I thought the discussion of the benefits (or not) to tow a toad would have been addressed many times in the past, but my forum search did not reveal much. For those on trips for extended periods, do most tow an alternative vehicle? Is the expense and trouble worth it? Did most already have a suitable toad already, and does anyone use alternatives like a motorcycle/scooter? Thanks, Matt
Our extra RV vehicle (http://www.xootr.com/kick-scooter-mg.html). We have also used bikes, but these modes are quite limited for us- we hate riding on highways.
IMHO a toad is a tool to compliment your travel. If your "lifestyle" (I love to use that word) is to plant the RV in a camp and explore the area in a series of daily trips, a toad Amy be the answer. Also if you do off-road or urban (different toads of course) exploration. I can also see one as a benefit for full timers.
We tend to explore a lot on the way from camp to camp, then set in camp for a few days walking, paddling, painting, reading.
I have ours all picked out. (http://m.fiatusa.com/en/mobile/vehicles/2015/fiat-abarth/?ref=/en/abarth/&hrf=https%3A%2F%2Fduckduckgo.com%2F)
For us, we drive LD everywhere, but it is slow and inconvenient. But so is maneuvering a coach with a toad when we are poking along the back roads exploring. It seems this is an entirely personal choice.
I like your style Paul, and the little Fiat would seem to be an ideal companion vehicle. I'd personally prefer not to have the trouble/expense of a toad, but envisage breaking up camp each day to explore say an NP could get old. It may be prudent for us to start off without and see if the trade off is worth it. A scooter on a hitch carrier may be a suitable compromise for us - has anyone here tried this?
The "tow or no tow" topic has been discussed many times in the past; you might want to go to the Archives category and plug in "tow or no tow" (or a similar phrase) in the search bar. (Just an FYI: I found 34 pages of posts. Not all posts relate directly to the question of whether to tow or not, but rather deal with equipment, rig preparation, and tow vehicles; you may have to page through the lot to find relevant-to-your question material. :) )
In my experience, these are the most commonly-expressed reasons for not towing:
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Underpowered (or old, overweight, or in poor mechanical condition) rig.
Expense of buying an appropriate tow vehicle if one doesn't already have a vehicle that is within weight limits and that can be towed 4-down (without additional modifications.)
Additional maintenance, service, fuel expenses (and insurance, if the toad is not already insured as a "daily driver") for the toad. (And, possible additional expenses for "outfitting" the toad depending on what the owner carries on it, e.g., racks. and pods.)
Expense of a complete, safe tow system, i.e., hitch upgrades (if necessary), tow bar and attachment equipment, braking system, tire pressure monitoring system.
Can't back up with the tow attached (unless one is skilled, and then only for a short distance in a straight line.)
Possible difficulty in maneuvering the rig and toad in "tight access" situations/locations, e.g., some gas stations, parking areas, sightseeing locations, etc., or overheating/stressing the combo when pulling a very steep grade; (some unhitch and drive separately, but not possible if one is solo.)
Possible feelings of "pressure" to transport the toadless in group get-togethers and situations! :D
In my experience, these are the most commonly-expressed reasons to have a toad.
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Freedom! Leave the rig in place (don't have to break down "camp" and stow stuff back in the rig to go) and drive the toad to shop, do laundry, sightsee, explore, drive roads and go to places (including parking) where the rig would not go/fit.
Use the toad for additional "storage" (laundry, pet food, people food, tools, extra bedding, etc.).
Have a vehicle to use for transportation and to get to alternate living arrangements in case the rig needs downtime for "repair".
Each person's (couple's, family's) RV life and travel style is different; some can't imagine RV travel without a toad, while some feel little or no need to tow and choose to use alternate "supplemental transportation", e.g., renting a car when needed, or using a scooter or a bike. (And, some just drive the rig!) Whether one tows or not depends on how one uses the rig, where, for how long, and in what conditions one travels, and whether there are circumstances specific to the individual person/people which makes towing or not towing the better choice for them.
I'm sure that others will give their reasons for towing or not towing; in the end, one has to decide what is going to work for him/her/them.
First I'd like to comment on the fact that I have not always towed the same vehicle. I once towed a Honda Civic. I found that it did not have the ground clearance that I needed when negotiating forest service roads or others of that nature. Currently I am towing a Honda CRV. No more ground clearance problems. The same problem might also apply to a Fiat!
