold up under my rig with very little clearance.
At 07:55 AM 8/2/2017, you wrote:
I think I'm headed in a different direction for heat shielding. Rather than fabricate something, I'm going to buy this product. It may take two of them to cover the distance where the exhaust is closest to the inner dual. DEI 010452: Titanium Pipe Shield Kit 3" Length x 6" Width | JEGS (http://www.jegs.com/i/DEI/186/010452/10002/-1)
Here is the product description: "The DEI Titanium Pipe Shields are designed to provide the ultimate protection against radiant heat produced by your exhaust system. The unique combination of heat dissipating Titanium LR Technology and riveted pipe stand-offs provide up to 1350° F of heat protection for your transmission, brake lines, fuel hoses, electrical wiring, fuel tank, floor pan, bumpers and anything else that your exhaust system is close to! This added protection far surpasses other manufacturer's mylar covered, glass fiber heat shields that fail, under the heat produced by highly modified vehicles or turbo applications, typically around 900° F! This product is available in three lengths and is perfect for any automotive, marine or power sports application where maximum exhaust heat protection is required!" Dan 2007 IB-30 Posting
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One thing to watch for using wrap-around fabric heat shields.
They can hold moisture and rust out the covered pipe, this is why I prefer metal heat shields.
This can be a problem for an RV that sits for long periods, in a moist climate.
A metal shield needs to have an air gap, between the pipe and shield. If you look at the exhaust pipe, where it passes by the rear tire, you will see the Factory shields, aimed to protect the gas tank.
Both of the new shields have air gaps, aimed to block the infrared heat, radiating from the exhaust pipe, from hitting the tire.
The air gaps are hard to see in the photos.
When it cools off enough, I will either get better photos or removed the shields and photos them.
There isn't much to them, two small pieces of sheet metal and four hose clamps.
That's all you need.
Slowly cooking in my own juices
Larry
One thing to watch for using wrap-around fabric heat shields.
They can hold moisture and rust out the covered pipe, this is why I prefer metal heat shields.
This can be a problem for an RV that sits for long periods, in a moist climate.
Larry,
I agree that completely wrapping the exhaust pipe in a manner suggested by Gini is not a good idea. These shield pads from JEGS are flexible, use the same clamps and have metal stand-off studs to provide an air gap between the exhaust pipe and the shield pad.
I put a small-block Chevy in my '81 Jeep and had a bad time with heat from the exhaust cooking our feet because they were so close to the floor of the tub. I used these shields for that problem and was successful in diverting the exhaust heat away from the Jeep floor. I'm thinking that they are going to work well to mitigate the inside dual tire heating from the E450 exhaust. My only concern is whether they come with clamps big enough to cover the circumference of the E450 exhaust pipe. I may have to buy bigger clamps to install the shields.
I've been giving this some thought and maybe this has been expressed by others before. I'm wondering if the wheel skirts on the Lazy Daze are preventing adequate air circulation around the duals during travel. A commercial truck built on an E450 cutaway chassis would not likely have such a covering over the rear dual wheel wells. I'm also wondering if a measured air temperature of 115 to 120 on an inside rear dual is giving an accurate picture of the temperature of the tire tread, sidewall and carcass. We are looking at a tire being heated by thermal radiation from an exhaust pipe and from friction and thermal conduction from the pavement.
That said, I looked at your photos and your shields are just the bee's knees. (and less expensive!)
Dan
I've been giving this some thought and maybe this has been expressed by others before. I'm wondering if the wheel skirts on the Lazy Daze are preventing adequate air circulation around the duals during travel. A commercial truck built on an E450 cutaway chassis would not likely have such a covering over the rear dual wheel wells. I'm also wondering if a measured air temperature of 115 to 120 on an inside rear dual is giving an accurate picture of the temperature of the tire tread, sidewall and carcass. We are looking at a tire being heated by thermal radiation from an exhaust pipe and from friction and thermal conduction from the pavement.
The wheel cover might have a negative influence but since blows out are rare, it can't be much.
If it was, the driver's side, inside rear tire would also have a history of blowing out.
A temperature of 115-120 can be reached just sitting in the summer sun.
The pavement temperature can be much higher.
