Have been thinking about adding Steer Safe to our 2015 MB because of the liveliness of the steering caused by road imperfections and concern about what might happen with a front tire failure. Looked at some of the old files but did not find much so wondered about the current thinking and experience with these items. Would appreciate you thoughts and experience. Thanks
Ian
"Silver Fox"
Seattle
Had ours installed at Good Sam Ralley in Phoenix in 2011 and my wife loves it.
Just my experience: I had Steer Safe (http://www.steersafe.com) installed five or six years ago by the manufacturer in Deming, NM. The difference in handling was not noticeable, and the klugy clamped-on hardware looked like a potential failure point. I had it taken off last month at Henderson's Line-Up in Grants Pass, OR. They replaced it with a Safe-T-Plus (http://www.safe-t-plus.com) unit.
The difference, as I understand it: Steer Safe is just some big springs that try to center the steering gear. Safe-T-Plus is essentially a spring-loaded shock absorber that not only exerts centering force, but soaks up sudden changes in steering direction (e.g., "bump steer") while not interfering with normal steering.
Now, I wish I could offer a direct comparison based on before-and-after driving, but I had Henderson's install beefed-up front and rear anti-sway bars and new Koni shocks at the same time they added the Safe-T-Plus, so many things changed. The rig is noticeably less vulnerable to sidewinds and passing trucks, but I can't say that the Safe-T-Plus is solely responsible; probably it's a combination of all the enhancements I had made.
What I can say is this: in my experience, Steer Safe made little if any difference in handling; and from an engineering standpoint, Safe-T-Plus looks like a better solution. But that's just one man's opinion, so take it with a grain of salt. :-)
Have been thinking about adding Steer Safe to our 2015 MB because of the liveliness of the steering caused by road imperfections and concern about what might happen with a front tire failure. Looked at some of the old files but did not find much so wondered about the current thinking and experience with these items. Would appreciate you thoughts and experience.
Andy's experience sums it up well.
I have remove three Steer Safes from various LD, over the years, due to broken springs and other failed hardware.
When one of the big springs breaks, usually due to rust, the steering will constantly pull to one side until the spring is replaced or the whole unit removed. IMO - thumbs down.
A Safe-t-plus is basically a hydraulic stabilizer, much like the one that comes on all E350/E450s, which has in addition, two internal springs that, once properly adjusted, help keep the steering centered.
Many times the attachment to the tie rod will slip and cause the steering to pull to one side, until it is readjusted.
I marked the tie rod so that if it slips, it can be visually detected. Do have the clamps check regularly for proper torque.
The installation of a Safe-T-Steer is a one-way trip since the stock stabilizer is removed and new mount for the Sate-T-Plus is weld on. You can't go back to stock, once done.
If your steering does not feel centered and stable, the first thing to check is the front steering and suspension condition and alignment.Worn parts or too little caster will allow wandering. Proper caster is extremely important in keeping the steering centered and stable.
The E450 has a very powerful hydraulic enhanced steering system. Can't say I have ever felt like it was not strong enough to handle the roughest road conditions or whatever the front tires run into. It's a lot stronger than any set of added-on small springs.
I would suspect the addition of larger front and back sway bars would have a more positive effect on steering and handling, compared to either a Steer Safe or Safe-T-Plus.
Larry
I was just going to post a question on this subject. Glad to see someone has already started this conversation. Jun. 2 I had my 2006 27'RB front end alignment. Drove it and all seemed ok. Then I drove down to the Mother Ship on June 20 to have something checked out. Going there was fine. Coming back and half way home I could not believe how rough the rig was riding. Probably about a mile or so. After that, it was ok. Rough road, probably but the shaking was so bad that when I got home & went inside the rig, the TV had came off the holder. The screw was on the floor near drivers side ! That's really crazy. Has Anyone ever experienced this? or experienced rough riding? Tires are new. Could it be shocks? Is Bilstein Shocks the best as I've read? or are they a rough ride? I see Andy got Koni. Hope I can find some info as I want to take a trip to OR. this month. Also if anyone lives in the San Fernando Valley who may know of a place or someone to have this checked out. Thanks everyone..
Jo
2006 27'RB
We had Henderson put Saf-T-Steer on our '92, along with some other goodies, as Andy had. The handling improved a great deal. The shocks and sway bars made a big impact.
Specifically the steering us much less loosy-goosy. Of course the folks at Henderson adjusted the steering box to be a bit tighter at the same time, so that may be the solution I am feeling. The Saf-T-Steer ensures the wheel returns to center very well, but there is no noticeable increase in the effort needed to turn the wheel. Wander is gone, on a road that is flat I can go along in a straight line without having to correct the wheel. All that is nice, but the cost is pretty steep. I coulda done fine without, but don't tell my wife. Many people find the "bump steer" a bigger issue than I do. The benefit in a front tire blowout? I hope not to ever experience.
I would not put any other steering system on, but this is a pricey one. Can't say I consider it an essential.
It has been a few years, but we have direct experience with Steer-Safe a few thousand miles with the stock Ford steering hydraulic dampener and 15,000 miles with one installed.
Note that some shops do like to weld on a bracket to mount the Steer Safe, some do not. We did not have a bracket welded on. I substituted a torque check of the mounting clamp nuts every few thousand miles or so. I remember having to tighten them once, at which time I installed a second set of nuts as a double lock. Never had to tighten them again. Steer safe provided a definite improvement in directional stability and almost eliminated the 'Bump Steer' that occurred when encountering a bump during cornering in our E350 Class C Born Free. We were pleased with the steering of the Born Free, which also had the then basic rear Air Bags to help control sway.