Then there were three separate incidents when the fuel pump failed on the primary vehicle. On one occasion there were four people (two couples) when the vehicle came to a stop. Have any of you ridden with five people in the cab of a tow truck, i.e. the driver and four others??? Let me tell you it is not fun! On the two other instances I was solo when the fuel pump went out. No problem... the tow truck driver took the L.D. and I followed in the toad. ;D
Thank you for the input! Just to clarify, when I talk about a scooter, I'm talking about motorcycle sized transport. In fact, it could be a smaller motorcycle on a hitch carrier, instead of a scooter. Has anyone had such a set-up; did the hitch need reinforcement?
After reading some LDO archived discussions, it appears the LD hitch is too weak a carry weight greater than 300#, and even within this weight some have had reinforcements welded on. 300# is pretty lame.
There is a member with a Twin-King that has reinforced the hitch and carries a motorized scooter. I have considered the same. And, I'm also looking at an electric bike. If you are not a full-timer, consider having the second person drive the car. This would avoid issues of long steep grades, backing up, and the expense of a 4-down toad, modifying it for towing, breaking system, etc. Hope you find a suitable solution.
Matt,
There are advantages and disadvantages of pulling a toad. We are currently at the point that we travel only with our 26-1/2 ft. Lazy Daze, without a toad or our previous scooter on the back. Seldom do we have problems finding parking for shopping at a super market or our daily Starbucks or equal coffee shop. We enjoy the ease to have our rig with us, and relax in it where ever we can go. We are not restaurant people and enjoy eating our meals on board, at locations where we enjoy the views. This could have something to do with age!!!!!
For many years we have used a toad, including Mexico, cross-country and Alaska. A few years ago we changed to a scooter on the back, but the hassle to take it off and put it on resulted that we more and more left it on the back, without any use. We finally decided that we could easily do without it and do not even miss it.
Our L D has sufficient solar to keep us comfortable without hook-ups. We prefer State and National Parks. If we do have to use an R V park we often do not even hook up, unless we like to take long showers.
Just another opinion.
Aad Rommelse
Just to clarify, when I talk about a scooter, I'm talking about motorcycle sized transport. In fact, it could be a smaller motorcycle on a hitch carrier, instead of a scooter. Has anyone had such a set-up; did the hitch need reinforcement?
I don't recall the weight of Jon's Vespa, but it might fit your requirements: Hauling A Scooter (http://www.lazydazeowners.com/index.php?topic=19512)
I found this series of 8-year-old posts on Jon's "scoot hauler" in the Archives, too, but the original message #95762 seems to be missing from the thread and the links are now dead. (Or, Jon's photo links that I clicked are.) I didn't find Jon's original post, not anything in the "Companion".
Any suggestions on how to locate the original post?
"the little Fiat would seem to be an ideal companion vehicle."
Only if you never plan to leave paved roads. The Fiat 500 has a meager 4.1 inches of ground clearance. I don't know of any production car with less. And having towed and driven a Honda Fit (5" ground clearance) for a number of years, I'm all too aware of how limiting that can be. In those years, despite driving carefully, I not only repeatedly scraped the front end of the vehicle on steep and/or uneven driveways, but I scraped a pinhole leak in the oil pan, which had to be welded up before I sold the car.
And mind you, I wasn't attempting any kind of off-road travel in the Fit. All this happened on city streets and in mostly developed campgrounds. I can't even imagine what would have happened in the same circumstances to a Fiat with an inch less ground clearance than my Fit.
I loved my Fit; it was light in weight, easy to tow, and fun to drive. For running into town for groceries or mail, it was great. But as I said, it imposed serious limitations on where I could safely go. I now tow a Subaru Forester. With 8.9 inches of ground clearance, it has taken me to many places--on and off paved roads--that I would not have dared to take the Fit to. Yes, it weighs more than the Fit... but that's a price I'm willing to pay to be able to go to so many more places.
You get my point: ground clearance determines where you can go. If the purpose of a towed car is to get out and explore, more ground clearance is better. It's something to keep in mind when you find yourself falling in love with a cute, tiny car that rides a scant few inches above the ground.
Ditto what Andy said although we started with a Chevy HHRwith 6.5 in and switched to a Forester. If you travel out west you will almost certainly want the clearance.
Jim
Traveled our first few years with no toad but often times bikes. The last 8 or so years with toad. I vastly prefer the freedom of having a small get-around when out on the road.
Just went from a Forester to a new Crosstrek. I believe it is 8.7 inches of clearance. I love it so far. Fun to drive and in four fill ups have achieved 28.95, 28.47, 28.97 and 28.35 mpg when 23-31is the expected. Getting a four-down car that doesn't require a lot of fuse pulling and whatnot is the ticket.