I would compared the temperature of both inside rear tires, once the tires are hot.
Measure both sides and the tread of each tire.
Do consider the influence of the sun too.
Using either wraps or shields, along with rear tire rotation, the probability of this happening again should be significantly reduced.
Larry
dsandsaz wrote: "My only concern is whether they come with clamps big enough to cover the circumference of the E450 exhaust pipe."
You can 'stretch' worm-drive hose clamps by daisy-chaining another of the same type. Just check that the slots are the same width, distance apart, and general shape and you'll be in good shape. Unscrew each all the way, then thread extension into existing and vice-versa. If you have a bunch in a drawer it can save you time. If you have to go buy them, probably better to buy new at the right size.
In following this thread, I've thought a larger sheet of galvanized steel mounted to the frame, with stabilizers, might do the job, too. Place it in the path of the radiant heat, making sure the 'footprint' is well-covered, but fastened to something else besides the actual heat generator. Bracing can ensure it doesn't rattle. Shaping and placement will be more challenging, though. Bonus points for a nice air scoop ducting cooling air across the shield, between the shield and exhaust.
Temp measurement is a prudent first step, however, to quantify what the real problem is, and gauge the effectiveness of the cure.
Chip
Did you get these?
https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Michelin&tireModel=Defender+LTX+M%2FS&partnum=275R6DTLX&vehicleSearch=false&fromCompare1=yes
Nope, got the M/S2. 😒. Oh well, they're date stamped March 2017 so the change to the new Defender tire must be happening right now.
The Defenders have been available for some time; they're the replacement for the Michelin LTX M+S.
Added a few more photos of the installed heat shields.
Blown rear tire damage | Flickr (https://www.flickr.com/photos/lwade/albums/72157685899755355)
Larry
The Defenders have been available for some time; they're the replacement for the Michelin LTX M+S.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4383/35565631503_963f329817_m.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/WbPaaa)
Our new tires are Defenders, we'll see if they measure up to their new name.
Larry
"Our new tires are Defenders, we'll see if they measure up to their new name."
----
With those fancy new heat shields, the p-side inside dual especially will have a great chance at long service! :D
The shields came by FedEx today. I bought two, but I may only need one. The dimensions are 3 feet long by 6 inches wide.
Two photos show the packaging and the other two show the shields with the clamps in their retainers, ready to install. Notice on the inside diameter, the studs that mount the clamp retainers are used as stand-offs from the exhaust pipe.
Next up, installation. I'll post some pictures. We are about to travel to Montana and back so I will have a good opportunity over the next few weeks to take some temperature data to post. I'll consider this a success if the inside dual runs at or very near the temperature of the outside dual.
Dan
"I'll consider this a success if the inside dual runs at or very near the temperature of the outside dual."
Unless you know if there is any temperature difference now, you will never know if the shields caused a lower temp or not.
Just got home the other day. Drove about 1 1/2 hours at 65 mph. Outside temp in the mid-70's.
Passenger side- sunny side
O/S dual at 109*
I/S dual at 107*
Drivers side (shady) ran about 10* less.
This is the air temp per my TPMS. How accurate is it? Don't have a clue. I have never tried , nor do I have a way, to verify the accuracy of the temperature feature, just of the pressure feature.
Not much temperature difference between inside and outside tires based on this one observation.
Just catching up on an interesting topic. Google provided the following info concerning tire temperature
Ambient temperatures, hot sun on one tire with another in the shade, altitude, tread depth, camber/caster/toe, spring rates and weight distribution all contribute to tire heat and subsequent pressures.
Plus the road surface. Black asphalt or grey concrete.
I suspect it would be near impossible to say with certainty which of these variables was a major contributor to any given tire blowout.
Under inflation and overloading a tire kept popping up as the major causes of excessive temperatures and blowouts.
Ed D.'s measurements showing sunny vs. shady side temps also are exhaust vs. non-exhaust side. It would be interesting to know if the sun or exhaust is the primary cause of the 10-degree swing side-to-side. An infrared thermometer is good for spot temp readings, which can be used for comparison purposes. Their 'absolute' accuracy is subject to some variables, but if you're consistent in taking the readings, measured differences in temp can be reliable.