After a few thousand miles on our new 2001 E-450 Lazy Daze mid bath, we took it to Henderson's for their recommended treatment to improve overall steering. It displayed both 'rut wander' and 'bump steer' and it was unpleasant in cross winds and when passed by the 18 wheelers. Loading was on the button fore and aft and side to side was within 500 pounds. We typically ran 2000 pounds below MTGW. Hendersons installed a silver Safe-T-Plus in lieu of the White one I had installed. Their experience was that the White unit did not have enough force to adequately control the steering of the E450. They also tightened the Ford steering box tolerances and installed an IPD rear Sway Bar and we had their first installation of their 'Super Steer' rear track bar. (They used their fotos of our install for their brochure.) They left our Bilstein Shocks alone - they were not the 'comfort' models and I liked their control. Directional stability was about as good as one could hope for. The passing of overtaking 18 wheelers was reduced to our noticing them as they passed the driver's side window. Steering correction was no longer needed. Cornering became an issue of where we wanted to place the RV in the lane, rather than wondering if we could keep it between the lane markers. 'Bunp Steer', however, was not eliminated. When experiencing a rolling bump during a corner, it still resulted in some increased steering wheel turning force being required. It was about half on what we had been experiencing and definitely not as good as we experienced with the Steer Safe. Also, our revised chassis suspension now had a noticeable 'push' in level corners. The power steering took care of the steering wheel force and the primary manifestation was increased outer front tire noise in a corner. This in 30 to 50 mph corner speed. It was not bad, just noticeable. (Our front tire pressure was per the Michelin chart for the heaviest front wheel static actual load weight and is within the Ford limits.) We were happy enough, though, so we decided to leave well enough alone.
That turned out to be the right choice, as after a few more years we accomplished our RV travel goals and sold our Mid Bath to a family who was moving to a later model Lazy Daze. I'd say that without qualification, Henderson's knows what they are doing and is without peer at accomplishing objectives for a customer. (Kinda like Lazy Daze, perhaps not including End Caps and Paint Bubbles.)
'Best,
Don McGlothlen,
ex 2001 LD Mid Bath
Is Bilstein Shocks the best as I've read? or are they a rough ride? I see Andy got Koni. Hope I can find some info as I want to take a trip to OR. this month. Also if anyone lives in the San Fernando Valley who may know of a place or someone to have this checked out. Thanks everyone..
Jo
2006 27'RB
We had the Koni FSD shocks installed on ours just about a month ago. We had the original Ford shocks which had 53K on them. No modifications to suspension or any other mods to steering. In our view the Konis do smooth the ride and were worth the cost. Wish we had done it a long time ago.
We used All Wheel in Redding, CA and in my view, having used both, they are quite comparable to Henderson's in Grants Pass.
Other than that I don't have an answer for the rough ride.
Jim
We had the Koni FSD shocks installed on ours just about a month ago. We had the original Ford shocks which had 53K on them. No modifications to suspension or any other mods to steering. In our view the Konis do smooth the ride and were worth the cost. Wish we had done it a long time ago.
We used All Wheel in Redding, CA and in my view, having used both, they are quite comparable to Henderson's in Grants Pass.
Other than that I don't have an answer for the rough ride.
Jim
Hi Jim,
Thanks for the info on the shocks. Im going to take the LD over to a shop in San Gabriel, CA. It was recommended from a guy on the LD site here and Vince from LD told him about it. I want them to check everything out. Like I mentioned in my last post "The shaking was so bad that when I got home & went inside the rig, the TV had came off the holder." Afterreading some of the post I noticed where Larry had a similar experience. Larry stated on Jan. 2011 "A few weeks ago, we where driving up I-5 when we hit a section of rough road that caused the LD to start rocking violently side to side, something we have never experienced." Mine was not rocking side to side, but it was "Violently shaking". Maybe the same thing. Larry mentioned in his post that he found the top shock bushing was torn in half. He also mentioned tighting the screw on top but said it was a bitch.. my words.. to reach. :( Now this was with Bilstein Shocks. I have no idea what shocks I have. Im guessing they are the original ones on the 2006 LD 27' with 41,500 miles on it. I'm taking her in next week. Thanks again Jim..
JO
Don, that's a heckuva write up. Thanks for sharing your knowledgeable experience! I wonder if you, or others, might offer some insight to what Paul mentioned as "loosey goosey" steering.
Not being familiar with the handling characteristics of the Ford E450 (or class C RV for that matter), initially I was surprised by the "sloppy" steering in that when traveling down the road, the steering wheel has ~ 1/16 or so of play to either side of center.
The steering doesn't pull to either side when braking, front tires show no abnormal wear (with ~ 20k miles on them), there's no "clunking" or "rattle" that's normally associated with ball joint failure and the steering doesn't display the "slop" that occurs anywhere throughout the turning radius that usually comes with stripped tie rods. So I wonder if this "loosey goosey" steering is inherent to the E450 given that it was designed to be used with long, heavy payloads where you wouldn't necessarily want "tight" steering (as with smaller vehicles)? My experience thus far has been with F series (2wd & 4wd) and they do not exhibit this.
I haven't given jacked up the front end for a detailed inspection, but will be doing so in the near future. Experience and insight is greatly appreciated...oh and she has 86k on the clock.
Igoslow,
Mine is a 92 e350, so that's a little difference to most others. "Loosely goosey" is a technical term :) I had to move the wheel about an eighth of a turn before anything happened. It was like driving a 65 Buick. Going down the road I was sawing back and forth on the wheel to keep between the lines. When turning, the steering wheel returned to center, more or less, most of the time. The input to steering was very soft. Thus, side winds and bow waves from passing trucks required a lot of steering input to keep going in a straight line. Wander is another characteristic. At least that's my definition. And no, my 97 nor 05 F350 has none of this. It reminded me of a 68 F500 I used to drive that had similar steering.
A big part of getting steering right is weight distribution. Plenty of threads here about that. Another is proper tire inflation, based on the weight per wheel. Also plenty here on that. In my case I ran with full tire pressure, and the rear end sway and waggle (more tech talk) was pronounced. Went to the Michelin inflation table and let out air, and the difference was pronounced. My weight distribution was acceptable, so it really impressed on me the importance of proper tire inflation.
all my suspension and alignment was up to spec. The steering box needed a little tightening. The SafeTSteer helped then, and the Konis, and sway bar were magic.
"The SafeTSteer helped then..."
----
AFAIK, the two steering stabilizer units that fit the E-450 (andE-350) Ford chassis are the Safe-T-Plus and the SteerSafe. Each is a different technology, but it's easy to see how the two names can meld themselves into a whole new, but non-existent, product! ;)
Yes, your right. Safe T Plus Steering Control is the correct name according to my invoice. Long hot day.