We love hiking. I can't imagine trying to get Ruby into a trailhead parking lot in a national park or some such. We also enjoy eating out about half the time on the road. Way too much fun searching out dives with great food. Lots of books and apps to help with that. Not many RV spots at restaurants.
Towing is a life style choice and it's not a cheap choice. For example, a new Rubicon, with SMI toad brakes plus tow bar, etc would be almost $40,000. It's sure not worth it if you only intend to do short trips, as most people do.
We have been "out" for five months and are now parked on rather good dirt road with a fine view of the San Rafael Swell. In a few days we will take our Jeep into The Maze of Canyonlands. [4WD only] for a few nights of camping under the stars. It's what we like to do, but it's not for everyone.
You need to decide what you want to do and then see if a tow is right for you.
This is a recent post on towing (http://www.lazydazeowners.com/index.php?topic=28840.0).
It doesn't have to be an all or nothing proposition. Depending in the type of trip we have planned, we sometimes tow and other times do not. I did a solo boondocking trip on the North Shore this past summer and loved being toad free. I was easily able to park a 27' LD at grocery stores, restaurants, laundromats etc. No hooking up and unhooking. Very easy to move around. On the other hand, when the 2 of us are traveling, the toad allows us some separation. It's really nice to set up camp and have the freedom to run for groceries or out to dinner in a small vehicle. Also much easier for 2 vs 1 to hook/unhook. Have you considered an e-bike? They only weigh a bit more that a regular bike and can be carried inside the RV when traveling. E-bikes are evolving and becoming lighter and more powerful (hills!).
Had the Lee Iacocca ebikes 10 years ago. Worked great when they worked. Had those bikes at the 2006 50th LD anniversary in Cheyenne. Took them all the way downtown and had a nice meal one night. 😊
When the batteries finally died we found out the company had gone out of business and there were no batteries to be had.😞 They are long gone from our lives.
I have always been intrigued by ebikes so if anyone out there is using the newest technology I would love to hear about how they are working for you.
I found this series of 8-year-old posts on Jon's "scoot hauler" in the Archives, too, but the original message #95762 seems to be missing from the thread and the links are now dead.
Maybe Jon will chime in with links to the photos, but here's message #95762: Yahoo! Groups (https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/lifewithalazydazerv/conversations/messages/95762)
He posted a couple of photos on this blog post: Houn's Journal: THINGS THAT GO BUMP IN THE MORN’ (http://hounsjournal.blogspot.com/2011/03/things-that-go-bump-in-morn.html)
Jon's scooter rack is beefy. It uses two additional receivers and frame extensions. It easily carries their Vespa.
Carrying any heavy cycle requires building a rack that hangs the weight off the frame end not the bumper.
Interestingly, at this month's LD Caravan, Jon mentioned he was thinking of getting a toad.
The inability to use the scooter in poor and/or cold weather significantly reduces a scooter or motorcycle's utility, not to mention it is even easier to get hurt..
Aging bodies do not appreciate such things as much as younger ones (ex-motorcyclist here).
We winter camp and cannot imagine not having a weather-tight toad, much less having one with minimal ground clearance.
We owned a 1983 LD for eight years and could not tow and really missed exploring the thousands of miles of back roads throughout the western US. Our 2003 LD has changed all of that.
Larry
Thanks for the link, Andrew!
And, Larry's comment "Aging bodies do not appreciate such things as much as younger ones (ex-motorcyclist here)." is on point!
I rode for several years when I was young, and, for a while, did consider getting a "scoot" similar to Jon's and carrying it on a two-point heavy-duty hitch on my 23.5". But, since I couldn't figure out how to carry the dog on the bike, I scrapped the idea! ;)
(And, yes, my brain kicked in and reminded me that riding in the rain and cold is not fun, and that road rash and broken bones don't heal quite as fast at 75 as they did at 35!)
Guess I will stick to wandering around in the rig.....
Joan
I found this series of 8-year-old posts on Jon's "scoot hauler" in the Archives, too, but the original message #95762 seems to be missing from the thread
Any suggestions on how to locate the original post?
Searching the Yahoo Archive board here for 95762 (the original Yahoo post numbers are at the top of each Archive post so they can be located) yielded this AZ/NM Trip Advice now Vespa (http://www.lazydazeowners.com/index.php?topic=19321.msg98187#msg98187)
Thank you for the input, and links to prior threads. Considering the comments of those who have gone through the motorcycle/scooter route, I'm going to take that off the table.
Finding suitable toads is getting more difficult each year.
Vehicle models that were towable just a couple years ago have lost this ability with the advent of CVT transmissions, none of which are towable.
The Honda CRV and Fit were very common picks and still are, in used form, but they are aging.
