The whole gross vehicle weight thing is a little confusing for me. If a v10 LD can pull 4000 lbs, that's probably only if empty. How much does the average LD weigh when fully packed with stuff? I have an Element I'd like to pull, but I think it weighs 3560 lbs, so doesn't that mean I could only add 400 lbs of stuff (including me) to the LD? That doesn't sound like much stuff especially if I add solar panels.
I did search the forums, but I'm guessing I'm using the wrong keywords because I found information that didn't relate to my questions. I'm sorry if this has been asked a gazillion times. If so, I'd love a link to the info.
Thanks.
Mimi
"The whole gross vehicle weight thing is a little confusing for me."
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One source of RV weight-related terminology definitions:
RV Weight Terms (http://www.livingthervdream.com/RV-weight-terms.html)
Mimi,
Got our 2015 24ft Twin King weighed just this morning.
GVWR on these is 14500 and the tag from the mothership says our OCCC is 3676, my guess was with everything (including us) in place we'd be 1000 under that. Turns out we're at 12550, nearly a ton under capacity at this point. Obviously, owners of the 27 and 31ft models will need to be somewhat more cautious.
The GCWR (LD plus toad max weight) is 20000, so a toad within the 4000 max specified weight would not affect the LD's own GVWR.
Steve
"The whole gross vehicle weight thing is a little confusing for me."
----
One source of RV weight-related terminology definitions:
RV Weight Terms (http://www.livingthervdream.com/RV-weight-terms.html)
Thank you. I think I need to go to RV boot camp! Who's on first....;-)
Hi Mimi: First, after you get your rig and load it up, you should get it weighed. This is for everyones' safety, including yours. This can be done at larger RV ralleys, or you can get it done at a truck scale. Here goes a short tutorial on weights, and I apologize in advance if this is known information. This applies to any manufacturer using the Ford E450 Chassis.
This info. does not apply to older E450s or the Ford E350.
All newer Ford E450 chassis are built to carry a maximum amount of weight, 14500 pounds, known as the Gross Vehicle Weight Rating. The Ford E450 chassis is built to tow, and the maximum amount of weight of the RV and tow vehicle combined (Maximum Combined Weight Rating) is 20000 pounds at *sea level*. These weight limits are for everything, you, your friends, your pets, your food, your water, your stuff.
The different models of RVs and LDs can carry different amounts of people and stuff, because of how much the "home" part of the motorhome weighs. The higher the weight of the home, the less stuff. Things that can effect the weight of the home are the length (generally the longer the RV the more it weighs), and options (slide outs and leveling jacks for example). The difference between the maximum amount the chassis can carry (GVWR) and the weight of the home is the Occupant and Cargo Carrying Capacity (OCCC), i.e., the amount of stuff you can carry. So, two identical LDs are not likely to weigh the same amount because of how much stuff may be on board. Thus, I will provide you with some numbers from our mid-bath taken a couple of years ago, but you should not assume that a identical rig will weigh the same.
The following is our recorded weights, with these parameters:
27 foot mid-bath, no tow car
Gas full
Propane full
Water full
3 adults on board, 2 up front, 1 at dinette
Clothes on board for a two month trans continental trip
Black and Gray tanks empty
Good supply of food (just left Walmart)
Driver's Front 2150# Pass. Front 2075# Total weight on front axle 4225#
Driver's Rear 4425# Pass. Rear 4200 Total weight on rear axle 8625#
Total RV weight 12850#, a whopping 1650# under max. chassis weight
Finally, be careful where you tow. Members on this forum have reminded all of us, that the tow capacity of any Ford E450 will drop if you start climbing in elevation. And there could be a time when the tow car may need to be dis-connected and driven separately up the mountain.
Hope this helps.
Mimi,
Got our 2015 24ft Twin King weighed just this morning.
GVWR on these is 14500 and the tag from the mothership says our OCCC is 3676, my guess was with everything (including us) in place we'd be 1000 under that. Turns out we're at 12550, nearly a ton under capacity at this point. Obviously, owners of the 27 and 31ft models will need to be somewhat more cautious.
The GCWR (LD plus toad max weight) is 20000, so a toad within the 4000 max specified weight would not affect the LD's own GVWR.