I have the RV Consumer Group database and they show that the 31 foot version of Lazy Daze may not need any steering help. They do show the other models needing it as has been reported in this thread. Can any owners of a 31 footer chime in on their experience?
Just a cautionary note about comparing shocks: one is rarely in a position to do it fairly, because the normal situation is to replace old shocks with new ones.
I can't count the number of times I've read "I replaced Brand X shocks with Brand Y, and wow--what a difference! Brand Y rocks!" The truth is that replacing those old Brand X shocks with new Brand X shocks would probably have resulted in just as much improvement. But since almost nobody replaces new shocks with new shocks of a different brand, we can't trust our comparisons.
That includes me. I recently bought Koni FSD shocks to replace Bilsteins that had 60,000 miles on them. Does the coach ride and handle better? Yes, somewhat. Is it because the Konis are superior? I can't honestly say. I got them on the recommendation of a knowledgable friend, but comparing twelve-year-old shocks with brand new ones is just not meaningful.
When I bought my used Lazy Daze and had several upgrades done here in Las Cruces, the mobile RV service I use recommended a Steer Safe.
Steer Safe is installed on the vehicle’s front steering arms and clamps on to the front axle. No welding is required. It’s simply bolted on. Steer Safe Stabilizer’s patented oscillatable fulcrum bar makes it the only true steering stabilizer on the market. It provides up to 400 pounds of preset tension on each front wheel working against any outside forces, helping to keep the front wheels pointed straight, even in a blowout situation.
Unlike hydraulic shock absorber stabilizers that hook onto a vehicle’s tie rod, Steer Safe offers protection from the front wheels to the steering gear box. No extra steering effort is required lessening driver fatigue. Maintenance is not required because Steer Safe is equipped with Delrin bearings which never require servicing.
Larry (the RV guy) has been in the business for over twenty years, and is quite honest (as well as being an excellent technician.) In my opinion, I'm quite happy I opted for the add-on as it adds another layer of safety (like a TPMS), and I feel adds steering stability.
It surprises me somewhat to read the negative opinions of some when referring to the system. Here are some other reviews (although older):
Steer Safe - iRV2 Forums (http://www.irv2.com/forums/f115/steer-safe-113696.html)
As with anything else in life, your experience may vary.
Have been thinking about adding Steer Safe to our 2015 MB because of the liveliness of the steering caused by road imperfections and concern about what might happen with a front tire failure. Would appreciate you thoughts and experience.
One of LDy Lulubelle's previous families had added a Safe-T-Plus. I originally thought my difficulties were due to being a novice driving something so big, but eventually realized she needed alignment (she was pulling to the right & tire wear was pointed out at the Escapees Boot Camp in March 2015); alignment was done at Mid-Way Ford in Kansas City. Mid-Way said they couldn't do a proper alignment with the stabilizer (they seemed to be of the same mind as the Mothership is about Eternabond), & fortunately it wasn't welded on, so off it came. Overtime it seemed like she was pulling to the left; I had her realigned at Merle Kelly Ford in Chanute, KS, when I was having some other work done at the nearby KS RV Center. Jake, the service manager at Merle Kelly showed my that bolts hadn't been tightened properly, which was why the alignment was out of whack (sorry, I can't figure out how to move the video he showed me--or even a still photo--from my mail to here :-[ duh ).
Anyway, long story ends with LDy Lulubelle drives great now, I don't feel a need for the stabilizer, and after reading the various discussions, it will probably just remain in my stash of stuff out at the farm, in case of a future change of heart. YMMV Good luck with the decision process.
Lynne
One of LDy Lulubelle's previous families had added a Safe-T-Plus.
alignment was done at Mid-Way Ford in Kansas City. Mid-Way said they couldn't do a proper alignment with the stabilizer (they seemed to be of the same mind as the Mothership is about Eternabond), & fortunately it wasn't welded on, so off it came. [/quoteOne of LDy Lulubelle's previous families had added a Safe-T-Plus.
alignment was done at Mid-Way Ford in Kansas City. Mid-Way said they couldn't do a proper alignment with the stabilizer (they seemed to be of the same mind as the Mothership is about Eternabond), & fortunately it wasn't welded on, so off it came.
The tech didn't understand how the Safe T Plus works. It doesn't effect the alignment at all.
It's main function is to forcefully center the steering. It also has a stabilizer, a shock-like device that dampens some of the steering impacts before they reach the steering box, the most fragile part of the steering system.
If it caused problems, while being aligned, simply loosening the clamps, on the drag link, would temporarily disconnect the Safe T Plus.
It would need to be adjusted and tightened afterwards, simple to do if you understand how it works.
Larry
Before replacing any of your shocks, make sure the top bushings are good and tight.
All shocks, no matter the make, have twin bushings on the top of each shock. The bushings compress over time and get loose. It doesn't matter if the bushings are rubber or polyurethane, they all compress.
The result is limited damping and the feeling that the shocks are bad. The front suspension has very limited suspension travel and is sensitive to loose bushings. A little slop is very noticeable.
A part of the problem is that the bushings are not that large, being the same size used on some passenger car shocks.
Bushings that will last the life of a car can loosen quickly, when used on a 14,000 pound RV.
Many LDs. with Factory installed Bilsteins, have suffer blown bushings on the front, driver's side bushing,
My guess is they were never tightened fully at the Mothership, due to the difficulty of accessing the top nut.
At first glance, it looks impossible but it can be done.
The trick is to use an open end wrench on the top nut and hold it still while rotating the body of the shock. Most shocks have a narrow, hex shape near the top of the shock. A narrow valve-adjustment wrench or a thin bicycle wrench both work.
Shock bushings | Flickr (https://www.flickr.com/photos/lwade/sets/72157631188332896/)
If the shocks have more than 30,000 miles on them, give tightening a try, good chance you will feel a difference.
Larry
Many of the Class A gas rigs are offering Sumo Springs for better stabilization. Has anyone installed these on their LD?
Larry, your notes on shock bushings and excellent photos on Flickr are exactly why this is the best forum ever, and you are an MVP contributor. Thank you.
Thanks Larry for the info and photos.
Won't need to put the knowledge to use for a while, but it's good to know its there when I need it.
Kent
"The tech didn't understand how the Safe T Plus works. It doesn't effect the alignment at all.