Jeeps once were lighter but now weight over 4000-lbs, in stock form. Newer, heavier models are towable but require the hitch to be upgraded, the Factory limit is 4000-lbs.
Suzuki too sold lightweight 4X4s, but no more, in this country.
If a manual transmission is OK, consider a Subaru. It's probably the best choice in a small, somewhat high clearance vehicle but none of them are truly "Trail rated". They will get you to most trailheads without issues and will be more comfortable than Jeep.
We tow a 15 year old Jeep Cherokee and wish we could buy another new one. Not sure what I will do in the future.
Larry
I really wanted to wait one or two more years to get a new toad but with the way things were going with tranny's that can't be towed four down went ahead and bought the Subaru Crosstrek a few weeks back. Got a pretty good deal on a 2016 as they move them to make way for the 2017's.
As to a dog on a bike, Boston Terrier lovers here like us will be happy to hear that we were in Key West a few years back and down a street came this guy on his non-motorized bike about 30 mph with his BT on his back gripping his dad's neck with his front paws for all he was worth. That dog looked happy as a clam with the wind blowing in his snout. We laughed for 10 minutes after seeing that!!!🐶🚴😂
This link offers helpful info on RV towable vehicles by manufactured year: Downloadable Dinghy Guides | MotorHome Magazine (http://www.motorhome.com/download-dinghy-guides/)
Thank you for the input, and links to prior threads. Considering the comments of those who have gone through the motorcycle/scooter route, I'm going to take that off the table.
Whoa, whoa! Not so fast. I've been away from the forum for a while, so late in viewing this thread. We've hauled our Vespa 250 on the custom-made rack from Eckharts for over 8 years now, and have had loads of adventures on it from the barrier islands to the Olympic Peninsula, from Death Valley to the Sandia Peak at 10k. It's been a champ and lots of fun. There are obvious drawbacks (nearly drowning on that barrier island), but we do two-up grocery and laundry runs with little problem, and tour all over with nothing between you and nature (a minor drawback amidst the bison in Yellowstone). As Larry has posted elsewhere, I have dallied with the idea of towing, which I have greatly resisted), but that might be some natural part of turning 71. Anyway, I wouldn't dismiss outright the scoot as your toad. Not towing has a lot of advantages too. -- Jon
"I wouldn't dismiss outright the scoot as your toad. Not towing has a lot of advantages too."
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If a person is new to RVing, giving oneself a chance to "goseedo" in the new-to-him/her rig and life/travel/camp style for a while before making major moves, e.g., tow or no, might save a lot of frustration, cash, and second-guessing down the line.
I understand the temptation to want to have all the "ducks" aligned when starting out, but discovering preferences through actual on-road experience can, and often does, change one's ideas of what's needed and wanted to enjoy the lifestyle.
Each person has different lists of "essentials" criteria; these must-haves and must-dos not only vary widely among RVers, but may (probably will) also change as travel/stay/lifestyle practices and priorities develop and shift.
The "YMMV" admonition I often tack on to posts applies in so many situations involving choices; what one person considers a "gotta have it" may be off another's radar all together, and I suggest that one can't really know what's going to work - or not work - for him/her/them without taking the time for "discovery and development" of one's personal RV life and travel style.
Yes, YMMV! ;)
Joan
Re: Joan's comment about not being able "to carry the dog on the bike," & the Boston Terrier in Key West,
I've not tried her on a bike (motorized or not), but Lilly gets a bit out of sorts if she sees me leaving on the mower without her (she rides between my feet, leaning to the left to catch the breeze in her face & bark at any dogs we pass)...now how would I rig a John Deere X324--I suppose I could take off the mowing deck to reduce weight, but could be towed 4 down in neutral? :D
Lynne
"...now how would I rig a John Deere X324--I suppose I could take off the mowing deck to reduce weight, but could be towed 4 down in neutral?"
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Very poor ground clearance, though! ;)
I've carried a 49cc Honda Ruckus scooter on a Tilt-a-Rack (combined weight well under 300 lbs) since 2004...for the last 6 seasons on my 2011 24FL. No problems. Yes, the hitch and attachments are inspected and torque checked annually.
This setup allows grocery runs, site seeing, etc.
Disadvantage: Doesn't go fast and NOT legal on freeways. I figure my biggest risk is becoming someone's hood ornament, as on a long flat stretch it tops out at 37mph.
Lori Y
2011 24 FL
This thread is interesting as each trip we take, we consider what the perfect second vehicle is.