Steve
Pardon my silly questions but, if the GVWR is 14500 and OCCC is 3676, do I subtract the OCCC from the GVWR to determine what the actual GVWR is? The GCWR doesn't include contents so, what if... oh my gosh I'm lost. lol The GCWR has nothing to do with contents? The GVWR is just the LD alone and empty? Add the OCCC for contents and people and the total is 18,176. How do you get to 20k for the GCWR?
I'm sorry. I'm so confused.
While you could spend a lot of time "calculating" or go to an RV service shop like Camping World, I'm going to go out on a limb here. One person traveling in a midbath newer than 2000 should have no problem towing your vehicle at most elevations. Just limit those rocks! They could add up fast! Sounds to me that you are highly unlikely to exceed the CGWR.
Hi Mimi: First, after you get your rig and load it up, you should get it weighed.
This info. does not apply to older E450s or the Ford E350.
I'm looking at 2000-2006 LD's.How do I go about finding out what the weight restrictions are for those E450's? I thought an E450 was an E450.
All newer Ford E450 chassis are built to carry a maximum amount of weight, 14500 pounds, known as the Gross Vehicle Weight Rating. The Ford E450 chassis is built to tow, and the maximum amount of weight of the RV and tow vehicle combined (Maximum Combined Weight Rating) is 20000 pounds at *sea level*. These weight limits are for everything, you, your friends, your pets, your food, your water, your stuff.
Thank you. I get that! lol
The difference between the maximum amount the chassis can carry (GVWR) and the weight of the home is the Occupant and Cargo Carrying Capacity (OCCC), i.e., the amount of stuff you can carry. So, two identical LDs are not likely to weigh the same amount because of how much stuff may be on board. Thus, I will provide you with some numbers from our mid-bath taken a couple of years ago, but you should not assume that a identical rig will weigh the same.
When you say "the amount of stuff you can carry" you're referring to everything but the toad, right?
Driver's Front 2150# Pass. Front 2075# Total weight on front axle 4225#
Driver's Rear 4425# Pass. Rear 4200 Total weight on rear axle 8625#
Total RV weight 12850#, a whopping 1650# under max. chassis weight
How do I know how much the driver's front vs passenger front weighs? Is that how they weigh trucks at the scales?
If I had the same everything that you have. I wouldn't be able to tow my Element which weighs 3650 lbs. I'd need a shorter LD, like a 24' I guess.
Finally, be careful where you tow. Members on this forum have reminded all of us, that the tow capacity of any Ford E450 will drop if you start climbing in elevation. And there could be a time when the tow car may need to be dis-connected and driven separately up the mountain.
Hope this helps.
Thank you so much! What wonderful and clear information! I really can't thank you enough for taking so much time to explain this to me. I was truly lost. Thank you! Now, I guess I should be looking for a short LD with an E450 because I don't think I can get rid of my Element.
Mimi
While you could spend a lot of time "calculating" or go to an RV service shop like Camping World, I'm going to go out on a limb here. One person traveling in a midbath newer than 2000 should have no problem towing your vehicle at most elevations. Just limit those rocks! They could add up fast! Sounds to me that you are highly unlikely to exceed the CGWR.
I don't know. Based on the numbers rm2011ldmb stated, it seems I'd be well over the 1650lbs he had left over, with my 3600lb Element, even without rocks!:-)
I don't know. Based on the numbers rm2011ldmb stated, it seems I'd be well over the 1650lbs he had left over, with my 3600lb Element, even without rocks!:-)
Think of the two numbers as two different stopping points.
1) The weight capacity for the coach and its contents stops at 14,500 pounds.
2) The COMBINED weight of the coach and its contents
AND YOUR TOAD stops at 20,000 pounds, so . . .
3) Unless you fill the Element with rocks, you should be fine with towing it with any E-450 chassis/length Lazy Daze, assuming you don't fill the motorhome itself past the 14,500 pound stopping point.