It's main function is to forcefully center the steering. It also has a stabilizer, a shock-like device that dampens some of the steering impacts before they reach the steering box, the most fragile part of the steering system.
If it caused problems, while being aligned, simply loosening the clamps, on the drag link, would temporarily disconnect the Safe T Plus.
It would need to be adjusted and tightened afterwards, simple to do if you understand how it works.
Larry"
Thx, Larry
Your info confirms, after my experience with Merle Kelly Ford in Chanute, KS, that I won't be returning to Mid-Way Ford in Kansas City for service.
Lynne
FWIW
We bought our '89 TK with Steer Safe or Steer Straight already installed. I thought the paperwork said Steer Straight but I'm frequently known to be wrong :-). The previous owner had a front tire blowout and almost lost control. I have nothing to compare ours to but I've had three front tires blow out at 50+ MPH and never had trouble holding the wheels straight. The springs do clank on turns but we can put up with that.
Karen
"The trick is to use an open end wrench on the top nut and hold it still while rotating the body of the shock. Most shocks have a narrow, hex shape near the top of the shock. A narrow valve-adjustment wrench or a thin bicycle wrench both work."
---
Larry, the body of the shock rotates counterclockwise to tighten (while the wrench is holding the nut), yes? (Yes, I'm well aware of the "righty, tighty, lefty, loosey" reminder, but since I have perception issues, just making sure!)
---
Larry, the body of the shock rotates counterclockwise to tighten (while the wrench is holding the nut), yes? (Yes, I'm well aware of the "righty, tighty, lefty, loosey" reminder, but since I have perception issues, just making sure!)
With the top nut held still, rotate the body of the shock counterclockwise , to tighten the bushing.
Larry
Thanks, Larry!
Just returned from a trip in our 2006 23.5' Rear TK, and have finally decided to find out the cure for increased "rocking" of the rear end mass on turns and when passing or getting passed by large trucks.
I have stock suspension (20k miles) with Michelin XPS RIB tires, which I really like. The rocking is something I've noticed in the last few thousand miles. Can someone recommend sway bars that have worked well for them, if this sounds like the problem? I would also be open to shock absorber recommendations, as well as anything else that could help with my problem.
Tire wear has been even all around. I run 70 pounds rear, 60 pounds front based on 8k pounds in the rear and 4k pounds in front, loaded.
Along with recommending hardware, I'd appreciate any nearby shop recommendations (I live in NE Long Beach, near the 605/405 freeway junction). Finding a nearby expert would be at least half the battle! Thanks.
lamoflb,
I had my 26-½ MB in to Hendersons where they installed a Roadmaster bar front and rear. The rear is 1.5", the front is 1.4" dia.
This put an end to the rocking, which is what I call the motion that occurs when the motor home moves off its vertical axis. If viewed from the rear end, the top of the coach is moving side to side while the wheels are staying in one place or track. Usually felt when cornering into driveways.
Sorry to be too specific, but want to be sure we are talking about the same thing.
You coach is shorter, I don't know if your's would require a different bar.
LAMOFLB I should have also taken a photo of the Konis while under there. But alas. They are Koni FSB if I recall the designation correctly. Also help with that rocking, pogo sticking and swaying. The ride with these installed was not noticeably more stiff than the 25 year old stock shocks , until you start hitting rough roads, then I notice the wheels stay in contact with the road better, and yes, the ride is more firm. But not too much so, the cabinets stay closed, etc.
Hope that helps.
The first things I'd check before adding aftermarket products:
1. The four-corner weight of the rig. TK's are difficult to overload because they usually have a lot more capacity between the "loaded" weight and the gvwr and the fact that there's not that much compartment space, but .....
2. The side-to-side weight distribution; the factory acknowledged that there was a 200 pound discrepancy between the right and left side weights, the passenger side being heavier due to the placement of the refrigerator, the batteries, and the generator on that side. When I weighed my TK (some years ago), I emptied all the compartments and the tanks (except propane), and the passenger side was 500 pounds heavier than the driver's side. When I reported this to LD, Steve's advice was, "Drive with a full water tank." :o
3. The condition of your shocks. Are they worn, loose, boots torn, bushings gone?
If all of the above checks out, you might want to check Roadmaster Inc. for front and rear anti-sway bars and even a steering stabilizer. These links will guide you to the information. (Note the "Vehicle Guide"; last link.)
Roadmaster Inc. - Tow Bars, Braking Systems & RV Accessories (http://roadmasterinc.com/products/rss/suspension_benefits.html)
Roadmaster Inc. - Tow Bars, Braking Systems & RV Accessories (http://roadmasterinc.com/products/rss/reflex.html)
Roadmaster Inc. - Tow Bars, Braking Systems & RV Accessories (http://roadmasterinc.com/vehicle_guide/)
As ever, YMMV.
Lamoflb, when you weigh your rig, as Joan recommends, check your tire pressure. I originally ran tires at near full pressure, 75psi In my brand new tires. I weighed my rig after a few hundred miles, and compared to the Michelin Load and Inflation (http://www.michelintruck.com/reference-materials/manuals-bulletins-and-warranties/load-and-inflation-tables/#/) table, and found I should have been running 60 and 65 psi.
I aired down, and the sway and rocking improved dramatically. This was a step improvement that felt roughly equal to the improvement I got spending a bundle on sway bars and shocks.
Yet another mod needed/recommended to a $100,000 Rig that rolls off the lot (slowly).
I admit to stage fright and sticker shock at the list of commonly added items to a new rig.
Steer safe, inverters, bypass valves, etc, it's even up to me to get my new rig aligned before I use it.
Yes Todd, understandable. Though I think many many people drive em as they are. But I for one, like to see what I can do to "improve" it. Of course, my rig is 24 years old, so I bought it quite a bit under the sticker price ;)
I was perusing a forum on other brands of class C, and was struck by the similarity of comments about the E450 handling. Its not only an LD problem, and they may be correct in their assertion that they build coaches that handle better than other brands. We are asking a lot of a chassis carrying 6-7 tons to handle less like a truck!
So much of what I spend is for me like putting headers on my old 66 Mustang!
Just returned from a trip in our 2006 23.5' Rear TK, and have finally decided to find out the cure for increased "rocking" of the rear end mass on turns and when passing or getting passed by large trucks."