Starting 30 years ago, we towed a Manx dunebuggy (fiberglass body on a Volkswagen pan) that only weighed 1600lb. and could be driven anywhere paved or unpaved. 3 kids and a German Shepherd in the back seat, reliable, great clearance, 20+ mpg, fun to drive, easy to fix, but very uncomfortable in cold or rain. Not perfect.
Next came the Toyota FJ40 Landcrusher. Wonderful on rough terrain and off pavement, but primitive on paved roads. 3900lb needed aux brakes, and if I didn't tie down the steering wheel it would occasionally turn left when I turned the tow vehicle tight right, like exiting a gas station and I would have to stop in the middle of the street, run back, and steer the FJ40 straight again. 55mph max. speed on the highway. 9mpg. Not perfect.
We are presently towing a small enclosed trailer with a large enduro motorcycle (BMW R1200GS, onroad/offroad with metal saddlebags for bringing all my wife's important stuff) and two bicycles. I really like the ease of towing a trailer. Backs up easily, good brakes, and can be maneuvered into tight spaces in camp. Trailer is shorter than a towed car, motorcycle gets 45mpg on the road, we can park it nearly anywhere, and we take the bike many places that we would never take a car or a rig. Motorcycles always win in the fun category, but still uncomfortable in cold or rain. Deep sand and mud are challenging when riding with my bride on the pillion seat. Best yet, but still not perfect.
Next stop may be a manual transmission Forester or a Wrangler. Forester wins in the mpg arena and reliability, but I worry a little about flat towing the complicated AWD system. Looks comfortable and safe, but hardly fun or interesting. On the other hand, we are often surprised where we discover people in Foresters where only Jeeps explored in the past. Wrangler is a compromise between the Forester and the R1200GS. Lousy mpg, mediocre reliability and highway safety, but more fun off pavement and made to tow.
When someone discovers the perfect toad, please tell me.
Harold
Next stop may be a manual transmission Forester or a Wrangler. Forester wins in the mpg arena and reliability, but I worry a little about flat towing the complicated AWD system. Looks comfortable and safe, but hardly fun or interesting. On the other hand, we are often surprised where we discover people in Foresters where only Jeeps explored in the past. Wrangler is a compromise between the Forester and the R1200GS. Lousy mpg, mediocre reliability and highway safety, but more fun off pavement and made to tow.
When someone discovers the perfect toad, please tell me.
Harold
We have been towing a 2011 Forester since Oct 2012. Estimated mileage towed around 25K with no issues. We have been many places we would not have considered with our previous Chevy HHR. Prep to tow consists of putting it in neutral and turning the ignition key to the first stop.
The only drawback to the manual over the automatic is low speed climbing. If you stop on a steep road I have found that I can't get started in 1st gear. This has happened a couple of times on some steeper dirt roads/trails. Wish it had a low gear.
Jim
A word to the wise for anyone considering a new Subaru for dingy towing; you should know that Subaru ***no longer** endorses towing any of their vehicles 4 wheels down. For years, they allowed manual transmission vehicles but no more.
I think I read this in Family Motor Coach a couple months ago. I have not seen this in any Subaru publication but would suggest checking with Subaru before you try to tow any 2017 Subaru.
Steve K.
I recently had an interesting conversation with our local Subaru dealership rep. He did indeed state that the 2017 Forester must not be towed four down, manual or automatic. I inquired if they had changed anything mechanical for the 2017 model and he didn't know. I pursued the question with the service manager. He stated that nothing has been changed, but that Subaru won't warranty the car if it has been towed. I asked if I bought a 2015 which states in the owners manual that the manual transmission model can be towed four down. He said he couldn't answer my question.
Pretty helpful.
I own a 2005 Forester with an automatic which my daughter presently uses while in graduate school. Other than high oil consumption, it is an excellent car and we have been amazed where we used to take it on rough dirt roads.
Next stop may be a manual transmission Forester or a Wrangler. Forester wins in the mpg arena and reliability, but I worry a little about flat towing the complicated AWD system. Looks comfortable and safe, but hardly fun or interesting. On the other hand, we are often surprised where we discover people in Foresters where only Jeeps explored in the past. Wrangler is a compromise between the Forester and the R1200GS. Lousy mpg, mediocre reliability and highway safety, but more fun off pavement and made to tow.
Only you know the kind of roads you wish to traverse.
We too have been amazed to see Subarus on some very poor roads but they are stopped when the trail is obstructed by a field of rocks, 6-8", or bigger, in diameter. There is no walking over them, they way a Jeep will, due to the lack of ground clearance. The Subaru has a little over 8" of ground clearance, from one end to the other. A Wrangler only has inch or so more clearance, under the axles, but it has much more clearance between the axles, enabling you to walk over much bigger rocks, by placing a wheel on the large rock and driving over it.