Virtual hugs,
Judie
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Thank you Judie. With RM211LDMB's information, yours and the others, I believe I do understand now. Gosh I'm so dense about this. I won't be carrying much with me outside of full fuel tank, etc. and my dog, so I should be well under the max. I think I'll probably use a composting toilet instead of a black tank, so that should help with weight a little bit. Maybe that will offset the solar panels I plan to add. I'll have to figure in a flatbed trailer too because the Element has to be towed 4 down and I don't think I want to do that sooo, now to look at trailers!
Thanks to everyone for chiming in and clearing my confusion. :-)
"I'll have to figure in a flatbed trailer too because the Element has to be towed 4 down and I don't think I want to do that sooo, now to look at trailers!"
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??? Towing "four down" means towing the car behind the motorhome on its own four wheels; any toad can be loaded onto a "trailer" or a tow dolly, so your Element doesn't have to be towed "four down". But, did you check to make sure that your Element can be towed four down if you choose to do so? Here's a resource to do that:
Downloadable Dinghy Guides | MotorHome Magazine (http://www.motorhome.com/download-dinghy-guides/)
Also, the gvwr of the Ford E450 V-10 went up to 14500 pounds with the 2008 models; that model year still offered a V-8 for the 24' with the gvwr of 14050. If you're only considering LDs on the Ford E450 chassis from 2000-2006, the maximum gvwr that you have to work with is 14050 pounds, not 14500.
I have never towed a vehicle, so cannot offer any direct advice, but from what I have read - and I'm sure there will be plenty of input on the subject - towing an appropriate vehicle four wheels down is MUCH preferable to using a trailer, almost without exception. The only reason given to tow on a trailer is if a vehicle IS NOT capable of being towed four down.
This is SO preferable a method that there are ways of fixing up a transmission to allow towing of an otherwise unsuitable vehicle four down in place of using a trailer or dolly. We don't need to go into this because your vehicle is already "golden" as far as towing is concerned!
What do you see as the advantage of NOT towing four down?
Basically . . . what are you going to do with the trailer/dolly when you are camped after you have taken your car off it? If you plan to never be in a regulation-sized campsite, this may pose no problem, but you will still have the extra work to keep it out of your way and secured when not directly in use.
Virtual hugs,
Judie
•~•~•~•~•~•~•~•~•~•~•~•~•
Thank you Judie. With RM211LDMB's information, yours and the others, I believe I do understand now. Gosh I'm so dense about this. I won't be carrying much with me outside of full fuel tank, etc. and my dog, so I should be well under the max. I think I'll probably use a composting toilet instead of a black tank, so that should help with weight a little bit. Maybe that will offset the solar panels I plan to add. I'll have to figure in a flatbed trailer too because the Element has to be towed 4 down and I don't think I want to do that sooo, now to look at trailers!
Thanks to everyone for chiming in and clearing my confusion. :-)
"I'll have to figure in a flatbed trailer too because the Element has to be towed 4 down and I don't think I want to do that sooo, now to look at trailers!"
-----
??? Towing "four down" means towing the car behind the motorhome on its own four wheels; any toad can be loaded onto a "trailer" or a tow dolly, so your Element doesn't have to be towed "four down". But, did you check to make sure that your Element can be towed four down if you choose to do so? Here's a resource to do that:
Downloadable Dinghy Guides | MotorHome Magazine (http://www.motorhome.com/download-dinghy-guides/)
Also, the gvwr of the Ford E450 V-10 went up to 14500 pounds with the 2008 models; that model year still offered a V-8 for the 24' with the gvwr of 14050. If you're only considering LDs on the Ford E450 chassis from 2000-2006, the maximum gvwr that you have to work with is 14050 pounds, not 14500.
Yeah sorry, I wasn't very clear there. Because of its all wheel drive, it can't be towed 2 down, which was my preference. Since that's not an option and I don't want to tow it 4 down, I would have to get a trailer. I don't want to tow it 4 down because doesn't that put miles on the car?
"Also, the gvwr of the Ford E450 V-10 went up to 14500 pounds with the 2008"
Thank you for that information! I had no idea. I'm looking at LD's 2000-2006 so I'll definitely need a light trailer to tow my Element.
So much to learn....
Mimi
towing an appropriate vehicle four wheels down is MUCH preferable to using a trailer, almost without exception.