As I have mentioned before, loose top shock bushings will allow rocking.
I find most aftermarket shocks, on LDs, have loose top bushings. Tightening a loose set will dramaticly improve the ride quality.
On an older rig, the stock sway bar bushings are normally worn and need replacement. Replacing them with polyurethane bushings will add to the improvement. This is an inexpensive improvement, within the range of a shade tree mechanic.
My internet connection is very slow so search for links and photos, under my user name, on to find more information on shock and sway bar bushings.
One thought on heavy duty sway bars, they reduce side to side sway by restricting the suspension travel. Each wheel is less able to respond to the road surface independently. Along with less sway comes a harsher ride. No such thing as a free lunch.
In the fog, on the Oregon coast.
Larry
"...it's even up to me to get my new rig aligned before I use it."
There are soooo many items that we add to our LD's AFTER they leave the lot.
I've had many people question me on why LD didn't install a TPMS on my rig or why I had to have the front end aligned.
The simple answer is BECAUSE (the answer my Mother used to give me when I asked WHY I had to do someting).
BECAUSE Lazy Daze makes Coaches not trucks. BECAUSE Ford makes Trucks not Coaches.
There is a limit to what each company can do. If we WANT the quality we EXPECT from either company, it seems fair that WE should take on the burden to equalize what either company can't do.
If I want the PERFECT motorhome, in this case a LD, then I am more than willing to fill in the gap if I can. If I can't compromise and find the middle ground, then maybe I don't really want it.
My Grandfather once asked me if I wanted something in particular. I answered, "I guess so". His response to me, "Don't be guessin'".
I learned then and there. If I want something, I need to speak up. If what I want needs a bit of tweaking to perfect it, then so be it.
Grab it with both hands and hold on tight. Some things only come around once in a lifetime. Better get it while you can.
I think we all know the response LD would give us if we balked at having to do something ourselves. "Take it or leave it". But isn't that a lot of why we respect them so much?
Just sayin'
Kent
"On an older rig, the stock sway bar bushings are normally worn and need replacement. Replacing them with polyurethane bushings will add to the improvement. This is an inexpensive improvement, within the range of a shade tree mechanic."
----
My 2003 definitely qualifies as an "older rig", particularly since it has almost 100k on it, but lacking any nearby shade trees, I had the service shop replace the bushings on the rig's front anti-sway bar about a month ago.
The anti-sway bars on my TK are IPDs; Roadmaster bought the company a few years ago. (Roadmaster's customer service is very helpful and responsive.) The IPD anti-sway bars and the current Roadmaster product are very similar; the RV shop had a RM polyurethane bushing "kit" on hand and used that to replace the original, trashed bushings. (Which were also polyurethane, but after that much time and miles, just gave out. I know the feeling.)
After 13 years and over 96k, the bushings (on the front; the rear was OK) were shot; compressed or shredded, and one was missing. The bushing kit was $70; the replacement labor charge was $200, or roughly an hour and 45 minutes of "under the rig with many wrenches" work. (These are Bay Area California prices; YPMV.) An adjustment of the Safe-T-Plus was also done at additional cost.
Note: With the exception of factory-installed Bilsteins, I did not add or change any stock suspension parts until I had driven the motorhome over 5000 miles and experienced the handling characteristics with varied road conditions. Many owners of different models of all ages make no changes to the suspension at all, and are perfectly happy with how the rig drives and handles. My choices were based on my preferences, and, being familiar with trucks, I always kept in mind that this is a truck.
As ever, YMMV.
Any recommendations on a shop versed in installation of sway bars, shocks and other suspension-related work? I live near the Long Beach/Orange County line near the 605/405 junction. I hate to rely on on-line reviews, and would much rather benefit from positive experiences of other Lazy Daze owners! Thanks.
Not exactly on your territory, but you might want to call Redlands RV and Truck Center. (Google their site address.)
Living in Long Beach myself I am familiar with three service centers in town.
That being said I am not sure they can do what you need them to do but they may point you in the right direction.
Long Beah auto clinic. Take all my cars there. Very honest. Great service and resonable prices: 562 427-7697 John is the owners (Larry) son and pretty much runs the show. Long Beach Blvd between Spring and the 405.
Seaport Tires 562 426-5544 Atlantic near Willow L.B. across the street from Memorial Hospital (formerly Suddith Tires-I learned about LD at Suddith...have been getting tires there for 45 years) The new owners are nice and knowledgable. They have a truck center on the site so maybe they can help out.
Caruso Ford 562 627-5100 3500 Cherry in LB This is the only Ford in my area that services RV's. They have aligned my front end and done regular maintenance since I got the LD last October. They may be able to help you as well.
We used to go to Bill Williams Welding 1735 Santa Fe LB 562 432-5421 for welding jobs but not certain what else they do.
That's about all I've got. Good luck and see you on the beach.
Kent
Just found this video on how you adjust the Safety Plus. Gives insight into the product.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-pYpPHqIzw&feature=youtu.be
And here is the installation video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysabH_SCVJM
Had a 1.5" Roadmaster sway bar installed on my 2006 23.5' rear TK, and it made a substantial improvement in the side-to-side sway problem I had been experiencing.
The bar was substantially heavier than the stock bar, and the end links on the old bar were actually noticeably bent when removed! Don't know if the swaying caused the bends, or the bends contributed to the swaying. Whatever the cause, the problem was reduced by about 90%, and I consider the improvement well worth the cost.
I also had the installer at American RV in Orange, CA check the shocks - mounting was tight on both, and no leaks were found. Since the coach only has 20,000 miles on it, I'll wait to consider additional mods (shocks, front bar, stabilizer) until I get some more experience driving the rig on our next trip.
Thanks to all for your suggestions and assistance. This forum is great!
With 7000 miles on our 2015 27 MB we had the alignment done by a truck shop. This improved our steering, but the real improvement was the installation of a Roadmaster Sway bar, a 1 3/8 inch unit instead of the 3/4 inch unit which was the stock unit furnished by Ford. Really makes a big difference. We just got home from a 2000 mile trip thru Montana, Yellowstone, Idaho and back to Seattle. Going thru Idaho we had high gusty winds, probably 25 mph or so. We had very little sway and the rig was much less tiring to drive. Next year we may add a rear sway bar.