Pre 2017, manual transmission Subrus's are towed by many and seem to be relatively trouble free and get a good reliability rating from Consumer Reports. The Wranglers do far worse. On the other hand, all vehicles today are more reliable than those built twenty years ago.
Unfortunately, there are fewer and fewer new, towable vehicles sold today. Evidently the toad market is too small for any manufacturer to invest in a reliable driveline that can be flat towed. Jeeps have a transfercase with a true neutral, enabling hassle free towing.
AFAIK, Jeep is the only lightweight 4X4 with this feature. There are other four wheel drive vehicles sold but are to heavy to tow with an LD.
Larry
For us the choice is made by the places we want to go and those places require a speciality vehicle, a Jeep. When we could hike or bike, we did not need rock crawling capability. Now the Jeep gives us access to remote places. Plus we now enjoy rock crawling in Utah and Colorado. Most of the other states have few challenges for a stock Jeep, so it's forte is wasted there.
Unless you need the unique capabilities of a Jeep, it's a poor choice for a toad.
As to reliability, our 2007 has 60,000 driven miles and has had no issues. The 2014 only has 14,000 so it's too soon to say.
The poor MPH, is offset by the higher resale value.
"Unfortunately, there are fewer and fewer new, towable vehicles sold today."
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There are no Subarus listed as suitable for towing in the 2016 towing guide published by MotorHome magazine. :(
Joan
I don't tow, so just making an observation: it seems that so many of the towable vehicles are heavy. If I wanted a new or very late model toad (and didn't need/want a "rock crawler"), I'd look for a manual under 2500 pounds that had few or no mileage or "operational" limitations; only 2-3 choices fit those criteria.
Too bad John Deere Gators (or Polaris UTVs) aren't towable! (Uh, Larry, can you "make it so"? :D )
Joan
I don't tow, so just making an observation: it seems that so many of the towable vehicles are heavy. If I wanted a new or very late model toad (and didn't need/want a "rock crawler"), I'd look for a manual under 2500 pounds that had few or no mileage or "operational" limitations; only 2-3 choices fit those criteria.
Too bad John Deere Gators (or Polaris UTVs) aren't towable! (Uh, Larry, can you "make it so"? :D )
Joan
A small trailer could easily be built or bought to carry a Gator or Polaris. You know my number.
The problem lightweight vehicles, such as the Honda Fit, are strictly street vehicles and are not suitable for dirt roads or many back roads.
With the tiny wheels, they can get stuck in places you never would have considered to a be a hazard.
This maybe be fine if you have no desire to ever venture down a dirt road but here in the West, that eliminates about 80% of the available roads.
The sad fact is no one imports the huge variety of smaller 4X4 and AWD vehicles, available around the world, designed for poor roads.
Sticking with my mini-fleet of Jeep Cherokees
Larry
Jeep nesting area:
JEEPS FOR SALE! Buy Jeeps For Sale at Jeeps For Sale. Used and New Jeeps for... (http://www.thejeeptrader.com/)
Joan
Does anyone have knowledge or experience with Geo/Chevy Trackers?
Older models, but they seem to have respectable reliability, 4x4 option, light for towing all four down. They do have a towing speed limit of 55 mph, and the transmission needs to be circulated every 200-250 miles of towing.
Matt
Hi Matt. Never heard of a 55 mph limit on a Chevy (Geo) Tracker (also Suzuki Sidekick). California has a law not to tow Anything over 55 mph. That seems to be unevenly enforced, but I don't exceed that. With the transfer case in neutral, I leave the automatic transmission in 'Park'. Haven't had any problems yet. (Parking brake off and steering wheel unlocked.) Mine is a '92 and was towed by the previous owner, but I haven't towed it much yet. 118,000 miles and it does increment while being towed.
A 2wd, with an automatic might need the transmission oil circulated, maybe someone else might know about that. I don't drive mine on a daily basis, just enough exercise to keep it running. It is getting more difficult to find parts. I did just have the A/C upgraded to R-134A. RonB
"California has a law not to tow Anything over 55 mph."
Your statement is correct, as far as it goes! The rules posted along the Interstates and other Highways are intended for those who are towing travel trailers, horse trailers, utility trailers, ect. However it does not pertain to motor homes, even when pulling a toad! ;)
"California has a law not to tow Anything over 55 mph."
Your statement is correct, as far as it goes! The rules posted along the Interstates and other Highways are intended for those who are towing travel trailers, horse trailers, utility trailers, ect. However it does not pertain to motor homes, even when pulling a toad! ;)
Hi Steve,
I'm not sure that is correct. Here is what the vehicle code says:
Section 22406. (Amended by Stats. 2000, Ch. 787, Sec. 22.)