Chip
" It would be interesting to know if the sun or exhaust is the primary cause of the 10-degree swing side-to-side."
Indeed it would. An experiment would require driving under the identical conditions both directions measuring the temperature at say, 15 minute intervals then compare the results. Anything else is simply a guess.
Just had that notorious inside pass. side loose air--not a blow out, but serious enough to replace the tire [ going on four years old, with a lot of time in scorching AZ half of each year]. Thank goodness for the TPMS w/temp monitoring.
My question is what temperature denotes "HIGH"...that tire, running on asphalt, outside Barstow, 4pm, and 112 outside, and on the sunny side of the rig, had gone up to 95 PSI, and hit 131!! Traveling at about 57 mph, so slowed down to 54, and aimed for the rest stop 20 miles away. There was no shoulder to speak of, no real safe place to pull off the traffic lane. I got as far over as I could, and by the time I limped in going about 5/10mph, it had lost all air.
FYI
all tires were running between 122 and 124, 90 plus PSI, and the outside pass. was 127 temp, and 94 PSI..it was HOT out there! Soooo, at what point is temp/PSI a danger point? This is the hottest, and highest, any of the six tires have ever run. I have the alarm set at 15 PSI higher than the rear 80, front 67, and high temp is set at 125.
Heck of a balancing act.
At 08:34 PM 8/4/2017, you wrote:
Just catching up on an interesting topic. Google provided the following info concerning tire temperature
Ambient temperatures, hot sun on one tire with another in the shade, altitude, tread depth, camber/caster/toe, spring rates and weight distribution all contribute to tire heat and subsequent pressures.
Plus the road surface. Black asphalt or grey concrete.
I suspect it would be near impossible to say with certainty which of these variables was a major contributor to any given tire blowout.
Under inflation and overloading a tire kept popping up as the major causes of excessive temperatures and blowouts.
Ed
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Driving with the sun on one side of the LD, for a extended period, the TPMS show the tires on the sunny side running two or three pounds higher than the the shaded side. I see the same effect just sitting in the driveway.
On a hot day, the the tire pressures can rise 10-psi or more. When checking the tire's temperature, with an infrared thermometer, 120-150 degrees is the normal range. 50 degrees above ambient is common.
The hotter the pavement, the hotter the tire.
Even with the TPMS, I check the tire temperature at stops, using an infrared thermometer.
Assuming the tire pressures are correct, become concerned when one tire is running much hotter than the others.
Also check the temperature of the brake rotors, to see if any are running hotter than the others
Larry
Perhaps nitrogen? Alleged improvement in tire life, (oxidation, steel belt 'rust') and less pressure impact due to heat.
Comparison of nitrogen versus air in your tires | TireBuyer.com (https://www.tirebuyer.com/education/nitrogen-vs-air)
Downsides: cost, availability, hard-to-measure benefits.
Chip
I suspect there is some heating of the inside dual attributable to the exhaust pipe particularly when the vehicle stops with a hot exhaust system. On the occasion, I read about a grass fire being caused by a hot muffler.
The question of course, is this heating significant enough to contribute to an increased risk of a blowout on that tire?
The E-450 chassis has been in production for a great many years. If a pattern of blowouts of the inside tire could be demonstrated, I suspect Ford would have issued a technical service bulletin and redesigned the exhaust system to eliminate this risk in order to avoid costly lawsuits. Remember the Fireboom tire suits?
There is no TSB and Ford has not changed the design. I suspect the increased risk, if any, is negligible.
If anyone can round up the needed proof, they could get rich suing Ford.
My unsupported opinion. 😉
Bought a 1989 22' MP in 2015.
I was aware of the long standing practice regarding tire replacement at 6 years. I checked the existing tires, they were 6 years old at the time I purchased the rig. They looked excellent on visual, no weather checking and very minimal wear.
So, I rationalized.
"A 22' is LIGHT. Dual load range E tires are overkill for this thing. 6 years is a 1 size fits all recommendation, I can get another few years without a second thought due to the lighter duty. I'll swap them at 8 years."