Ian Walker
"Silver Fox"
I personally can't figure out how a company can sell something that drives mediocre at best.
I like the Idea of the attention to detail during the build, but how much longer can the mother ship continue
to build without changing a thing to keep up with new technology.
How about taking some baby steps like LED lights on the awning. I truly believe that LD is the only company
on the planet that doesn't at least offer a lighted awning.
I really like everything the company stands for but the interior has not been changed in like 15 years or more.
Every time i try to talk my wife into looking at LD again she say's,. have they changed the interior since we looked 5 years ago.
Then she say's do you forget that I hated the way it drove on the test drive, i could hardly keep it in the lane on the freeway at 65. It just seemed to constantly wander back and forth.
I wish they would build the 27 MB on the new ford f 550 truck chassis. I think it would drive nice on the highway and then you could order with 4x4 for winter driving or boon docking.
I'm sorry to be complaining, its impossible to find a RV around 27' long with supper good build quality and drives solid
on the highway for some long distance driving.
We also live in Long Beach and want a new RV for driving back and forth to our 2nd home in Idaho.
We usually do it in 2 days 8 hours each day and stay in the RV along the way.
Last time we looked at LD 5 years ago we ended up with a Pleasure way sprinter. It drives really nice. Set the cruise for 75
one hand on the wheel and its like your driving your car.
There is one problem, its really tight in that thing at night. Also because its small we don't seem to use it to camp in once were
up in Idaho. We have beautiful camping all around us up there but don't take advantage because its too small.
I think we could live with the fact that the interior hasn't changed since 1990. I could also live with the fact that no matter how
nice I ask or how much I'm willing to pay they wont change or add anything. If the thing would just drive super nice when you pick it up. I guess the reality is, they need to put the outdated poor handling E 450 out to pasture.
Its not just LD, all the RV's on the E450 handle poorly when there loaded.
Any suggestions?
I personally can't figure out how a company can sell something that drives mediocre at best.
I like the Idea of the attention to detail during the build, but how much longer can the mother ship continue
to build without changing a thing to keep up with new technology.
How about taking some baby steps like LED lights on the awning. I truly believe that LD is the only company
on the planet that doesn't at least offer a lighted awning.
I really like everything the company stands for but the interior has not been changed in like 15 years or more.
Every time i try to talk my wife into looking at LD again she say's,. have they changed the interior since we looked 5 years ago.
Then she say's do you forget that I hated the way it drove on the test drive, i could hardly keep it in the lane on the freeway at 65. It just seemed to constantly wander back and forth.
I wish they would build the 27 MB on the new ford f 550 truck chassis. I think it would drive nice on the highway and then you could order with 4x4 for winter driving or boon docking.
I'm sorry to be complaining, its impossible to find a RV around 27' long with supper good build quality and drives solid
on the highway for some long distance driving.
We also live in Long Beach and want a new RV for driving back and forth to our 2nd home in Idaho.
We usually do it in 2 days 8 hours each day and stay in the RV along the way.
Last time we looked at LD 5 years ago we ended up with a Pleasure way sprinter. It drives really nice. Set the cruise for 75
one hand on the wheel and its like your driving your car.
There is one problem, its really tight in that thing at night. Also because its small we don't seem to use it to camp in once were
up in Idaho. We have beautiful camping all around us up there but don't take advantage because its too small.
I think we could live with the fact that the interior hasn't changed since 1990. I could also live with the fact that no matter how
nice I ask or how much I'm willing to pay they wont change or add anything. If the thing would just drive super nice when you pick it up. I guess the reality is, they need to put the outdated poor handling E 450 out to pasture.
Its not just LD, all the RV's on the E450 handle poorly when there loaded.
Any suggestions?
Genze (is that your name?), I think you have answered most of your complaints in that you understand that Lazy Daze management (Steve Newton) pretty much does what it/he wants and not much you or we say will change that attitude. That said, LD has improved mechanical items over the years, upgrading them to more modern items, sometimes after listening to their customers. There are a handful of handling accessories that LD owners have added to their rigs which have (or have not) improved handling. Searching this forum will lead you to some comments. Looks like you are just going to have to grin and bear it, my friend. <grin>
Chris
Thanks for your response to GENZE Chris... I would not have been so kind! :-X
I personally can't figure out how a company can sell something that drives mediocre at best.
How about taking some baby steps like LED lights on the awning. I truly believe that LD is the only company
on the planet that doesn't at least offer a lighted awning.
I really like everything the company stands for but the interior has not been changed in like 15 years or more.
I'm sorry to be complaining, its impossible to find a RV around 27' long with supper good build quality and drives solid
on the highway for some long distance driving.ne hand on the wheel and its like your driving your car.
I think we could live with the fact that the interior hasn't changed since 1990. f the thing would just drive super nice when you pick it up. I guess the reality is, they need to put the outdated poor handling E450 out to pasture.
If you expect a big RV to drive like a car or a van, you will be disappointed in any of them.
Many new E450 drivers complain about the 'wandering' and it is even mentioned in the LD Factory Owner's Manual.
It takes a couple thousand miles to get use to but once you do , it becomes normal.
This suspension has been used in millions of Fords and still used in the Ford Super-Duty pickups, there is no stronger front suspension in current production. It's what 2WD race trucks have used, in desert racing, for decades.
You can also do what many here have done, spend a few thousand on suspension enhancements at Hendersons, in Oregon.
Henderson's Line-Up Brake & RV Inc. (http://www.hendersonslineup.com)
If you dislike the way an E450 Drives, try a F53 Ford Class A chassis. Henderson has made a fortune with Class A add-ons.
There are companies that build RVs, using pickup cabs. You might try searching for them.
Don't be surprised that when your new F-Series Ford RV is delivered, it has the same Twin-I Beam suspension as the E450.
Or you may get a straight front axle, a very definite downgrade in ride and handling.
A negative about using a pickup chassis is that they are several feet longer than a comparable Class C.
As for the "old and dated" floorplans, similar floorpans are sold by other RV manufacturers but they don't have the advantage of having tweaked and adjusted the floorplans for decades, to get every usable inch out of the coach.
You really need to see LDs from different vintages to realize how much they have changed each floorplan, through the years.