What do you see as the advantage of NOT towing four down?
Basically . . . what are you going to do with the trailer/dolly when you are camped after you have taken your car off it?
Virtual hugs,
Judie
•~•~•~•~•~•~•~•~•~•~•~•~•
Well Judie, you certainly clarify things for me:-) Thank you! I saw a Youtube video of a toad blowout. It was terrible. Not only did it destroy the car, but the RV was so severely damaged that I think it had to be towed. I thought a trailer would mitigate that possibility. I wouldn't mind a damaged trailer as much as I would mind a totaled car. I also thought towing 4 down put miles on the car. Is that wrong? I also read that the insurance is cheaper if it's on a trailer.
I think I may be misinformed :-) lol
Well Judie, you certainly clarify things for me:-) Thank you! I saw a Youtube video of a toad blowout. It was terrible. Not only did it destroy the car, but the RV was so severely damaged that I think it had to be towed. I thought a trailer would mitigate that possibility. I wouldn't mind a damaged trailer as much as I would mind a totaled car. I also thought towing 4 down put miles on the car. Is that wrong? I also read that the insurance is cheaper if it's on a trailer.
I think I may be misinformed :-) lol
A tire pressure monitoring system will help with the blow out concern. Insurance companies don't care how you tow your car and it will have no impact on premium.
Jim
Thank you Jim. There is so much information out there that it's difficult separating the good from the bad. I guess towing 4 down is the answer for me.
Well Judie, you certainly clarify things for me:-) Thank you! I saw a Youtube video of a toad blowout. It was terrible. Not only did it destroy the car, but the RV was so severely damaged that I think it had to be towed. I thought a trailer would mitigate that possibility. I wouldn't mind a damaged trailer as much as I would mind a totaled car. I also thought towing 4 down put miles on the car. Is that wrong? I also read that the insurance is cheaper if it's on a trailer.
I think I may be misinformed :-) lol
I also thought towing 4 down put miles on the car. Is that wrong? Yes and no. Yes, the towed car experiences all the miles you drive, putting a little wear on non-motorized parts, mainly tires. No, the odometer does not register towed miles.
Chris
I also thought towing 4 down put miles on the car. Is that wrong?
Yes and no. Yes, the towed car experiences all the miles you drive, putting a little wear on non-motorized parts, mainly tires. No, the odometer does not register towed miles.
Chris
Wow...that's great! Thank you! I can deal with tires. My Element is a 2007 and has 28k miles on it. I didn't want to do anything that would increase the mileage. The more you guys/gals chime in, the happier I get! :)
Mimi, I had our LD weighed at a FMCA ralley, that offered 4 corner weighing, i.e., each tire(s) are weighed independently of each other. I have not had the rig weighed at a truck stop weigh station, but I believe there you only get front axle, rear axle, not the four corners independently.
Most large RV Clubs, FMCA, or Escapees will offer 4 corner weighing at their larger events. There is a small fee for this service.
"I guess towing 4 down is the answer for me."
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Mimi, concerns about weight, tire wear, etc., may be moot with this particular vehicle as a toad; according to the dinghy towing guide listed in my previous post, the only towable 2007 Honda SUV is a CRV; the Element is not listed as being towable.
If the dinghy towing guide is correct (and I have no reason to think that it's not), you will not be able to tow your Honda Element "four down", i.e., on its own wheels behind the motorhome. You may want to read what the Element owner's manual says about towing, and talk to a knowledgeable Honda person for corroboration.
Honda CR-Vs and Elements were towable 4-down until the 2015 model when Honda changed the transmission in the CR-V. I believe the last production year for the Element was 2011 so all Elements are towable.
Monti
I believe the last production year for the Element was 2011 so all Elements are towable.
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If this is accurate, do you know the reason why the Element would not be listed as being towable in the dinghy guide?
I suggest checking Remco Towing; plugging in the model specifics might offer a definitive answer of whether the Element it or is not towable and if so, what modifications would need to be made.
Store : Remco (http://www.remcoindustries.com/Towing/Store.php)
While you could spend a lot of time "calculating" or go to an RV service shop like Camping World
I would never ever ask for information at Camping World. Unless I wanted a chuckle.