Cite as: Cal. Veh. Code §22406.
No person may drive any of the following vehicles on a highway at a speed in excess of 55 miles per hour:
(a)A motortruck or truck tractor having three or more axles or any motortruck or truck tractor drawing any other vehicle.
(b)A passenger vehicle or bus drawing any other vehicle.
(c)A schoolbus transporting any school pupil.
(d)A farm labor vehicle when transporting passengers.
(e)A vehicle transporting explosives.
(f)A trailer bus, as defined in Section 636.
All of that having been said... next time you have an opportunity to speak with a CHP Officer, ask him what he thinks!
a Chevy (Geo) Tracker (also Suzuki Sidekick).
With the transfer case in neutral, I leave the automatic transmission in 'Park'. Haven't had any problems yet.
It is getting more difficult to find parts.
Four years ago, my brother and I searched for and researched both Trackers and Sidekicks, looking for a clean model plus finding out what parts that had become hard to get.
The majority of the vehicles we looked at were wither high mileage models and or had been converted into off-road vehicles.
We learned that transmissions are very difficult to locate or repair, along with many other parts. These vehicles have been out of production for many years and did not sell in large numbers.
There are several companies that specialize in these vehicles, selling parts, service and used models. A good percentage of available parts have been stockpiled by these companies. A Google search will provide hours of reading.
Ultimately, my brother gave up the search and found a clean, low mileage Cherokee, a vehicle that sold by the millions, with parts widely available just about anywhere.
Any older vehicle will reach the point where they become a 'hobby' cars, which is fine you are a decent mechanic and enjoy working on cars, but it becomes a PIA, if you are not.
I do feel a good, used toad, as opposed to new, is a better choice for many, considering how beat up the front ends can get from thrown rocks and gravel.
There are shields that help but do increase the complexity of hooking up and disconnecting, while not catching every thrown rock.
IMO, might as well start with a vehicle with a few dings to begin with and not worry about adding a few new ones. I have enough things to worry about. YMMV
Larry
I'm looking at buying either a 27.5 or 31 and flat towing my 2008 Chev Colorado 4WD truck. (Owner's manual confirms it can be flat towed tho I haven't seen it mentioned in the various discussions here) Any thoughts on what I might expect MPG - towing vs not towing? I'm thinking the 27.5 with the same engine but lighter than the 31 should get better fuel mileage. Thanks!
"...2008 Chev Colorado 4WD truck..."
What's the weight of your truck??? If it's over the rated capacity of the hitch you may want to reconsider! :-\
Thanks for the question. GCWR of the Chevy Colorado is 5,300 lbs. I see that the LD std 2 inch receiver was rated for 5K lbs in 2009 and that LD changed that to 4K lbs by 2017. I have my eye on a 2004 but the LD Spec sheet for the 2004 only says "2 inch receiver" w/o reference to its capacity. Other feedback? I prefer the flexibility of a toad (a small truck with my small motorcycle in the bed) AND I'd rather learn from your collective knowledge. Hard knocks can be expensive ;-)
"...2008 Chev Colorado 4WD truck..."
What's the weight of your truck??? If it's over the rated capacity of the hitch you may want to reconsider!
The 2016 Colorado, in its lightest configuration, weights 4140-lbs. That's an empty vehicle.
http://webcontent.goodsam.com/motorhomemagazine.com/2016DinghyGuide.pdf
It is almost impossible to get accurate weight numbers for any particular configuration.
For back country touring, you should carry some survival gear (food, water, clothes), jacks, spare tire, and tools.
The basic gear most carry in their cars adds to weight and possibly the weight of fuel needs to added too, depending on how the vehicle's specified weight is measured.
Depending on how you order the truck, loaded it will weigh 4500-5000-lbs. This exceeds the Factory's 4000-lbs bumper hitch rating and may exceed the total capacity of the chassis..
The hitch will need reinforcing, find a good hitch shop.
Sure wish there were lighter 4X4s available.
Two upgrades you should consider.
Hitch receiver upgrade | Flickr (https://www.flickr.com/photos/lwade/sets/72157647765653660/)
Rear bumper mounting repair | Flickr (https://www.flickr.com/photos/lwade/sets/72157605167526411/)
Larry
"I prefer the flexibility of a toad (a small truck with my small motorcycle in the bed)"
---
One also needs to calculate the additional weight of the "small motorcycle" carried in the bed of a pickup that likely will weigh 4500-5000 pounds when set up and loaded. JMHO, but I'd be looking for alternate tow choices.