As for LED lights on an awning, is is that really much of an upgrade?
That's more of an after-market addition. All awnings have tracks for hanging awning lights, they come in dozens of styles.
As much as folks complain about the E450, it has turned out to be an exceptionally dependable chassis, the result of many years of development and production.
Larry
There is no shortage of models of RV's of all sizes and capacities to choose from. A little something for everyone's taste and pocketbook. On that subject, I was just removing the mailing labels from a zillion years of saved magazine (mostly RV and cooking ones), and came across an issue from 2009 by FMCA. It showed one of the "new"-style RV's on the Sprinter diesel chassis.
For five pages, it extolls the wondrousness of the unit, and I was scanning like crazy to find the OCCC. Turns out this was a fool's errand. They give the GCVWR (14,530) and a GVWR (11,030), but no OCCC. They go on to say how much the fuel, water, and propane weigh, and then add the caveat "When these tanks are full, you'll want to take care not to overload the coach with clothes, food, and other provisions". But NEVER do they divulge how very little payload there is to actually take such things as "clothes, food, and other provisions" along that you will enjoy using during your outing.
A later taunt tells about how vast the storage capacity is, but then - there's that caveat again - "But keep in mind the coach's weight restrictions when packing.".
The price? Repeating that this is a 2009 magazine, the base price is listed at $104,286.
"Hello, Lazy Daze? Put me on your list!"
Virtual hugs,
Judie
"As for LED lights on an awning, is is that really much of an upgrade? That's more of an after-market addition. All awnings have tracks for hanging awning lights, they come in dozens of styles."
-----
Oh, they do! They do! :D
With a sufficient quantity of LED powered lights, for any and all seasons and occasions, in a huge variety of colors, shapes, and intensities (blinking and/or flashing ones are always fun!) , and hanging, festooned, strung along the ground, or otherwise attached to one's rig, one can illuminate the campground for several dozen yards in all directions! One might attract more than the usual complement of moths, but an upside is that a beckoning "island of light" makes it so much easier to find one's way home after a "social" evening with one's friends around the campfire!
Just a small sample of "light 'em up" sources; go for it! ;)
RV Awning Lights - Multi-Color LEDs for RVs, Campers and Trailers (http://www.boogeylights.com/rv-awning-light-kit.html)
Camper Awning Lights | Camper Parts World (http://www.camperpartsworld.com/CamperAwningLights)
Awning Lights | Outdoor Awning Lights | PartyLights (http://www.partylights.com/Awning-Lights)
Joan
All good points.
I guess even with a few quirky things with the Lazy Daze factory they still build
one of the highest quality Rv's.
It truly is difficult to find a Mfg that doesn't have many customer complaints online.
I guess it is what it is.
And the good point is it will never go out of style. Like a Rolex watch, they havn't changed there submariner watch in 30 years
Maybe I'm crazy. Maybe I'm blind. May be I'm mad 'bout this LD of mine
Wondering 'bout wandering I pause and I think. Have I missed my turn? Did I fall in the drink? Still diving true. Still on my course. Can't get much better could be much worse.
My rig, she drives true. No swerve and no squall. I have no trouble driving her. No not one bit at all.
She's a beauty inside and she's a sight to behold. She's stylish and clean. That'll never get old.
When I walk down her coach from one end to the other, she's rock solid standing with not even a shudder.
I'll dance every day. I'll sing from the mountains. I'll stay up at night thinkin' and countin' all the miles that I've driven all the roads that I've traveled. Eager to drive her a million more miles.
My stalwart LD is my rock and she's steady. No complaints from this Papa of his little baby.
She's sound and she's true. She's the envy of many. Not a thing can be said that will change this old mind.
She's the best from her top from her front to her back. She's the pride of the fleet from this coast to that and that's all I will say about this or 'bout that.
Kent
Kent,
You've got me smiling early this morning. ;D :) ;)
Cynthia
Kent,
Well done.
I tell you, I've done so many web searches. Things like best built C class rv, highest quality rv under 28 feet and every other
way i can think of and you don't come up with much.
Certainly not people talking like Kent about there Rv.
Is there one particular size or model that seems to drive better than the others without any mods. For example, do the
shorter 24' units have less sway maybe because of the weight and maybe less rear overhang?
I'm with you, Kent. Zero complaints regarding the handling, or just about anything else with our 2015 TK.
Thank you, Steve Newton, for selling a quality product without awning LEDs, slides, outdoor entertainment system, tweaker inspired paint job, cardboard cabinetry, "premium TPO roof", etc.
Genze - for a morbidly entertaining experience, try searching RV forums for "punch list".
Steve
Genze,
The great thing about Lazy Daze is the quality first and foremost. After that it's LDO.
When it comes to aftermarket tweaks, the fine folks here have an abundance of experience. We are a very proud group as I'm sure you have discovered.
The old adage (yeah another one)-Ask and you shall receive. Most of the corrective measures done to the LD's here, it appears, have been done to rigs that have added a few miles to their belts. Sway bars and such may be the exception.
I've driven fewer that 6,000 miles in my new RB and have no complaints whatsoever. That being said others minds may very.
To me, 27' is the perfect length. Roomy enough for several travelers but intimate enough for me and my dear wife. The rig handles like a dream. I'm never fatigued after as many as twelve hours with only short breaks in between. My sedan wears on me more after that many miles and it's a sweet ride.
Anyway that's just me. Smile a bit. Join in with us friendly folk and poke around the forum. You will soon find there are fewer complaints about LD's than you might imagine. You must be anxious to climb in one after a Spinter.
Just sayin'
Kent
"Is there one particular size or model that seems to drive better than the others without any mods. For example, do the
shorter 24' units have less sway maybe because of the weight and maybe less rear overhang?"
---
My LD is a 2003 23.5', so I can't speak to the handling characteristics of the larger LDs, with or without aftermarket modifications. I have opinions (hardly a surprise! ;) ), but I can only relate my own experiences (and reasons for initial choice) with the smallest rig in the LD line.
The 24' LD has a wheelbase of 158", and the box is pretty well-matched to the chassis; the rear overhang is well within specs, and there is very little sway or tail-wag.