"I guess towing 4 down is the answer for me."
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Mimi, concerns about weight, tire wear, etc., may be moot with this particular vehicle as a toad; according to the dinghy towing guide listed in my previous post, the only towable 2007 Honda SUV is a CRV; the Element is not listed as being towable.
If the dinghy towing guide is correct (and I have no reason to think that it's not), you will not be able to tow your Honda Element "four down", i.e., on its own wheels behind the motorhome. You may want to read what the Element owner's manual says about towing, and talk to a knowledgeable Honda person for corroboration.
Yes, Thank you. I did some research on this a while back and discovered that that statement may very likely be legalese for Honda not wanting to toad test Elements after 2005 since they were planning to discontinue the car. They didn't want to invest more money into it so they wouldn't warranty later models for being towed. People have been towing E's behind RV's without issue, as far as I can tell. They just follow the instructions from Honda for the 2004 and before E's. Apparently, the drive train on the CRV is the same as on the E. I think the issue is lubricating the AWD system, which must be done every 8 hours by a start and shift procedure. I wouldn't be driving even close to that on a daily basis. I would give it a try because I just can't part with my E.
I believe the last production year for the Element was 2011 so all Elements are towable.
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If this is accurate, do you know the reason why the Element would not be listed as being towable in the dinghy guide?
My information is that, Honda wouldn't warranty Honda Elements after 2004 for being towed because, while they didn't change anything in the cars, they didn't want to make an additional investment in tow testing because they were planning to discontinue the car. The legal dept rewrote the manuals to accommodate the company. There is actually conflicting information in the same manual years. This is what Honda Dealers have said, along with Remco and Honda Element owners. I have no reason not to believe them because I have never found any reports of issues flat towing the E.
I suggest checking Remco Towing; plugging in the model specifics might offer a definitive answer of whether the Element it or is not towable and if so, what modifications would need to be made.
Store : Remco (http://www.remcoindustries.com/Towing/Store.php)
Yes! They have outfitted a lot of E's for towing behind RV's. How did you know that? lol Wow...you guys know your stuff:-)
Actually, the gross combined weight for the 2017s is 22,000 lbs; however, the GVRW is still 14,500 lbs. This implies that one could tow a 7,500 lb vehicle....remember hitch is only rated at 4,000 lbs.
I towed a 2007 Honda Element SC automatic, following some specific guidelines, and never had a problem. I currently tow a 2008 Honda Civic that is not on the list of towables following basically the same procedures. It's all about legal issues as some people don't follow instructions very well and when there transmissions fail, they try to sue the mfg.
BTW, my Element was a very good toad. Tracked nice and had lots of storage.
It's good to see that LD has finally updated their paper work for Fords GCVW as it has been 22,000 lbs since at least 2011.
Dave & Sandy
2014 Mid Bath
It's good to see that LD has finally updated their paper work for Fords GCVW, as it has been 22,000 lbs since at least 2011.
Dave and Sandy
2014 Mid Bath
We have towed a 2002 Honda CRV since acquisition in Oct 2012. It's very intimidating at first, but one quickly learns the ropes. The Ford E450 handles the toad effortlessly. We love the convenience of a toad ( especially when we travel together). We have the hookup and disconnect down to a science. Someone else here referred to the toad as a "rolling storage shed". I really love that description! We use it to carry the bikes (inside), kennels, helmets, and a few misc things. We removed the larger of the 2 seats to make more room for the bikes.
Judie talked about two "stops" - 14400 (or 14500?) for the RV total, and 20,000 for the RV plus whatever is towed. Let me add a third stop - 4000 pounds maximum for the standard LD hitch. You can load your LD any way you want, as long as you do not exceed 14400 pounds. (Actually, you should check each axle. Keep the front below 4900 and keep the rear below 9500.) You can then tow a 3500 pound car without worrying about being overweight, as long as you do not exceed the other "stops". If you put a car on a trailer or a dolly, make sure you add the weight of the car and the weight of the trailer or dolly, keeping that total below 4000.