In 2016, at 65 mph, 7 year old Inside rear passenger tire delaminated and came apart. Beat the hell out of the wheelwell (made of plywood). Barely kept on the road. Inspection of the tire confirmed no puncture, and knowing their age, I religiously inspected those tires at every fueling, checking pressure before every trip. No explanation other than deterioration due to age.
I will be changing my tires at 6 years in the future and strongly recommending other people do the same. I'm a believer.
OK, an installation post for the JEGS heat shields. We are leaving for Idaho tomorrow and I wanted to make sure I had these installed before the trip so I could collect some temperature data.
1. Raise your right rear duals on the highest leveling ramp/blocks you have.
2. Block your front tires
3. Crawl underneath or use a creeper. Take with you the shield with clamps in the blocks, a slot-head screw driver and a 5/16" socket on a ratchet with a small extension.
4. Start at the outside of the tail pipe and thread the first clamp through the outer-most gap between the LD compartment heat shield and the tail pipe.
5. Position the shield with the shielding surface wrapping evenly and facing the tire. Secure the first clamp.
6. Move inboard and begin securing the next clamps at appropriate points along the tail pipe. With the 3-foot shield you will have shielded your inboard dual up to the point where the tail pipe "dives" away from the coach undercarriage toward its run along the inboard dual.
7. Make sure the clamps are secure and the heat shield faces the inboard dual tire.
Your work will go a lot easier if you us a motor-driven screw-and-socket driver like I've pictured below.
I'll report back with some temperature data after our road trip. My mind is open but I cannot help possess a slight bias toward a belief that any shielding of the tail pipe at this location along the inboard dual will help ease heat stress on that specific tire.
Dan
OK, an installation post for the JEGS heat shields. We are leaving for Idaho tomorrow and I wanted to make sure I had these installed before the trip so I could collect some temperature data.
1. Raise your right rear duals on the highest leveling ramp/blocks you have.
2. Block your front tires
3. Crawl underneath or use a creeper. Take with you the shield with clamps in the blocks, a slot-head screw driver and a 5/16" socket on a ratchet with a small extension.
4. Start at the outside of the tail pipe and thread the first clamp through the outer-most gap between the LD compartment heat shield and the tail pipe.
5. Position the shield with the shielding surface wrapping evenly and facing the tire. Secure the first clamp.
6. Move inboard and begin securing the next clamps at appropriate points along the tail pipe. With the 3-foot shield you will have shielded your inboard dual up to the point where the tail pipe "dives" away from the coach undercarriage toward its run along the inboard dual.
7. Make sure the clamps are secure and the heat shield faces the inboard dual tire.
Your work will go a lot easier if you us a motor-driven screw-and-socket driver like I've pictured below.
I'll report back with some temperature data after our road trip. My mind is open but I cannot help possess a slight bias toward a belief that any shielding of the tail pipe at this location along the inboard dual will help ease heat stress on that specific tire.
Dan
Dan, is this what you used? JEGS Performance Products 32032: Heat Shield Mat 12" x 12" | JEGS (http://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS-Performance-Products/555/32032/10002/-1) Also, it doesn't look like the worm screw clamps wrap around the shield, rather they are sandwiched between 2 layers??? Did you thread the clamps through something when installing?
Chris
Blow out ! (http://www.lazydazeowners.com/index.php?topic=30575.msg176532#msg176532)
('til he gets back...)
Chip
Blow out ! (http://www.lazydazeowners.com/index.php?topic=30575.msg176532#msg176532)
('til he gets back...)
Chip
Thanks, Chip. I neglected to look at earlier posts.
Chris
Our new heat shields have 1300 miles on them.
Using an infrared thermometer, the inside dual's side walls are running at near equal temps.
I'm happy
Larry
Good news, Larry! 👍
My inside right rear tire runs about 2 to 3 psi higher than the left inside rear tire. Based on the rise in tire pressures I see, I calculate the air in the inside right tire is 16 deg F to 24 deg hotter than the inside left rear tire. Here is the calculator I used (click "temperature" and note: the temperature must entered in Rankine or Kelvin, so 120 deg F = 459 + 120 = 579 deg Rankine):
Combined Gas Law Calculator - Calculates Volume, Pressure and Temperature (http://www.calculatoredge.com/chemical/combined%20gas%20law.htm)
Is 24 deg F significant? I don't know, but maybe if you routinely travel in the summer in the hot desert areas, it might be. Travel on the cooler coasts where the air temperatures are much lower, probably not.