The small rig (E-450, V-10) has far more NCC (or whatever the current term is) available than places to carry stuff! (The gvwr of my rig is 14050; current rigs have 14500.) I go down the road under 12000, so the rig is far under its max.
I do have Bilsteins, a Safe-T-Plus, and heavy-duty front and rear anti-sway bars (was IPD, now Roadmaster). I did not install any aftermarket items (except the Bilsteins, which were installed before delivery) until I had driven the rig for over 5000 miles on many different roads/road conditions.
The 24' is a versatile size, ample enough for comfortable living and traveling for one person or two "compatible" people. It goes/stops/camps/parks/turns just about anywhere; almost all "fit" limitations are due to its width, not its length, and all LDs are the same in that respect. (Disclaimer: I travel solo with a medium-sized dog; it's a push on who takes up more space.)
LD makes fewer 24s than any other size/model, AFAIK, which is one reason why "newer" 24s (2003 and after E-450 V-10s) are seldom on the market.
The small rig works for me; if I were to order a new LD (not happening), I'd get another 24'.
YMMV.
Joan
I called and they have a 27 mid bath on the floor to look at.
I think i will go and look and drive next week.
One of the big problems that I'm sure your all aware of is that they are very backed up with orders.
They said about 9 to 12 months till delivery. I hate to waste a year waiting to start traveling. But i'm sure
all of you that ordered new had to practice patience.
Regards
Genze,
14 months from deposit to delivery for us. That was 2014 to 2015 and beyond. Patience? Gave me time to make friends and learn a few things.
As always, seeing is believing (another adage? Yikes!) try to see as many as you can prior to dropping the dime
'cause it's a sizable dime.
Good luck,
Kent
Many of the Class A gas rigs are offering Sumo Springs for better stabilization. Has anyone installed these on their LD?
While reading past posts, the above topic was discussed. Unless I missed the answer, I could not find a response to this question.
Here are links to four products which you might want to research:
SteerSafe.com (http://www.steersafe.com/)
Safe T Plus Steering Control / RV & Truck Steering Stabilizer (https://www.safe-t-plus.com/)
https://www.shockwarehouse.com/news/bilstein-steering-stabilizer.cfm
SumoSprings® by SuperSprings® International, Inc. (https://www.supersprings.com/products/sumosprings/)
Some owners have no aftermarket steering or "shock" installations; they are satisfied with the tracking and handling of the LD as is. Others have installed steering stabilizers and/or aftermarket shocks and/or anti-sway bars on the front and rear of their LDs. Whether to add one or more of these products is a personal decision, and making the right choices involves doing all the research.
One comment on the Safe-T-Plus steering stabilizer; understand that installing this stabilizer requires removing the OEM Ford stabilizer connections. The Safe-t-Plus uses proprietary connections; as far as I know, the Ford stabilizer connections can't be retro-fitted if they are removed.
I had a Safe-T-Plus installed on my 2003 after about 5000 miles of travel on all sorts of roads because I did not like the feel of the Ford "bump steer". The product has generally worked as advertised, but it requires more frequent adjustment to maintain a "straight line" than I think it should. At the time I installed the Safe-T-Plus, the Bilstein steering stabilizer (using the Ford OEM connections) was not available; that steering stabilizer would be my choice now.
As always, YYMV.
Hi Joan
Is this the Bilstein Steering Stabilizer you were referring to?
Amazon.com: Bilstein 24-174534 B8 5100 Steering Damper Front B8 5100... (https://www.amazon.com/Bilstein-24-174534-Steering-Damper-Front/dp/B007N6QIVE)
And do you have a specific reason that you would choose this vs. the other?
I am considering the install, and value your opinion.
Cheers!
Tony R (aka codefour)
The Bilstein steering damper is the B8-5100; this is the model for my 2003 - if the original brackets were still there! Check for application for your model year. The dampers are available from Summit Racing, Rock Auto, and a few other sources in addition to Amazon. Larry W. has a Bilstein steering damper installed on his 2003 FL; maybe he will provide his experience with this damper.
More Information for BILSTEIN 24174534 (https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=6321159&cc=1420298&jsn=453&_nck=ZExt1ysfqhqWnq%2BEvUNdS3Txyey60IDtnjPWF5UU9J0BWQv7pvqZbkEUk86%2BAYIhteHnM8iYlR48lGOaXROq14PcihEVDn8NlvJFQarT3LlWJ65Ez0LpbQ%2Bh3De7ajUxJnCJDbLqy9U%2FdERF%2FB0uuRM0MXX48YQjf4N5moZVqZe6sCBWgSvbVCOXkVPOSxDfu6m5zlBVTYAS%2FENkb%2FLf6kG3MJVIk5Nlt5Fbm65HsUTMIS18ARP9QzZ3BO0xQOjuSStSR6vI4lB%2FN3jqET86JsPNcdGWkVd%2F6GK2POdP%2FCr9TBC03AaK2hx4IlGVRf4qCKNaK9I7kc6VZTGwY5BNkpltA91br9DM)
A bit of personal opinion - When my rig was new, I had Henderson Line-up evaluate it. Weighing all 4 corners, they found that the rear wheels matched, and the front wheels were 50 lbs. heavier on the right - nearly perfect balance. They found no need for any add-ons, nor have I ever felt the need for such. In those early days, I had my Michelin tires set at 65 front and 70 rear, per the tire manufacturer's recommendation, however each was based on a 5 psi range, using the lower value. There was some drift, particularly if a big rig passed me at highway speeds. Through experimentation I found that if I raised the tire pressures to 70 and 75, that drift disappeared.
My '08 MB has been used full time since November, 2008, it has nearly 90,000 miles on it, and the only steering or suspension modification I have done was, a few years ago, I replaced the factory shocks. I wanted Bilsteins, but they were back ordered. I went with Koni shocks. I did notice some improvement with the Konis, but that would be expected when replacing any worn set of shocks.
I have decided that 1) I do not know more about steering, suspension and handling that the Ford engineers, 2) the most critical factor in good handling is getting your rig balanced side to side, and 3) a well balanced, well maintained LD probably does not need any after market handling add-ons.
I am not suggesting that adding control enhancing components such as sway bars, steering stabilizers and so on, is wrong or a bad thing. It is a matter of personal choice. I simply believe they are usually not necessary.
Ken F in NM