Now, for a little real-world stuff... My 2008 MB, loaded, with full fresh water and gas and empty waste tanks, comes in at 14100, and I tow a Subaru Forester which when filled with gas and what I carry in it, weighs 3880 pounds, making my total, going down the road, 17980 pounds. I do not climb hills fast, and I use a lower gear to descend, but it seems to be fine, with 67000 miles covered that way.
Ken F in WY
Judie talked about two "stops" - 14400 (or 14500?) for the RV total, and 20,000 for the RV plus whatever is towed. Let me add a third stop - 4000 pounds maximum for the standard LD hitch.
Now, for a little real-world stuff... My 2008 MB, loaded, with full fresh water and gas and empty waste tanks, comes in at 14100, and I tow a Subaru Forester which when filled with gas and what I carry in it, weighs 3880 pounds, making my total, going down the road, 17980 pounds. I do not climb hills fast, and I use a lower gear to descend, but it seems to be fine, with 67000 miles covered that way.
Ken F in WY
The older LD's, like before 2006 weigh 14,050 someone said. How can I confirm the weights of each year? The 4000 lb hitch is perfect since the Element is 3600 lbs. I did remove the rear seats, so that probably takes off another 150 lbs or so. When you said you don't climb hills fast. How fast can you go? It seems I'll be okay on weight, but I would like to lighten it further. How much weight does a black tank add, do you know? I plant to install a composting toilet, so thought I would just remove the black tank. Good idea? Bad idea?
The good old Pocket Guide (http://www.andybaird.com/travels/LD-guide-web/changes.htm) compiled by Andy makes us all seem smarter than we are. You may already be using it.
"How much weight does a black tank add, do you know? I plant to install a composting toilet, so thought I would just remove the black tank. Good idea? Bad idea?"
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You may want to read this archived thread on the viability of composting toilets in RVs before deciding to jettison holding tanks. (And, one does have to dump the grey tank, too, so why not just do both at the same time?)
composting toilets (http://www.lazydazeowners.com/index.php?topic=6862.msg31737#msg31737)
I have no idea how much the black tank weighs empty, but, for practical purposes, one can probably figure the "effluent weight" at 8.3 pounds per gallon, i.e., the same as water.
I'm a composting fan. In theory, and in non-RV applications. But my thoughts on putting one in an RV came to an abrupt halt when I read some of the negative comments about them on any and all RV forums, then thought about the resale value of my RV plummeting to near zero. Sometimes the market governs my actions.
As Joan reminds us, YMMV.
As a wild guess based on looking up the weight of a square 35 gallon water tank- 15#, or two gallons of water.
I've seen nothing but negative comments about composting toilets on nearly every RV related forum I read, but oddly enough, almost always from people who haven't owned and used them. Those who actually tried it seemed amazed at how well it worked for them despite some initial skepticism.
As much knowledge as there is on this forum, it might not be the best place to seek advice on this particular subject.
Steve
I've seen nothing but negative comments about composting toilets on nearly every RV related forum I read, but oddly enough, almost always from people who haven't owned and used them. Those who actually tried it seemed amazed at how well it worked for them despite some initial skepticism. Steve
When and if I ever conclude they work as advertised I will install one in a NY minute. After >75000 RV miles and many hundreds, maybe a thousand dumps, I AM READY! 😎 My 44 foot tag axle Tiffin Bus gave me close to a week before I had to dump for the two of us. Our much smaller LD black tank, not so much.
Bob,
Not even a week in that 44ft beast? At least with its 65000 GCWR, towing a honeywagon is an option.
Steve
We have towed a 2002 Honda CRV since acquisition in Oct 2012. It's very intimidating at first, but one quickly learns the ropes. The Ford E450 handles the toad effortlessly.
We have towed a 2002 Honda CRV since acquisition in Oct 2012. It's very intimidating at first, but one quickly learns the ropes. The Ford E450 handles the toad effortlessly. We love the convenience of a toad ( especially when we travel together). We have the hookup and disconnect down to a science. Someone else here referred to the toad as a "rolling storage shed". I really love that description! We use it to carry the bikes (inside), kennels, helmets, and a few misc things. We removed the larger of the 2 seats to make more room for the bikes.
This is my set-up. The CR-V has lots of space for storage, and I do put my bike "inside." :-)