Have returned from our trip which was the first using the newly installed heat shielding. Here's my report.
I qualify this by saying that while my TPMS reads both pressure and temperature, I do not consider either to be accurate values that would be acceptable to the engineering types. I know what my sensors show and I confirm that with a high quality pressure gauge and I also use an infrared non-contact thermometer to measure surface temps of tread and sidewalls. These measurements are all RELATIVE. I know the offsets and watch my sensor data for movement up or down, mentally doing the measured offsets.
The results: I noticed a definite decrease in the sensor-reported temperature of the right inside dual with the heat shield installed. When not sun exposed on the right side, my rear duals were often running very equally in temperature. When sun exposed, the right outside dual temperature often exceeded that of the inside dual. I rarely, if ever, observed those conditions before I installed the heat shield. Overall, I believe the heat shield accounts for a 4 to 6 degree temperature drop, on average, of the inside right dual. Keep in mind that a TPMS is reporting air temperature in the tire, not temperatures of the tread and sidewalls. Those temperatures are running higher than the air temps inside the tires. Again, its important to know your relative offsets between measurement of the sidewall and tread temperature versus the temperature reported by the sensor.
I think it is worthwhile to install some sort of heat shield along the exhaust pipe that is proximal to the right inside dual. Whether you fabricate an aluminum shield like Larry's nice work or use something else, anything that can be done to relieve any heat or pressure stress on the inside duals is probably not a waste of effort.
The argument that neither Ford nor the LD factory saw fit to install shields at this location is a valid one and I won't offer any rebuttal. Everyone's mileage will vary on this and the choice is yours.
Dan
Have returned from our trip which was the first using the newly installed heat shielding. Here's my report. Dan
The TPMS sensors that screw on the valve stem measure some combination of the tire's air temperature and the outside temperature. For that reason, I think the best relative measurement of tire temperature changes comes from noting the change in a tire's pressure when cold and when driving.
How much did the pressure of the inside rear tire increase before you put the heat shield on? How much did it increase after you added the heat shield?
My solution ... next Wednesday, Discount Tire is going to balance and rotate all the tires on our LD. I'm planning on doing this every 10,000 miles. As a result, the rear inside passenger side tire should only be exposed to higher exhaust temperatures for a relatively few miles before we buy new tires. Of course, I'll asked the tire guys to inspect all the tires for any signs of problems to include uneven wear, thread separation, etc. As most know, there's no charge for this service since I bought the tires from Discount Tire, although I tip each person involved in the work. I have to admit that I still like the idea of adding the DEI 010452 Titanium Pipe Shield - Exhaust Heat Shield, 6" x 3'.
I have read somewhere here that the Tireman sells a set of valve extenders with instructions for installation. We are having our tires rotated soon and I would like to probably change out the extenders that Les Schwab put on last year about 10K miles ago. They work fine and I am able to check pressure easily but don't remember if they are on metal or rubber stems. I seem to remember that they are what they had at the time. I have looked on line for the Tireman but don't see where these extenders kits or units for sale are. There are Dicor Air Guard recommended on LD companion and Tireman but that tireman link does not work for me. Any help Thanks!
Karen~Liam
26 ~ MB
I have read somewhere here that the Tireman sells a set of valve extenders with instructions for installation. We are having our tires rotated soon and I would like to probably change out the extenders that Les Schwab put on last year about 10K miles ago. They work fine and I am able to check pressure easily but don't remember if they are on metal or rubber stems. I seem to remember that they are what they had at the time. I have looked on line for the Tireman but don't see where these extenders kits or units for sale are. There are Dicor Air Guard recommended on LD companion and Tireman but that tireman link does not work for me. Any help Thanks!
Karen~Liam
26 ~ MB
Here's the correct link for the Tire Man Tire-Man: Home Page (http://tire-man.iwvisp.com/)
Your best bet is to call Chuck Carvitto (the Tire Man) directly at 1-888-889-8996 to confirm you order the correct kit. Chuck has sold his shop and now only sells his all-metal Valve Stem Kits. Be advised they only make shipments once a week.