My motorcycle, a Suzuki Vstrom, weighs 523 lbs, the Rampage motorcycle lift is 350 lbs for a total of 873 lbs. My doorjam on the 2009 Chev Colorado 4wd says GCWR 5,300 lbs. I found a figure on-line of curb weight of 3,375 for the truck. As I understand it, the curb weight factors in passengers (& there won't be any while towing) & is the number that is to be considered when looking at the hitch rating of 4K lbs. So to verify the actual weight, I'll take it to a truck stop tomorrow. If the weight is in the 3,375 range + motorcycle and lift, I should be fine. If the number is as high as some have seen, I have to regroup. Thanks!
My doorjam on the 2009 Chev Colorado 4wd says GCWR 5,300 lbs. I found a figure on-line of curb weight of 3,375 for the truck. As I understand it, the curb weight factors in passengers (& there won't be any while towing) & is the number that is to be considered when looking at the hitch rating of 4K lbs. So to verify the actual weight, I'll take it to a truck stop tomorrow. If the weight is in the 3,375 range + motorcycle and lift, I should be fine. If the number is as high as some have seen, I have to regroup. Thanks!
The 2009 Motorhome Magazine's toad Guide list the weight of the the Colorado/Canyon 4WD at 3,754-lbs.
http://www.royrobinsonrv.com/images/pdf/Dinghy-Guide-2009.pdf
I assume this is with the 5 cylinder engine and the lightest transmission, usually a manual. It is more than the amount you posted, the addition of the transfer case and front drive components add to the total weight.
I would be interested in what your Colorado weights too. Finding the actual weight of cars and trucks is as difficult finding the true weight of most RVs.
My Cherokees are aging and, at some point, they will need replacement. Keeping the replacement's weight at 4000-lbs or less is a must. As it is, our LD struggles to pull the 4000-lb Cherokee over steep, high altitude passes. If the Mountain Directory indicates a long, steep grade, I will often disconnect and have my wife drive the Jeep separately.
Larry
"the curb weight factors in passengers (& there won't be any while towing)"
A full tank of gas but no passengers.
Curb weight - Wikipedia (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curb_weight)
Ed
Our county dump has scales. They are for trucks but they will weigh owners cars. You could find a set of scales and weigh your car as driven. That way you are working with a real number and can make plans accordingly. If you are bumping up against the factory limit a trip to a welding shop is less than a new to you used car.
Took my Colorado 4wd (WITH motorcycle and lift) to truck scales - it weighed more than I had hoped for @ 4,943 lbs . I'm pretty good at living light and will insure I do not exceed the GVWR of 14,500 lbs for the LD. Since the LD GCWR is 22,000, looks like I'm alright on total chassis capacity (14,500 + 4,943 = 19,443) - so I'm back to the hitch issue. If I make the deal on the MB LD, I'll take Larry's pictures in to a good hitch shop and get the 4k lb hitch beefed up.
This is incredibly helpful. Other thoughts welcomed. Thanks!
"I'll take Larry's pictures in to a good hitch shop and get the 4k lb hitch beefed up."
That's exactly what I did last Saturday and all I tow is a 2008 Honda CRV! ;)
A word of caution regarding the Motorhome Magazine listing - When I began traveling in 2008, I checked the guide. It listed a Hyundai as being flat towable. I went to a Hyundai dealership. They, too, said their car was flat towable. I insisted on checking the owner's manual. It confirmed that the car was flat towable - maximum speed, 15 mph, maximum distance 15 miles. So, ALWAYS check the owner's manual before buying a TOAD.
Ken F in NM
"for @ 4,943 lbs
Toads have a way of becoming storage places for large items like lawn chairs, bar-b-ques etc., and general "stuff".
When we recently started towing again, I was guessing that "stuff" wouldn't weigh more than a hundred pounds, or so.
But when I added the weight of the towing hardware , like the brackets and such, and "stuff" ,then had it weighed 'trip ready' I was up to 300# with a 1/2 tank of gas.
You may well be dragging some 5,200+- pounds around.
That may prove to be a challenge on a hot day on a steep mountain road.
I would suggest getting one of those devices that monitors transmission fluid temp, like a Scan Gauge or equivalent.
In 2008 Ford increased the GVWR and the size of the brakes. If a 2008, or newer, is in the budget, that would be a good choice.
Enjoy.
Ed
dragging around a slightly too heavy jeep.
"maximum speed, 15 mph, maximum distance 15 miles. "
You're retired Ken, where you going in such a hurry?
😂😂
Ed