I just had one of his kits installed in July.
Charles
Liam
You definitely want steel stems for brass extenders.
Besides the Tireman, Borg Tire also sells brass extensions.
Duallyvalve Kits for Ford, GM, Dodge - Class C (http://yourtireshopsupply.com/category/796_828/ford-dodge-class)
Larry
Thanks I know I need this!
~Liam
The question:
Is the location of the tire on a Ford E450 a issue for premature failure?
Problems for the study:
There are an infinite number of weight and length configurations. Even in my study the length will always be 26 ft but the weight can change daily.
There are an infinite number of outside temperature ranges. I traveled from mild summer low humidity to high summer high humidity. And all various inbetween.
There are an infinite number of sun shine various. the sun can hit the tires at many unpredictable angles and unpredictable amounts of time.
I'm saying all that to say this is very far from a fact based study. Results sadly on in the guessing range and probably only apply to me.
All that being said I have found the tires on the passenger rear side run about 5 to 10% higher on average. This result is consistent across all variables.
The question I have to ask myself is is worth putting a heat shield on the exhaust pipe to protect or expand the life on those tires. A different maybe. What I'm looking at is the product Amazon.com: Thermo-Tec 11600 1' X 6" Pipe Shield: Automotive (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B004PIHZOM/ref=psdc_15713921_t3_B0051UPBGM).
No a bad price to protect $200 tires.
glen
A search of the forum should bring up a thread on heat shields from 1-2 years ago; I used the term, 'heat shield for tires' and many posts on this topic popped up.
There's not much that hasn't already been discussed, often multiple times, on this board. ;)
On my 31', the main temp changes I see depend on which side of the rig/tow'd is on the sunny side.
Still, it's less than a decently configured large Round Table Pizza. ;)
I'd say go for it.
I had an inner rear, passenger side blowout two summers ago.
Thinking the exhaust heat has something to do with it, I built two shields that attach to the exhaust pipe, that blocks the infrared heat from directly impacting the inner tire.
Exhaust heat shields | Flickr (https://www.flickr.com/photos/lwade/sets/72157693074909430/)
On the TPMS, I can usually tell which side of the rig is in the sun by the slightly higher temperatures, on the sunny side.
Larry
When I used the Amazon link and inputted the requested year (2006) and model (I used the E-350 Super Duty as there was no E-450), it came back saying the product would not fit my vehicle. Larry, you’ve worked under there, do you think there’s any reason this gizmo wouldn’t work? — Jon
When I used the Amazon link and inputted the requested year (2006) and model (I used the E-350 Super Duty as there was no E-450), it came back saying the product would not fit my vehicle. Larry, you’ve worked under there, do you think there’s any reason this gizmo wouldn’t work? — Jon
The rear exhaust pipe for an E350 should be the same as a E450. The Thermo-Tech cover should work but I wonder how well it will fit.
The two sections of exhaust pipe that needs to be covered are curved and the Thermo-Tech covers looks to be made for a straight pipe. It may not wrap well.
There are two places the pipe needs to be covered, so two $30 covers will be needed.
I made the two metal shields for around ten dollars, including hose clamps.
Edit - forgot to include the link
Exhaust heat shields | Flickr (https://www.flickr.com/photos/lwade/sets/72157693074909430/)
Larry
A search of the forum should bring up a thread on heat shields from 1-2 years ago; I used the term, 'heat shield for tires' and many posts on this topic popped up.
There's not much that hasn't already been discussed, often multiple times, on this board. ;)
Here's the thread: Exhaust Pipe Heat Shield for Tires (http://www.lazydazeowners.com/index.php?topic=30575.0)
Here's the thread: Exhaust Pipe Heat Shield for Tires (http://www.lazydazeowners.com/index.php?topic=30575.0)
Jon & Loni's post now merged with this thread.
Chris
Here is a different product. The exhaust pipe curves around the axle when it is near the tire so it isn't a clean installation. The heat shield doesn't do curves very well.
Amazon.com: Design Engineering 010452 Titanium Pipe Shield - Exhaust Heat... (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00CF2RHB6/ref=twister_B072X3C5JZ?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1)